Spin off from 'What version of Python 3.x should ship with Slackware 15.0?'

lovemeslk · 10-21-2021, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pithium

I'm going to pick on this one belief.

Pat is NOT lazy. The average # of packages he updates/upgrades/adds/patches on a monthly basis has significantly increased in recent years.

He working more on Slackware than he has at any point in Slackware's history. This includes updates to -current and maintenance patches for 14.x.

This opinion comes from tracking line items in the Changelog and counting them by timeframe.

OK you have a good point. Thank you.

Pithium · 10-22-2021, 12:38 AM

Once python stabilizes I'll get back to working on my statistics site to give more people access to that data.

Unlike PV, I am lazy and don't have enough reason to rebuild the entire python stack for 3.9 so that all the tools work. I'd have to manually pull the csv from the database to back up my claim and I really don't feel like doing that right now

lovemeslk · 10-22-2021, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pithium

Once python stabilizes I'll get back to working on my statistics site to give more people access to that data.

Unlike PV, I am lazy and don't have enough reason to rebuild the entire python stack for 3.9 so that all the tools work. I'd have to manually pull the csv from the database to back up my claim and I really don't feel like doing that right now

You made a great point.
And Pat did not Wait for SoftLanding Linux System to get with it.
He just did it.
Makes my point we all get overwhelmed in life. We all get fatigued. people Like you and I all we have is a Changelog and A file list.
.
So make my own not the issue. At times we are all lazy. I never think of PV as a leader.
Just a man that's loves good beer and Grateful dead. No more no less.

The huge amount of work the Whole team has done I am grateful.
Especially Eric's work god for bid you miss spell his last name in here.
I love Willy's Mate and Cinnamon just good stuff. love Slackbuilds.
Ponces stuff is beyond what one would believe.

Frank's work is huge. Richards work is fabulous. go on all day.
I gave an honest opinion and waited for the bully.

I have been nothing but Kind to Bass no matter how many times I thought he was rude to me and others in here.
I do not like Bullies.

igadoter · 10-22-2021, 05:42 AM

@lovemeslk stop "lazy" yours. You have no idea how bad are your posts about 'laziness'. I don't believe Mr. Volkerding is by any means 'lazy'. Just people came here and spread some nonsense. lovemeslk is not worst case I remember. There is no need to make any points - to provide arguments. You just don't discuss utter nonsense. Besides I have no idea what do you mean by 'lazy'. To work one day/week instead of two days/week? six hours/day instead of twelve/day? lovemeslk you accused other of trolling and similar. But in fact it is you who put this thread in flames. And my impression is that you did this totally for your ... enjoyment? These your own nicknames in your posts addressing some people here. I really now fight temptation to use more harsh words. Oh I just reminded "The Brothel for Slating Intellectual Lusts". There is person Kimasxi Adder-Tongue. She gives some idea about harsh language. Now I have to fight myself. All because of your inflaming posts. So if you want to discuss python, ok but drop this 'lazy' - you know what.

Jan K. · 10-22-2021, 08:23 AM

Click user name, click "public profile", click "user list" in profiles, click "ignore user"...

Too lazy here wasting any more time on that troll...

marav · 10-22-2021, 08:49 AM

I don't see any goal or interest in this thread

Even if PV is lazy, go and get a less "lazy maintainers" distribution, no ?

anyway, I like his lazyness :-)

~9600 pkgs upgraded/rebuilt/removed/added in 2021

Code:

root:changelog/ # grep txz changeLog.2021.txt  | wc -l
    9601

Code:

root:changelog/ # grep txz changeLog.2021.txt  | grep Added | wc -l
      48
root:changelog/ # grep txz changeLog.2021.txt  | grep Upgraded | wc -l
    5594
root:changelog/ # grep txz changeLog.2021.txt  | grep Removed | wc -l
      11
root:changelog/ # grep txz changeLog.2021.txt  | grep Rebuilt | wc -l
    3946

Didier Spaier · 10-22-2021, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marav

I don't see any goal or interest in this thread

Even if PV is lazy, go and get a less "lazy maintainers" distribution, no ?

I think your are missing the point of this thread. It is not about laziness (and this word was not used by the OP).

I have used Slackware since version 11.0, posted in this sub-forum more than 10000 times mostly to help fellow Slackware users, based a distribution on Slackware, and now I would not recommend a casual desktop user looking for a Linux distribution to choose Slackware any more as:

Slackware version 14.2 is completely outdated.
Slackware-current needs too much time just to be kept up to date (even more so if third party software is needed) and sort out its transitory instability.
Is the time needed to get acquainted with Slackware worth it when one doesn't know where Slackware is going?

Should I have refrained to express my disappointment? Maybe.

Windu · 10-22-2021, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marav

I don't see any goal or interest in this thread

Even if PV is lazy, go and get a less "lazy maintainers" distribution, no ?

I think you might miss the point then. It is undeniably true that Patrick Volkerding has been working hard on maintaining Slackware during these past couple of years. Also, delays in coming up with a new stable release may have been a result of his run-in with the Slackware Store and his obvious reluctance to share the proceedings with this community. Looking at Patreon, he earns a nice income now thanks to the donations of many Slackware users and supporters. I would think that the future of Slackware is secured.
And indeed I am quite happy with Slackware-current on my laptop, and I have no real need for the next stable release, except perhaps to have a DVD set in a cupboard and look at it with admiration from time to time.

However, there's people who run Slackware servers that provide network services. I gave that example in my previous post further up here. When you run Slackware servers you want stability. If you deploy 'modern' software on a server you will increasingly more frequently discover that software won't compile or run anymore on Slackware 14.2 - the most recent stable Slackware release.
Because of this, server admins may have no other option but to run Slackware-current. Then the nightmare begins of keeping that server up to date. You cannot simply NOT apply updates to Slackware-current, especially if your server can be reached over the Internet. Slackware addresses security vulnerabilities by updating relevant packages. On Slackware-current you can not selectively upgrade the packages that resolve a critical security issue; you need to update all the packages. That upgrade can cause breakage.
I don't mind a couple of days of breakage on my laptop and usually my web browser stays functional so my laptop is not useless. But imagine a server service which goes offline for a couple of days? The pain multiplies manifold.

marav · 10-22-2021, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windu

I think you might miss the point then. It is undeniably true that Patrick Volkerding has been working hard on maintaining Slackware during these past couple of years. Also, delays in coming up with a new stable release may have been a result of his run-in with the Slackware Store and his obvious reluctance to share the proceedings with this community. Looking at Patreon, he earns a nice income now thanks to the donations of many Slackware users and supporters. I would think that the future of Slackware is secured.
And indeed I am quite happy with Slackware-current on my laptop, and I have no real need for the next stable release, except perhaps to have a DVD set in a cupboard and look at it with admiration from time to time.

However, there's people who run Slackware servers that provide network services. I gave that example in my previous post further up here. When you run Slackware servers you want stability. If you deploy 'modern' software on a server you will increasingly more frequently discover that software won't compile or run anymore on Slackware 14.2 - the most recent stable Slackware release.
Because of this, server admins may have no other option but to run Slackware-current. Then the nightmare begins of keeping that server up to date. You cannot simply NOT apply updates to Slackware-current, especially if your server can be reached over the Internet. Slackware addresses security vulnerabilities by updating relevant packages. On Slackware-current you can not selectively upgrade the packages that resolve a critical security issue; you need to update all the packages. That upgrade can cause breakage.
I don't mind a couple of days of breakage on my laptop and usually my web browser stays functional so my laptop is not useless. But imagine a server service which goes offline for a couple of days? The pain multiplies manifold.

nope

1- I understood very well what was said, and I repeat, I do not see the point of this thread
Except a nice discussion between gentlemen

2- It is up to the user to adapt the choice of a distribution to his needs
Not the distribution to adapt to the user's needs

Slackware has never had a release plan.
The choice is therefore made with this parameter in mind

Windu · 10-22-2021, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marav

nope

1- I understood very well what was said, and I repeat, I do not see the point of this thread
Except a nice discussion between gentlemen

2- It is up to the user to adapt the choice of a distribution to his needs
Not the distribution to adapt to the user's needs

Slackware has never had a release plan.
The choice is therefore made with this parameter in mind

The choice then for everybody who is not a 'hobby user' but uses Slackware for serious multi-user work is to say farewell to Slackware and switch to a Linux distro (or a BSD variant) that does provide stable releases at not-too-long intervals.
No new release since 2016 is just sending bad signals. Admit it, Slackware is now a rolling-release distro. I do not want to be the one that has to manage servers with that installed.

RadicalDreamer · 10-22-2021, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windu

I think you might miss the point then. It is undeniably true that Patrick Volkerding has been working hard on maintaining Slackware during these past couple of years. Also, delays in coming up with a new stable release may have been a result of his run-in with the Slackware Store and his obvious reluctance to share the proceedings with this community. Looking at Patreon, he earns a nice income now thanks to the donations of many Slackware users and supporters. I would think that the future of Slackware is secured.

That is what I think. His income is okay depending on where he is. How often would you want a new stable? Every 2-3 years?

Windu · 10-22-2021, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadicalDreamer

That is what I think. His income is okay depending on where he is. How often would you want a new stable? Every 2-3 years?

I would be quite happy with a stable release every 2-3 years yes. Slackware 14.2 became really stale somewhere over a year ago.
Three years' release cycle is probably the sweet spot. I admire Patrick's persistence and I recognize that maintaining a distro is a complex undertaking. But I really miss maintenance releases in between major updates.

bassmadrigal · 10-22-2021, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisVV

I think this is implausible. You make a release by freezing updates (except for fixes) at some suitable point, issue some RCs, deal with the ensuing bug reports and get it out: this is a solved problem in software engineering. It is a matter of human volition, not a matter of being helplessly tossed on the storms of projects updating their releases at unfortunate moments so you can never get a release out.

I appreciate you feel you want to defend the author of the distribution, but get real. I think your perspective is wrong: for my part I respect the fact that the author of the distribution has his own priorities which he does not wish to share for some probably good reason, which means that you get to live with whatever emerges. Respecting that too is I think better than searching for other unlikely explanations.

I am as disappointed as others that Slackware has not seen a release in over 5 years. It is also frustrating not knowing the plans for Slackware and what caused the delay. Was it waiting for PAM? Was Pat working on PAM on his personal test station for years getting the PAM configuration to the spot he thought was right before pushing it out to the public? Maybe, maybe not.

All I'm saying is it is really easy to look back now and see that releases should've been made, but it's much harder to realize at the time that things were going to still be years away from a release.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovemeslk

This is a spin off read the Title. . All your knowledge about the Linux operating system what do you bring. Send me to your repo. Love to try your work.

I linked my SlackBuild repo (which is not in sync with SBo anymore, but it also holds the SlackBuilds that aren't on SBo) in the post you quoted. I also have my random scripts repo available. For my custom packages, I don't have them available, because I just took existing SlackBuilds and used them for the versions of software that I wanted to install. I probably still have the packages available in /tmp/ if you really think there is a benefit of making them public. However, it seems that most people who need newer software just decide to run -current. I don't want to do that because I don't have the personal time in my life to keep -current up to date and fix my broken 3rd-party packages when an update breaks them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovemeslk

I am not lazy you learned anything From your Plumber. It is the tools. If some one like me can do that 3 years ago and that is my stable build system then I drew a line in the sand.

Pretty sure I never called you lazy. I have no reason to call you lazy because I don't know what you're doing. If I did, please point it out so I can learn from it and try to not do it in the future. I try to refrain from name calling while I'm online.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovemeslk

You have No clue the amount of Work I took on. I come here for help and Yes Pat is lazy that is my "Honest" belief.

You're right, I don't have a clue what you've had to do. But just because you had to do a lot of stuff doesn't mean that Pat is lazy.

We actually had a thread about the activity in Slackware and how much faster paced development of 15.0 has been compared to previous versions. I even came up with commands to determine how many packages per day Pat has averaged when provided a ChangeLog.

-current is averaging 12.53 packages per day and 14.2 averaged 4.55 packages per day (before release... this doesn't count packages that were released as patches).

Code:

jbhansen@craven-moorhead:/share/gothrough/slackware-mirrors$ echo $(grep -e Upgraded\\. -e Added\\. -e Removed\\. -e Rebuilt\\. /share/gothrough/slackware-mirrors/slackware64-14.2/ChangeLog.txt | wc -l) / $(( (($(date -d "$(grep -B1 "14.2 x86_64" /share/gothrough/slackware-mirrors/slackware64-14.2/ChangeLog.txt | head -n1)" '+%s') - $(date -d "$(grep -A1 "+--" /share/gothrough/slackware-mirrors/slackware64-14.2/ChangeLog.txt | tail -n1)" '+%s') ) / (60*60*24)) )) | bc -l | xargs printf "14.2 averaged %.2f packages per day\n"
14.2 averaged 4.55 packages per day
jbhansen@craven-moorhead:/share/gothrough/slackware-mirrors$ echo $(grep -e Upgraded\\. -e Added\\. -e Removed\\. -e Rebuilt\\. /share/gothrough/slackware-mirrors/slackware64-current/ChangeLog.txt | wc -l) / $(( (($(date '+%s') - $(date -d "$(grep -a1 "+--" /share/gothrough/slackware-mirrors/slackware64-current/ChangeLog.txt | tail -n1)" '+%s') ) / (60*60*24)) )) | bc -l | xargs printf "-current averaged %.2f packages per day\n"
-current averaged 12.53 packages per day

So Pat has averaged almost 3x as many package changes per day during 15.0 development compared to 14.2 development. Even if we remove the "Rebuilt" option, he's still averaging 8.09 packages a day, so almost double 14.2's development. Hardly lazy in my mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovemeslk

https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...ml#post6293476

I'm seeing pip in the package database of my -current machine from 2019.

Code:

jbhansen@febtober:~$ grep bin/pip /var/lib/pkgtools/packages/*
/var/lib/pkgtools/packages/python-pip-19.1.1-x86_64-1:usr/bin/pip
/var/lib/pkgtools/packages/python-pip-19.1.1-x86_64-1:usr/bin/pip2
/var/lib/pkgtools/packages/python-pip-19.1.1-x86_64-1:usr/bin/pip2.7
/var/lib/pkgtools/packages/python-pip-19.1.1-x86_64-1:usr/bin/pip3
/var/lib/pkgtools/packages/python-pip-19.1.1-x86_64-1:usr/bin/pip3.7

And it shows in the MANFEST.bz2 of my up-to-date -current mirror:

Code:

jbhansen@craven-moorhead:/share/gothrough/slackware-mirrors$ bzgrep -i bin/pip slackware64-current/slackware64/MANIFEST.bz2
-rwxr-xr-x root/root       935 2021-10-11 16:41 usr/bin/pip
-rwxr-xr-x root/root       937 2021-10-11 16:41 usr/bin/pip3
-rwxr-xr-x root/root       943 2021-10-11 16:41 usr/bin/pip3.10
-rwxr-xr-x root/root       367 2021-08-22 22:36 usr/bin/pip2
-rwxr-xr-x root/root       371 2021-08-22 22:36 usr/bin/pip2.7
-rwxr-xr-x root/root     14640 2021-10-21 12:21 usr/bin/pipewire
-rwxr-xr-x root/root    720880 2021-10-21 12:21 usr/bin/pipewire-media-session
-rwxr-xr-x root/root     14640 2021-10-21 12:21 usr/bin/pipewire-pulse

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovemeslk

https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...14-4175701774/

This is also listed:

Code:

jbhansen@craven-moorhead:/share/gothrough/slackware-mirrors$ bzgrep -i libpng..\\.so slackware64-current/slackware64/MANIFEST.bz2
-rwxr-xr-x root/root    150296 2019-02-19 18:49 usr/lib64/libpng14.so.14.22.0
-rwxr-xr-x root/root    216112 2021-02-13 01:09 usr/lib64/libpng16.so.16.37.0
-rwxr-xr-x root/root    216112 2021-02-13 01:09 usr/lib64/libpng16.so.16.37.0

The first two come from aaa_libraries and the latter is from the libpng package. However, you're not going to see all the symlinks in the package database as those are logged in the script database (/var/lib/pkgtools/scripts/). (The below is from my 14.2 machine.)

Code:

jbhansen@craven-moorhead:/share/gothrough/slackware-mirrors$ grep libpng..\\.so /var/log/scripts/*
/var/log/scripts/aaa_elflibs-14.2-x86_64-23:( cd usr/lib64 ; rm -rf libpng16.so.16 )
/var/log/scripts/aaa_elflibs-14.2-x86_64-23:( cd usr/lib64 ; ln -sf libpng16.so.16.23.0 libpng16.so.16 )
/var/log/scripts/aaa_elflibs-14.2-x86_64-23:( cd usr/lib64 ; rm -rf libpng14.so.14 )
/var/log/scripts/aaa_elflibs-14.2-x86_64-23:( cd usr/lib64 ; ln -sf libpng14.so.14.18.0 libpng14.so.14 )
/var/log/scripts/aaa_elflibs-14.2-x86_64-23:( cd usr/lib64 ; ln -sf libpng14.so.14 libpng.so.14 )
/var/log/scripts/libpng-1.6.37-x86_64-1_slack14.2:( cd usr/lib64 ; rm -rf libpng16.so )
/var/log/scripts/libpng-1.6.37-x86_64-1_slack14.2:( cd usr/lib64 ; ln -sf libpng16.so.16.37.0 libpng16.so )
/var/log/scripts/libpng-1.6.37-x86_64-1_slack14.2:( cd usr/lib64 ; rm -rf libpng16.so.16 )
/var/log/scripts/libpng-1.6.37-x86_64-1_slack14.2:( cd usr/lib64 ; ln -sf libpng16.so.16.37.0 libpng16.so.16 )
/var/log/scripts/libpng-1.6.37-x86_64-1_slack14.2:( cd usr/lib64 ; ln -sf libpng16.so libpng.so )

perseus12 · 10-22-2021, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Didier Spaier

I think your are missing the point of this thread. It is not about laziness (and this word was not used by the OP).

I have used Slackware since version 11.0, posted in this sub-forum more than 10000 times mostly to help fellow Slackware users, based a distribution on Slackware, and now I would not recommend a casual desktop user looking for a Linux distribution to choose Slackware any more as:

Slackware version 14.2 is completely outdated.
Slackware-current needs too much time just to be kept up to date (even more so if third party software is needed) and sort out its transitory instability.
Is the time needed to get acquainted with Slackware worth it when one doesn't know where Slackware is going?

Should I have refrained to express my disappointment? Maybe.

You make a good point but I think the 'other' side will just not understand what you are saying.

I believe there are two sides to this discussion:
Side 1: those that feel Slackware, and therefore Pat by extension, is being attacked. This side feels that the OP and others that say the same thing are trying to change Slackware into something 'else' whatever that means to them. So they mostly (not all) get upset because they want Slackware to be whatever 'they think Pat wants'. But how many actually know what Pat wants?

Side 2: those that do not want to change Slackware, or dictate to Pat in any way. But for whatever reason it is important to get a stable release.

These two sides are just talking across each other and not TO each other.
Both sides have missed the other side's point of view.

So at the risk of getting frazzled, fried, and fulminated, I'm going to give my opinion:
Everyone here adores Pat. No one here wants to make Pat do anything he doesn't want to.
No one here wants Slackware-release, or Slackware-current to change in design approach.
There are some very long term users of Slackware (I started using SLS! then went to Slackware at end of 1992!) who have become reliant on a stable release of Slackware. I think that's reasonable.

After all it is a two way street. Pat provides to the public; public is appreciative, Pat feels good and keeps providing to public which causes public to feel even more good about Pat, which causes Pat to etc, etc. After so many years it is not fair to say to some these long term users... you know what just shutup. If you don't like it go away.

Side 1 who are you to speak for Pat? Let Pat say these things (if he wants to).
Side 1 you are fond of telling people to conform to some idea of Slackware, but where does this 'idea' come from? Where is the definition. And shouldn't the definition come from Pat only? You make it seem like you guys are the true Slackers, and therefore can speak for Pat.
Well you are not. There are many many types of Slackers, some of whom are actually on Side2!

Side 2 is really bad at expressing what it is asking for. Why does side 2 not just come out and say... something like:
"Dear Pat all we are asking for is a snapshot of current that works and please release that as 15. We promise to go away for another 5 years. We do not want Slackware to change. We do not want anyone but yourself to BDFL for eternity."

Come on side 1 what can be possibly wrong with that?

lovemeslk · 10-22-2021, 09:06 PM

Quote:

That is what I think. His income is okay depending on where he is. How often would you want a new stable? Every 2-3 years?

There was some huge precursors to changes that where in the wind 4 years ago. "Eric OMG do not miss spell his name" Took that on. He delivered the hardest work of that dev team.
Then I watched Willy do the same.
I watched the Maintainers of XFCE4 keep updated.
Then I watched Pat just try to catch up.
As I say Eric the top Team Dev in my books spoon fed Pat and Pat did not have time for it.
That is my point of view and watching the Mistakes that Eric made and fixed only to see Pat V do the same .
I even brought that to the attention in here LQ.
I said you need to Release 3 years ago do to the huge Problems with changes.
At this point I had to create my own 14.3 and 15.0 and now looking for 15.1 as I see it.
This was caused by two huge changes in the GLIBC and Huge changes from GCC 5.5.0 to the 8.0 to the 9.20 to the 11.0.

I am sorry but that is how the community works.
Pat can call My dad a Sock Puppet all he wants But he still has My Visa card on his server.
I have the First amendment right to speak Honestly.

The failure to draw a line in the sand is a big deal to people maintaining there work with Slackware.
I figured after 2 years he was burned out or personal issues.
So Like Eric did you pick up and try to get it to work.