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Old 12-21-2013, 06:32 PM   #16
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good riddance to a [mod edit] OS

Last edited by onebuck; 12-21-2013 at 07:29 PM. Reason: remove offensive word
 
Old 12-27-2013, 06:57 PM   #17
ReaperX7
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Windows 7 wasn't a bad OS at all. It actually got it right. To me it was the best OS from Microsoft since Windows 2000 Professional was released. I loathed Vista and XP both. I think I reinstalled XP at least 55 times on a single PC once.

I don't think it would be wise to switch existing in-usage hardware over to GNU/Linux from Windows XP. Newer hardware is going to be inexpensive, whereas getting replacement parts for older systems could become hit or miss as drivers for XP are technically drying up. To say GNU/Linux would be a good extension of those systems would be foolish. Eventually a system is going to break down and will have to be replaced, and on those new machines most corporations still are offered Windows 7 Professional or Enterprise, not 8.1.

The problem comes from administration. Admins of systems would have to relearn a completely different OS with GNU/Linux. It wouldn't be easy to transition as to say Windows 7 which would require only some brushing up.

Cost effective, GNU/Linux would be blessedly ideal, but then you have to retrain admins to be GNU/Linux admins and get them certified which in turn costs money also.

It wouldn't be an easy decision to switch on any grounds.
 
Old 12-27-2013, 07:13 PM   #18
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And the beat goes on

Moving a city to Linux needs political backing, says Munich project leader
 
Old 12-28-2013, 07:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
I don't think it would be wise to switch existing in-usage hardware over to GNU/Linux from Windows XP. Newer hardware is going to be inexpensive, whereas getting replacement parts for older systems could become hit or miss as drivers for XP are technically drying up.
I've never seen a medium to large tech corporation whose IT policies even approach sanity. As an employee, you can't make sane IT decisions for yourself, you need to live within the boundaries defined by corporate IT. Where I work some of the relevant rules are:
1) Each employee officially has ONE desktop system. For most software engineers here the work requires Windows 7.
2) Any Windows system needs to run a set of anti virus and anti malware software so intrusive and vicious that it cuts the best computers to a small fraction of their expected performance and slower computers are cut to zero usability. It also indirectly, but totally, eliminates your ability to multi-task with prioritization. Any background job running (no matter how low priority) triggers high priority anti-malware activities, making interactive use of the computer impossible.
3) Almost every software engineer has an officially non existent second computer. Purchases of or for such non existent computers are strictly forbidden. Whatever is there can be used as long as local IT can cannibalize parts from retired systems to keep it running and no one officially informs corporate IT of the physical location of that off warranty system. There are plenty of retired systems similar enough that the occasional repair turns out to be easy. Such computers are useless for the build and test activities of a software engineer, but critical for interactive computer use while the real computer is doing build or test.

Sure, in a sane world, IT would understand that software engineers cost enough that when they need a second computer to work effectively, the cost of buying them a current supported second computer is trivial compared to the productivity loss of not doing so. In a sane world, IT would look at the COSTS of mandating excessive anti-malware measures and cut back to a level of anti-malware that does less harm than the mal-ware would have done. Then the second computers might not even be necessary. Meanwhile, in the real world, I'm trying to make the best of it. That includes figuring out how to use obsolete hardware for all my interactive tasks.

That is further complicated by my own disability of zero visual memory and zero "gibberish" memory. I am great at remembering concepts, but I cannot remember names or images or arbitrary strings of letters, even for a second or two. From years of experience programming, I have learned that to be effective, I need each part of what I'm doing visible on screen at once. I can't look at something, then switch windows covering up what I just looked at, then use the information I just covered in the window I opened on top of it. So I'm always pushing the limits of total screen size (4x1920x1440 on my old interactive system plus 4x1200x1920 on my newer build and test system). Local IT has been very helpful within the limits permitted by corporate IT.

Quote:
The problem comes from administration. Admins of systems would have to relearn a completely different OS with GNU/Linux. It wouldn't be easy to transition as to say Windows 7 which would require only some brushing up.

Cost effective, GNU/Linux would be blessedly ideal, but then you have to retrain admins to be GNU/Linux admins and get them certified which in turn costs money also.
In many environments those concerns would be valid. But in many others, including here, a large part of the infrastructure runs on headless Linux servers. Even though almost every workstation is Windows, the IT staff need quite a lot of Linux expertise. I don't know if any of them have formal Linux certifications. Our local IT guy certainly doesn't. He is a smart and motivated long-time Windows IT person who came up to speed on Linux very quickly when he landed in our mixed environment and found corporate IT gave him zero support nor training for Linux. Today, IT (local or corporate) has near zero expertise in setting up Linux workstations. Those few employees with Linux workstations mostly fend for themselves. But IT knows how to handle NIS and SAMBA and auto mounts and lots of other stuff (that I don't know myself).

We have a quite strange dichotomy in IT policies. Every office has both Windows and Linux. For Windows workstations and the few Windows servers, corporate IT takes total control of almost every software detail, leaving local IT in charge of only the hardware, not software. Any software problem is dealt with (eventually) remotely by a specialist in that topic. For Linux systems, every local IT person fends for himself, constrained by only a few policies applying to only a few special servers. Even though the same Linux software issues must be solved again in each office, corporate IT provides no guidance (and fortunately very little interference).
 
Old 12-28-2013, 07:36 AM   #20
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This is a really excellent thread. It's raising all sorts of issues that people, and particularly ones responsible for businesses and corporations, need to consider sooner or later. I never understand why a company upgrades from one Windows product to another. It's just too expensive, and Linux really offers a great alternative, depending on the company's needs. In many respects, though, open source software just isn't polished enough to replace certain Microsoft or other closed-source products. LibreOffice is fine for basic word processing, but the developers need to add modules to provide added functionality, modules that would be added as needed so as not to bog down the whole product for those who won't use the added features.

I tried Windows 7 for the first time just in 2012 and was actually pleasantly surprised. I've used XP for years at work -- Mac and Linux at home -- and it's fine, but I never liked it. Windows 7 seemed to get the desktop experience right. Contrast that with Centos, which one of the other readers of this thread has been using, and I'd certainly prefer Windows 7. Centos, to me, is a server distribution, not a desktop distribution. Do yourself a favor and try Lubuntu or Linux Mint.

If I were in charge at work, I'd have all our systems running something like Linux Mint. There's a chicken and egg problem with Linux: Current SysAdmins are used to Windows and don't have time to learn Linux, but they won't learn Linux until their employers tell them they're switching to Linux. I'm hoping that happens, in companies or government agencies that aren't too dependent on certain "polished" software features, and I'm hoping that I'll have the skills by then to step into one of those Linux SysAdmin jobs. In the meantime I'll try to help create one of those LibreOffice modules.
 
Old 12-28-2013, 01:32 PM   #21
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"Today, IT (local or corporate) has near zero expertise in setting up Linux workstations. Those few employees with Linux workstations mostly fend for themselves."

To be fair IT has very little expertise in Windows desktop either. I've lost count of the number of times I've taken a computer away from IT who were about to "re-image" it and fixed it myself because they've got no diagnostic abilities whatsoever.
 
Old 12-28-2013, 04:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baldy3105 View Post
To be fair IT has very little expertise in Windows desktop either. I've lost count of the number of times I've taken a computer away from IT who were about to "re-image" it and fixed it myself because they've got no diagnostic abilities whatsoever.
I was actually talking about local vs. corporate IT in the company where I work, not speculating about the common conditions.

Based on what I know from my past employers and from places my friends have worked or currently work, I would estimate the aggressively destructive (of productivity) corporate IT where I work represents a higher level of competence than ordinary for large tech corporations. The local IT guy in the office where I work is better than any other IT person I've interacted with anywhere.

Back when I had enough influence (mainly at previous employers) I also often argued an IT expert out of the default plan of reimaging a Windows system, destroying all of the user's settings and a lot of recent work and all downloaded software installs. Then I had to solve the original problem myself. Corporate IT (where I work) currently can't be argued into nor out of anything. The one recent time local IT decided a Windows workstation was too sick to fix and needed to be reimaged, I completely agreed. Windows steadily gets harder to diagnose, no matter how experienced and smart you might be.
 
Old 12-28-2013, 10:13 PM   #23
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Windows essentially has a self-fueled monopoly. I'm only in high school, but I'm great friends with the system admin. Most mornings when I get there early, I go to her office and help with whatever needs to be done. Once I asked why she didn't try to move the school to Linux instead of the Windows we currently use. She had actually tried that about 15 years ago when she first got there. I can't see what sounded bad about her offer to the school board: almost no licensing fees, no viruses/malware, re-use "old" computers not capable of running the newest version of Windows. They said "No, stick with Windows." Why? The high school is designed to prepare us for college, and then a job in the real world. That sounds good, right? Well, according to the school administration, computers in "the real world" equals "the newest version of Windows."

However, that was a decade and a half ago. She admitted that if she asked again, they might say "Yes." But there is another problem that she pointed out, and it makes (some) sense to me: the teachers only understand Windows, and they are afraid of being forced out of their comfort zone and into unfamiliar territory, without even trying it. Next year, we'll be getting Chromebooks, and she said that in 2 or 3 years, she'll ask about Linux again. Once they realize that the Chrome OS is built around a Linux core, they might realize that it might not be such a bad idea.

But back to my main point: The school teaches for the future (aka Windows). The businesses (usually) prefer to use a system that most people learn in school and need almost zero training with. It's an endless cycle. Hopefully more Linux-based technologies will make their way into schools, and then people will realize that Microsoft is (gasp) NOT the only way to write a letter.

But until our world learns to think, instead of memorizing a series of keystrokes and clicks, us Linux users are going to have to keep it up on the sidelines.
 
Old 12-28-2013, 10:48 PM   #24
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As for the capabilities of Open Office/Libre Office, I suggest you get a copy of the Windows version of Open Office. There is also a Portable Apps version of Open Office too. This way you can see for yourself under Windows what Open Office can and can't do. I've been using Open Office in XP for about 5 years and like it very much. It handles Microsoft Excel spreadsheets and Word documents quite well. I now also use the Linux version of Open Office with pretty much the same results.
 
Old 12-28-2013, 10:56 PM   #25
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How does Libre Office handle formulae in Excel-formatted spreadsheets though and is there and VBA support in Libre Office (not that I've any idea how these things are in the post-2010 MS product either)?
I recall writing VBScript(/VBA) to clean data from Excel spreadsheets for input into a Linux system and I know things like that still go on.
 
Old 12-30-2013, 07:30 PM   #26
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I doubt companies will go the linux route when XP retires. Their employees are already trained to use windows products and it would cost them money and productivity time to retrain their employees to use the LibreOffice suite. IMHO
 
Old 01-02-2014, 03:55 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post
Once the corporate user has selected a solid Gnu/Linux that will migrate without major fall over, will OpenOffice/LibreOffice be enough for a suite move for corporate?
What you fail to realize....realistically....
Is that most corporations that have their "unique" software handed to them from head office is based on Windows 5, Windows 6, Windows 7 platform. Most successful corporations play by a simple rule..."If you want to be a big boy, you have to play with the big boys, and pay the big boys". Which means....You're whacked if you think we are going to spend a large amount of cash to switch to another platform, our Windows based software is making us a living today, we are not prepared to loose profits for even a day switching our software to another platform, especially one that has no history in our line of business.
 
Old 01-02-2014, 04:24 AM   #28
Brains
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsfine View Post
I've never seen a medium to large tech corporation whose IT policies even approach sanity. As an employee, you can't make sane IT decisions for yourself, you need to live within the boundaries defined by corporate IT. Where I work some of the relevant rules are:
1) Each employee officially has ONE desktop system. For most software engineers here the work requires Windows 7.
2) Any Windows system needs to run a set of anti virus and anti malware software so intrusive and vicious that it cuts the best computers to a small fraction of their expected performance and slower computers are cut to zero usability. It also indirectly, but totally, eliminates your ability to multi-task with prioritization. Any background job running (no matter how low priority) triggers high priority anti-malware activities, making interactive use of the computer impossible.
3) Almost every software engineer has an officially non existent second computer. Purchases of or for such non existent computers are strictly forbidden. Whatever is there can be used as long as local IT can cannibalize parts from retired systems to keep it running and no one officially informs corporate IT of the physical location of that off warranty system. There are plenty of retired systems similar enough that the occasional repair turns out to be easy. Such computers are useless for the build and test activities of a software engineer, but critical for interactive computer use while the real computer is doing build or test.

Sure, in a sane world, IT would understand that software engineers cost enough that when they need a second computer to work effectively, the cost of buying them a current supported second computer is trivial compared to the productivity loss of not doing so. In a sane world, IT would look at the COSTS of mandating excessive anti-malware measures and cut back to a level of anti-malware that does less harm than the mal-ware would have done. Then the second computers might not even be necessary. Meanwhile, in the real world, I'm trying to make the best of it. That includes figuring out how to use obsolete hardware for all my interactive tasks.

That is further complicated by my own disability of zero visual memory and zero "gibberish" memory. I am great at remembering concepts, but I cannot remember names or images or arbitrary strings of letters, even for a second or two. From years of experience programming, I have learned that to be effective, I need each part of what I'm doing visible on screen at once. I can't look at something, then switch windows covering up what I just looked at, then use the information I just covered in the window I opened on top of it. So I'm always pushing the limits of total screen size (4x1920x1440 on my old interactive system plus 4x1200x1920 on my newer build and test system). Local IT has been very helpful within the limits permitted by corporate IT.



In many environments those concerns would be valid. But in many others, including here, a large part of the infrastructure runs on headless Linux servers. Even though almost every workstation is Windows, the IT staff need quite a lot of Linux expertise. I don't know if any of them have formal Linux certifications. Our local IT guy certainly doesn't. He is a smart and motivated long-time Windows IT person who came up to speed on Linux very quickly when he landed in our mixed environment and found corporate IT gave him zero support nor training for Linux. Today, IT (local or corporate) has near zero expertise in setting up Linux workstations. Those few employees with Linux workstations mostly fend for themselves. But IT knows how to handle NIS and SAMBA and auto mounts and lots of other stuff (that I don't know myself).

We have a quite strange dichotomy in IT policies. Every office has both Windows and Linux. For Windows workstations and the few Windows servers, corporate IT takes total control of almost every software detail, leaving local IT in charge of only the hardware, not software. Any software problem is dealt with (eventually) remotely by a specialist in that topic. For Linux systems, every local IT person fends for himself, constrained by only a few policies applying to only a few special servers. Even though the same Linux software issues must be solved again in each office, corporate IT provides no guidance (and fortunately very little interference).
If you're not on drugs....you should be.
 
Old 01-02-2014, 06:41 AM   #29
onebuck
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@ Brains

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When posting in an existing thread, ensure that what you're posting is on-topic and relevant to the thread. If the content of your post will interfere with the current discussion, you should start a new thread.
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:39 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
How does Libre Office handle formulae in Excel-formatted spreadsheets though and is there and VBA support in Libre Office (not that I've any idea how these things are in the post-2010 MS product either)?
I recall writing VBScript(/VBA) to clean data from Excel spreadsheets for input into a Linux system and I know things like that still go on.
It should be the same as Open Office as it's a fork of Open Office. There are some minor differences in the user interface. It's been two years since I last used Libre Office to remember the exact differences though. Also Kspread from the KDE desktop appears to be able to open Open Office Spreadsheets. Kword might be able to open Open Office documents as well. I haven't checked them for Microsoft Office combatibility however.
 
  


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