Making Linux for Dummys

GazL · 07-14-2008, 12:30 PM

AmigaDOS had the best idea for disks. They had disk labels, so if you formatted a disk and put a label on it called DATA you could refer to files on it with something like DATA:/somefile.txt.

The really nice thing the amiga did was it would keep track of which disks were currently available and prompt the user to insert a disk if it needed to access a disk that wasn't currently mounted.

I've always considered this the right approach to handle removable media such as usb drives. Example...

cp somefiles* USBSTICK:
*** Please insert volume labelled USBSTICK ***
*** USBSTICK: mounted ***
copy finished.

You can partly achieve this sort of stuff with automount, udev, hal and the likes, but its not quite the same.

If linux did abandon the tradtional unix approach to how disks are mounted, then I'd much rather see something nice like the way the Amiga did it, than to addopt the crappy drive letter stuff that Microsoft DOS came up with.

As for the one location for programs to be installed under. There's already a standard for that. It's /opt and its described in the LSB, but very few people use it.

Bah, I miss my amiga.

Cuetzpallin · 07-14-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by resetreset

Drive letters are important. eg. if I plugged in my USB drive and I'm not in a GUI and I dont know where it's mounting the thing, how do I put something on it?

If you are mounting your USB stuff from CLI usually you need to type
mount (device) (location)

So, you know where to find it, isn't?

weibullguy · 07-14-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher69b

Like many of you I would like to see linux become more mainstream.

I think we need to verify this assumption before we worry about what is standing in the way of that goal. Personally, I really don't give a hoot if Linux becomes more mainstream. No where at kernel.org could I find any statement that would lead me to believe that the kernel devs are striving to be "more mainstream." The FSF's mission is to "promote computer user freedom and to defend the rights of all free software users." Nothing about making Linux (or free software in general) more mainstream.

Maybe Linux is the OS created by geeks, for geeks, for evermore.

I think we need a poll to see how many in the community are actually concerned about Linux becoming more mainstream.

My

Cuetzpallin · 07-14-2008, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weibullguy

I think we need to verify this assumption before we worry about what is standing in the way of that goal. Personally, I really don't give a hoot if Linux becomes more mainstream. No where at kernel.org could I find any statement that would lead me to believe that the kernel devs are striving to be "more mainstream." The FSF's mission is to "promote computer user freedom and to defend the rights of all free software users." Nothing about making Linux (or free software in general) more mainstream.

Maybe Linux is the OS created by geeks, for geeks, for evermore.

I think we need a poll to see how many in the community are actually concerned about Linux becoming more mainstream.

My

Its done

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...stream-655716/

ErV · 07-14-2008, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by resetreset

Drive letters are important. eg. if I plugged in my USB drive and I'm not in a GUI and I dont know where it's mounting the thing, how do I put something on it?

1) Now imagine that USB drive has several partitions. Which one will have which letter?
2) There is a nice "mount" command which will inform where it is mounted.
3) If you are not in GUI, then you probably know where you've mounted it.
4) If you are in GUI, then you can see where drive is mounted, if you use decent desktop suite.

resetreset · 07-15-2008, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XavierP

But surely if you're using the CLI in your daily computer usage, you'd know where it is or how to find it?

yes, and if that CLI had a nice "D:\" in it, life would be very much better. (how to find it means really hunting that down for my distrib, there isnt a way to ask it - "where is the thing i just plugged in?")

resetreset · 07-15-2008, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XavierP

But surely if you're using the CLI in your daily computer usage, you'd know where it is or how to find it?

yes, and if that CLI had a nice "D:\" in it, life would be very much better. (how to find it means really hunting that down for my distrib, there isnt a way to ask it - "where is the thing i just plugged in?")

XavierP · 07-15-2008, 05:43 AM

The Windows drive letters are all pretty arbitrary though. If you didn't have a GUI on Windows (and comparing a CLI with Windows is pretty unfair, btw) how would you know where it was loaded?? You'd still have to run a command on the CLI to find out where the drive is. And Windows doesn't have a mount command!

watcher69b · 07-15-2008, 06:23 AM

i believe his point was that when you insert the device then it is mounted as /dev/<something>
I have this problem with my PC. It has 3 DVD-Rom drives. so when i go to mount i need to figure out which is which

USB is mounted as a SCSI (/dev/sdc1) device so that CAN be confusing, especially if you are using a SCSI drive or two...
maybe make it so that USB can mount as /dev/usbX

weibullguy · 07-15-2008, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher69b

USB is mounted as a SCSI (/dev/sdc1) device so that CAN be confusing, especially if you are using a SCSI drive or two...
maybe make it so that USB can mount as /dev/usbX

Write a udev rule to create usb device nodes at /dev/usbX. That problem is easy enough to solve.

ErV · 07-15-2008, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by resetreset

yes, and if that CLI had a nice "D:\" in it, life would be very much better. (how to find it means really hunting that down for my distrib, there isnt a way to ask it - "where is the thing i just plugged in?")

1) There is pwd command.
2) prompt can be customized. See if you can instert current directory in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher69b

i believe his point was that when you insert the device then it is mounted as /dev/<something>
I have this problem with my PC. It has 3 DVD-Rom drives. so when i go to mount i need to figure out which is which

1) KDE+hal supports drive automounting. You'll get drive icon on desktop when you insert disk in drive.
2) You can edit fstab entry for each drive, so you'll know which drive will be mounted in which directory.
3) Device can't be mounted at /dev/<something>. Normally device which IS /dev/something is mounted at a directory.

smoked kipper · 07-15-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher69b

2. Make applications end in .exe
Lets face it the daily user knows to click an .exe file and something will happen. They don't know what and they dont care as long as something,anything happens.

You can call your programs whatever you like. Rename them if you want:

Code:

find /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbin /usr/local/bin /usr/local/sbin -exec mv {} {}.exe \;

Heh heh.

But the system cannot force binaries to have an .exe extension (for one thing, it would not be tolerated by existing users). Mechanism, not policy. If you want to be told how to use your own property, this isn't the OS for you.

Quote:

3. Package installers.
One of the great things that M$ has is the .msi it really is a true blessing when you want to install or script an install. msi works on almost all versions of Windows no questions asked. Could someone contact the Linux distro makers and give them the hint that to the daily end user rpm, deb, tar, tar.Z, etc... is confusing. I understand what they all mean but again the average user would look at these extensions like a monkey with a math problem.

You're joking yeah? Linux package management can handle arbitrary depedencies, even upgrade the entire system with a single command. There is no comparison to Windows in this area.

Quote:

4. C:\Program Files
I just installed an game... now where the F%#@ is it? in Windows I would be in the Program Files directory. but Linux it could be ANYWHERE! /usr/local/games/ or wait maybe /usr/share/games/ or maybe it is in my home directory. Doesn't matter. I love the endless searches when i am trying to make a desktop icon(why one wasn't created when I installed is also beyond me). Most Linux noobees would too.

Unix/Linux has a well defined, stable, clear, and consistent file system layout with everything in it's proper place. This isn't going to change. Get over it. FSH

If you want to know where the files in a package go, then use the package managment system to list the package contents. That's what it's for.

Quote:

5. Drive letters (or numbers)
Most people making the jump from windows to Linux would love to see C:\
or even C
I like my /dev/sdb1 as much as the next guy, I really do. But the old hags in the records department will never figure out what means. they know that they go to C:\where ever and double click.
Perhaps when drives are mounted they could auto mount as C,D,E etc...

Drive letters are moronic. What should I care what drive/partition a file is on? Unix/Linux abstracts the filesystem from physical devices. This is one of the *core principals of unix*. This isn't going to change. Ever. A system that changes this is not unix and not Linux.

Quote:

The choice is hard; be largely unaccepted by the PC community, or dumb down the OS so that simple people can understand it (b/c the users aren't gettin' any smarter)

Um, option A. Hmm, wasn't that hard after all.

Free software, free software developers and free software users are not accountable to the "PC community". People develop free software to use themselves and they share it with other people who do likewise. They aren't going to change (themselves or their OS) to accomodate the requirements of random people with perhaps wildly differing expectations from a computer/OS.

In short, if you don't like it, don't use it. No one is trying to force you to use it, unlike some other "OS"...

springshades · 07-15-2008, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Unix/Linux has a well defined, stable, clear, and consistent file system layout with everything in it's proper place. This isn't going to change. Get over it.

This part is complete rubbish. If it were true, then installing one program in 5 different distros would put the program in the same place, but you're just as likely to have it end up in 5 different places with 5 different names.

However, the rest I pretty much agree with. Though, basing your file system off of the physical characteristics of your computer system makes just as much logical sense as any other naming convention. Probably more logical than most in fact, but it does create its own breed of issues. In the end it's all just a matter of interpretations/preferences.

If Linux is to become more aimed at the general public, it will not be accomplished by the open source community. A quick look at something like the KDE documentation (which has an overwhelming majority of the content aimed at developers rather than end users) will prove that to you. The ones interested in increasing the Linux install base are generally the companies interested in making money off of it.

Several distros including Xandros and some others are probably easier to run out of the box than Windows. If I were going to choose an OS for someone's grandma that had never touched a computer before, I'd probably choose Xandros in fact. However, it's just not aimed at the average home user that spends on average about 1-2 hours on the computer per day (a statistic I looked up at one point), regularly installs new software to try out, but has no clue about computer administration. Just look at the responses on this topic including things like if you want to install software, you're now acting as an administrator so you should learn everything that entails... or the idea that users should understand how the operating system functions before using a computer. Using that logic I probably shouldn't drive because I can't name every part involved in the ignition sequence and can't graph and label the complete otto cycle off the top of my head. Nor should I watch TV since the most complicated thing I can do with it is probably set the clock. I don't even know how modern TVs make light come out to be honest, lol.

Doctorzongo · 07-15-2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher69b

just a small rant...

Like many of you I would like to see linux become more mainstream. Luckily with the release of Vista, Microsoft has helped out a lot with that dream becoming reality.
Since I have dumped M$ 4 months ago here are some things that i have found over the last few months that I can recommend to help improve end user acceptance.

1. Ask for Linux at work.
Simple but true. When I deploy a server these days I put CentOS on it. I It saves the company time, money and reduces the amount of over all Windows servers I have to deal with.
This is a good way to go

2. Make applications end in .exe
Lets face it the daily user knows to click an .exe file and something will happen. They don't know what and they dont care as long as something,anything happens.

In Linux, wouldn't that be the .sh, .run, .bin, etc.? I think
most people who are not technical enough to use Linux will be using a graphical desktop such as GNOME or KDE -- in which the executable files are clearly marked

3. Package installers.
One of the great things that M$ has is the .msi it really is a true blessing when you want to install or script an install. msi works on almost all versions of Windows no questions asked. Could someone contact the Linux distro makers and give them the hint that to the daily end user rpm, deb, tar, tar.Z, etc... is confusing. I understand what they all mean but again the average user would look at these extensions like a monkey with a math problem.

Isn't the .rpm and .deb the Red Hat and Debian versions of the .msi? If you pick a particular distribution, it is going to have it's own package system. Deal with it.

4. C:\Program Files
I just installed an game... now where the F%#@ is it? in Windows I would be in the Program Files directory. but Linux it could be ANYWHERE! /usr/local/games/ or wait maybe /usr/share/games/ or maybe it is in my home directory. Doesn't matter. I love the endless searches when i am trying to make a desktop icon(why one wasn't created when I installed is also beyond me). Most Linux noobees would too.

You can launch the application by command line, right? So, couldn't you simply create a link to your desktop? There are also search utilities. I think most people can find an application on their own, as well. It's really not hard.

5. Drive letters (or numbers)
Most people making the jump from windows to Linux would love to see C:\
or even C
I like my /dev/sdb1 as much as the next guy, I really do. But the old hags in the records department will never figure out what means. they know that they go to C:\where ever and double click.
Perhaps when drives are mounted they could auto mount as C,D,E etc...

This makes no sense. Why would this be an improvement over the self-explanatory and logical UNIX file system?

The choice is hard; be largely unaccepted by the PC community, or dumb down the OS so that simple people can understand it (b/c the users aren't gettin' any smarter)

These are horrible suggestions. You are trying to turn Linux into Windows.

ErV · 07-15-2008, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Linux for Dummys

I think "Dummies" do not need something like "Linux" or "Windows" or whatever. Since Dummies shouldn't (because they can break things up) try to bother with installation of software and OS, maintenance of software, etc.
IMHO the ideal Computer/OS "for dummies" would be something like this:
1) Computer comes with standard program package. Package includes everything "Dummy" normally needs - IM client, E-mail client, Graphic Editor, Graphic Viewer, Music Player, Video Player, Internet Browser. The "box" have fixed specifications, so every two users will have identical systems (both software/hardware).
2) The operating system and all packages are already preinstalled on read-only drive, where they can't be changed at all. I.e. nothing can ever be installed, uninstalled, or modified. Read-write drive is used as a replacement of /home folder. Such setup allows newbie user to do anything without risk of damaging system. I.e. even if user wipes out all files on a read-write disk, system should boot normally, with all programs still available and working. Anyone that needs to change programs, install other/alternative programs, etc. is no longer a "Dummy" and can consider buying "real" computer.

I.e. this is something like "sony playstation" with a fixed operating system + program suite installed on DVD. You can't modify programs and OS (so you can't break it, and you don't have to bother with installation/maintenance), but you can work with photos, office documents, use internet, email, etc.(documents are stored on your local partition), etc.

I think this will be ideal for "dummies" and anything else will require somewhat advanced user.