So I use Linux, because I like it and for my own reasons. I am by no means an expert, the type of distro I use, I would probably call myself experienced but thats probably putting it generously.

Truth is I don't even roll my own packages(write build scripts/etc), considering the distro I use. I just use downloaded build scripts and build from source; but again I don't take a source and make my own build script I wouldn't know where to begin, but along the way I have learned a few things and I am generally satisfied with my level of progress, albeit it is not probably as much as you might think considering the amount of years I have been using Linux.

There are plenty of distros out there for different goals and needs, and of course have different levels of simplicity to complexity.

What generally worries me the most these days, is not really so much the technical progress or 'lack-there-of' to some, but it comes down to the community. I stumbled upon a rather interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x72CANa6X6k (and I did watch the entire length and I recommend you do too).

If I were someone from the outside considering dipping my toes into the world of Linux and came across this video, I would probably turn back and not give Linux a second thought.

I am not really talking so much about all the infighting in the development of the kernel itself, and Torvalds' rather direct manor causing some developers to leave; but this is at the user level itself. The guy in the video (which again I do hope you watched), is by no means a simple 'noob', and from what I have gotten in his video he raises a rather good point that to me is what potentially holding Linux back.

Giving simple input, and he gets banned for it? As you see in his video he is obviously not the only one having issues with said installer; others echo but he is pretty much silenced by being banned. It is no longer the just the same regurgitation of 'RTFM' 'you just don't know what you are doing, lol', raising a legitimate issue and he gets banned, the hell?

I find it disconcerting that this is the direction the community might be heading, and that outsiders already see this as; a rather elitist arrogant user base. Again, we are not talking about the development of the kernel itself is, it is already clear how the tone is set there, this is just another distro project by a person who is not a developer of the kernel itself, but seems to have adopted the same type of attitude.

Propriety and closed projects be damned, to me this kind of in-fighting and cancerous behavior is a lot more dangerous, and will just end up hurting Linux more than any outside entity (Microsoft and others), could ever dream of. After all, why do a direct attack, when it can just eat itself up from the inside.

In the video he also touches the fact that it is just not consistent. I can also somewhat attest to that. Two machines, potentially with the exact same hardware configuration and exact same distro and configuration can exhibit such differences in issues is well, yea rather disheartening in someways. Still that is minor, compared to the community.

Any sort of legitimate issue raised by the end-user usually is met with:

• Ridicule
• Bashing the user
• Dismissing of the user's issue
• Outright hostility to drive said user away
• Silencing

So if that is from someone who has the technical knowledge to use Linux is dealing with, what incentive does someone who is just looking to get away from Windows or Mac?

I don't fault the guy either for using Windows, as for him at the end of the video, it just works for him, great.

Linux is awesome, and I do like using it and it is interesting but I do think that there is a problem in some circles. I haven't necessarily seen it here on LQ (*knocks on wood*) , but again if Linux has this image of an elitist system, why would anyone want to venture on trying it? The so-called freedom against proprietary and the big back Microsofts and Apples of the world will mean nothing, if the community are complete douchebags.

Thoughts?

WOW.
Issues with a 1-dev hand-holding 3rd party installer for Arch, and all of linux is [being interacted with intercourse-wise].

The Architect dev did seem to act like a [male sexual organ located in the lower abdominal area], but then, [said organ]'s are everywhere.
The user, for example, is also a [ditto].
Consumer attitude. No clue how hardware support might be problematic in some cases.
Of course there is no-one having any issues with windows...
Or can't get drivers for a 2 year old printer...

Well what I am getting at, lets say I am just a typical Windows user, and I am thinking of making the jump to an Ubuntu-based distro; what incentive do I have to post any issues that I am having if there is a danger that the community I am posting to will be less than helpful and more of someone just hitting me over the proverbial head with RTFM, or 'aaawww, you just don't know what you are doing, its your fault.'

I am not saying Linux is 'fscked' just by that one single Architect dev, but at the same time it only takes the first impression to scare others away.

I again don't see anything that this guy did was wrong, he even admitted his own mistakes and calmly and politely offered his own input, and he gets banned for it. Again, if I were a newcomer from Windows, if I saw this, what incentive would there be for me to just stick with it? 'Get a tougher skin?' ; I am not saying that the community should outright be completely hand holding, but if one is raising an issue and has legitimate issues and just wants help, why should that person get the brunt of it?

Again, this user was no noob and just offered his experience with this installer and outright got banned. Sorry but thats not how a community should be. Again, cancer from within is more dangerous. Yes people can be dicks, and I am not suggesting that the community should be outright feathers and pillows, but this kind of attitude isn't helpful either. Especially if one is more technically proficient at Linux and can even offer valuable input.. Just my

That's typically about 90% of the problem - it's a mindset that comes through clearly in said "there's a problem with your distro" first posts and tends to draw said negative reactions.Well, I'm not "recruiting", and don't see any point "selling" "Linux" to windows users - it's a (community developed) tool(set) not a religion, so if it fits your use case, great, if not, fine too.insofar as doing the same thing several times and getting the same result, and claiming the "product" was faulty.
Clearly, being in the problems and bugs section, some troubleshooting and triage steps should have been suggested, and maybe would have been given time and if the (single) dev was having a better day, or some other users stepped up.Agree, it's bad form, but it's his site so he can run it his way - presumably that's why it's a one man project...They shouldn't. But they also shouldn't get mugged walking down the street, or ripped off by greedy bankers, or bombed by foreigners who want their oil or whatever, but it all happens.Disagree - he fairly clearly is.Agree, but he has a right to run it that way if he wants.Well, one of the "problems" with free speech is that people can say stuff you don't like.

Just FTR about 1 year into using Linux. coming up on 20 years ago, I habituated a couple of Linux oriented channels on IRC. I asked a question I thought was good and upom digging deeper someone said "It's not my fault you have a ghetto box". Thereupon I listed my "leet" hardware to which he responded "I'm not talking about hardware. Your box is ghetto because you're a clueless admin."

Naturally at first I was hurt and maybe a bit pissed off, but soon I realized he was right or I wouldn't have been asking such a basic question. Instead of bailing I vowed to become knowledgeable and I did. I am not defending this harsh attitude since I'm convinced it can be done with far less ego and condescending attitude. However the fact remains he put the ball in my court and I chose to not run home, crying to Mom, but rather use it to my advantage. Success.... the ultimate revenge.

This was my thought.
I couldn't watch the whole video because I would have felt like posting on the guy's blog to tell him to stop being an idiot.
You're not paying for Linux so don't expect "customer service" -- that's the rubbish you pay people to give you. Yes, there are people who don't really help you with Linux and just insult but, in the main, most people do help and if you're not able to see past any "attitude" on the part of somebody helping you then go an pay Microsoft or Apple for help instead.
Yes, this may be why "the year of the Linux desktop" isn't happening but, frankly, the kind of consumer who wants "customer service" only damages a product so Linux is better off without them.

I know what you mean but have a different take on all of this.

On my motorcycle. I do not ride with ingrates, ever. Been doing that since the 70's. Back when they, (motorcycles), were known to leak oil, be unreliable transport, and the folks that rode them were known to be the unpleasant sort. Never took showers. That kind of thing.

What is funny, it still went mainstream. So ingrates, flotsam, and jetsam showed up. I would not worry about being destroyed from within.

More likely. Destroyed from without. As GNU/Linux pretty soon adds so many binary code blobs to attract Windows users while alienating linux users who like text files.

Gui this and that can be nice. But when they put a GPS UI screen on a motorcycle. I knew I was never going to buy a 2 wheel rocket with a screen having me looking down as I dive into a curve. GPS screen between the handlebars can be useful to some. But not me.

There are some distros I won't run for a similar reason (in a vague broad stroke kind of way)

Zorin is one of those. Free for a stripped version with developer bias. Paid version for a plug and play version. They are free to do as they wish. It is their show after all, so to speak. I am free to do what I want also. I wish them the best of luck.

Edit: posted from a systemd free distro.

Well I started to watch that video, but Jeesh! I really don't have 20 minutes to waste on some boring drivel. Luckily (I thought) there was a link where I could fast-read whatever I felt was helpful. Only to find that the conversation had been removed, apparently from Google+?

So I don't know. One angry new user. Seems like he spent as much time as somebody who got screwed out of one measly dollar does when they decide that no matter what, they are taking this up to the Supreme Court.

From my perspective, someone like that may come across as very organized and thoughtful. I saw "boring", and my cynicism told me that somewhere along the line I was going to find that things got out of hand, likely both sides of the hands, this guy and the person(s) offering help. He probably pushed too far, they probably reacted badly. And it's all "Whatever!"

Unfortunately I think this is the junk that cops end up dealing with when there are dumb arguments which get out of hand and they get called. Either there were lethal weapons around or not, is the classification of how serious the situation gets, or got, by the time they arrived.

So the guy got banned ... apparently. I'd ban him too if he wished to bore me to death about something.

Thanks, this made me chuckle.

By the way (not related to the quote above), my post above may have come across as if I think Linux is, perhaps, a little elitist or shouldn't be newbie friendly. I certainly don't feel that way and think anybody who wants to use Linux should be helped but I also think that anyone who is helped (and I'm myself have been, a lot) ought to be a least a little grateful for the help (I am very grateful) and ought not really to criticise something they may not be in full possession of the facts about. I think the Linux community, as a whole, is friendly and helpful to those who are willing to help themselves and don't demand help with every detail.
I have been, and probably will always be, somebody who is very vocal about things which aren't working or are a bad design -- when I'm paying for them or told I have to use them to get my job done. I absolutely feel that when one purchases something or is given something by an employer to work with it should be fit for purpose and one has every right to moan. However, I also believe that "beggars can't be choosers" and if you're getting something without payment* then part of the bargain is that you don't have a right to disrespect it and demand free support.


*If you're a contributor of time and/or expertise I would say that counts as paying for the purposes of this discussion.

I ran across a post by the Architect Developer about this. While one can make whatever one wants of what he says as well, he does have some links in his post, including a link to the YouTube video in the first post of this thread. This stuff is not a Linux thing. People do it everywhere. It's a people thing.

The video has been pulled but if I remember correctly there's a bit of history between him and the Arch folks and I'm not sure it was in the video. I don't hang out on the Arch forums so my knowledge of this incident is only passing but it did spill over onto other social media quite a while ago. This is an ongoing spat and it will likely continue but I don't think will hurt the larger Linux community much because new folks aren't going to be googling Arch Linux. Internally I think must of us tune out the Arch zealots of which there are many on social media.

Really? Perspective, dude. First-world problems. At the end of the day, a bunch of geeks circle-jerking over an OS doesn't mean squat.

Wait! You mean it's not the end of the world??

No. I don't find that a single guy on youtube represents the entire community. One guy working on a tiny distribution also doesn't represent every other distribution.

If some newbie, delicate flower, finds a fringe distro and gets upset because it's understaffed and he has weird hardware, there's nothing anyone can do about that. You really can't pad all the corners.

There's a certain forum dedicated to Linux Questions, I don't know if you've heard of it, but... most of the people are pretty nice and if you allow them to, they can really help you out with your operating system.

Distros like the *buntus, fedora, PClinuxOS all do their best to make the transition to linux simple as possible with support for as many hardware as possible. But, if the user has an unusual type or very new hardware, there can be some issues. And this is not the fault of linux, certain hardware manufacturers are still reluctant to support linux.

Which is why you have to ask or research if your hardware will work in linux.

For example, when my Dell B1160W laser printer didn't work using the opensource drivers. I didn't rant or complain that linux sucks and everything. I was disappointed it didn't work, but that's about it.

I did my research and found out that dell had a printer driver for linux. I downloaded, read the instructions and behold my dell printer work.

Ever since then, I will always ask or research before buying any new hardware. And if there isn't any info on the hardware being used in linux, I'd take a gamble and buy it and hope it works or I'll just return it.