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Old 05-25-2018, 02:32 PM   #16
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mill J View Post
From my viewpoint: Genetics play a huge part. Please be assured I'm not talking about human genetics.


It's a lot in the food.

GMO is genetically messing with stuff that shouldn't be messed with. For example: With corn. Today's farmers get a MUCH higher yields per acre than they did years ago. *BUT* the "feed" value of today's corn is much lower than it was years ago, not to mention all the so called "safe" weedkillers absorbed into today's corn. Years ago it was possible to fatten pigs on just corn. A neighbor(who used to feed just corn years ago) tried it recently, It just doesn't work anymore.

So if a pig can't get fat, surely people wouldn't either, right? Actually if you're eating "NULL" foods, you have to eat so much more to get the value you need, Not to mention the chemicals messing with you.


Somebody mentioned fat: Real fat *is* good for you. Of course I'm not talking about vegetable oils, etc. Properly raised animals will have healthy fat in the meat(great for grilling ). Lard has been used for many many years before obesity became a problem. How many of you have butchered pigs? You can easily tell the difference in pigs that where raised in conventional barn and pigs raised in the woods with proper feed.

I could go on and on but I'm sure you get the point.
good point, GMO came about from the chemical warfare companies...research origins of Monsanto etc... same company that made agent orange, actually they still make it---now its called RoundUp.
 
Old 05-25-2018, 03:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
It doesn't make sense to me that "it's all in the genes" in this case because not only is there no genetic advantage to obesity, ...there are numerous disadvantages not the least of which is early death.
Curiously there is one advantage to obesity which has recently come to light. If you are overweight or obese, and you get a bad infection like pneumonia or sepsis, you are less likely to die of it than a person of normal weight. However I doubt if this counteracts the increased chance of dying of cancer, stroke, heart attack or diabetic nephropathy.
 
Old 05-25-2018, 06:05 PM   #18
dugan
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I heard it was because your American cities are designed so that you have to drive everywhere?
 
Old 05-25-2018, 07:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
It doesn't make sense to me that "it's all in the genes" in this case because not only is there no genetic advantage to obesity (unless you're a walrus with nearly an unlimited supply of food and a heavy requirement for "insulation") there are numerous disadvantages not the least of which is early death...
There doesn't have to be an advantage to being overweight, just removal of a disadvantage until reproduction for a "bad gene" to multiply in the population. But it's extremely unlikely that today's widespread obesity problems are largely due to a changing gene pool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
... what has the best cost/benefit ratio and that is all about diet and exercise.

Considering the extreme wide variety of diets in various civilizations throughout history it appears that formula is weighted heavily in favor of the "exercise" side..
Based on my personal experience* I'd have to disagree and say it's more diet related. Admittedly my findings are based on a sample size of just one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
...Diet still matters of course but the key to health is in the balance. Food is fuel, at least good food is, and if you keep taking in more fuel than you burn, it gets stored as fat. Slowly metabolism changes and soon a tipping point is reached that gets ever harder to reverse...
Balance is best, as in almost everything. The trick is to stick to good food, which is nearly impossible unless you go to the effort of preparing it yourself and leaving junk food for an occassional treat.

I read somewhere (possibly on the interweb, in which case it MUST be true) that the tipping point is where the body's fat cells stop getting bigger and increase in numbers instead.


*Had to lose weight when I was diagnosed with type II diabetes, succeeded by changing what I ate (big change) rather than amount (small change). Didn't change activity levels much if at all, and consider mine as moderate**.

**More recently I've increased my activity by taking up weight training to try to avoid bone density problems - according to my GP the increased muscle mass has helped make me asymptomatic.
 
Old 05-25-2018, 07:23 PM   #20
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
I heard it was because your American cities are designed so that you have to drive everywhere?
Hahahah! While that may be a factor I think the American Dream with it's emphasis on upwardly mobile (accent on "mobile") appearances is largely at root cause. I distinctly recall my Father, who at that time was an insurance salesman, in what must've been around 1954 getting ribbed by my Mother because he had an appointment with a neighbor literally 2 doors down and he chose to drive the 40-50 feet or so to get there. So we can blame it all on that fascist Henry Ford.
 
Old 05-25-2018, 07:29 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
good point, GMO came about from the chemical warfare companies...research origins of Monsanto etc... same company that made agent orange, actually they still make it---now its called RoundUp.
Chemistry pedant here - agent orange is/was a mixture of 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T and roundup/zero is glyphosate. All courtesy of monsanto, a company apparently deeply committed to redefining evil.
 
Old 05-25-2018, 08:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
I heard it was because your American cities are designed so that you have to drive everywhere?
I heard Canucks are crazy. Every Canadian I met at Sturgis Motorcycle rally told me this. I believed them.
 
Old 05-26-2018, 12:02 AM   #23
ondoho
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about the video -
the most important argument was made inside the first minute: sedentary lifestyle.
cars and computers, basically.
diet (and overeating) is NOT the most important aspect, despite what the advertising food companies are trying to make you believe.
it is the second most important aspect though.

what more is there to say?

furthermore, i disagree with the immediate assumption that being thinner means being healthier (yes, the guy clearly made that assumption inside the first 2 minutes).

Last edited by ondoho; 05-26-2018 at 12:05 AM.
 
Old 05-26-2018, 12:19 AM   #24
cwizardone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
....
Also, noted in China and Japan, as the large city dwellers begin to adopt a more western diet, there is an increase in obesity and weight related health problems. Again, dispelling genetics as the cause....
In my years of traveling in Southeast Asia I've seen this, especially in Thailand where mcdonald's and KFC have started popping up nearly everywhere. Even 7/11, once an American firm, now owned by the Japanese, can be found on nearly every street corner.
 
Old 05-26-2018, 12:11 PM   #25
enorbet
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A good example of what affects body mass most is to take a gander at what competing cyclists eat for Tour de France. If anyone here who isn't involved in grueling exercise for most of 12 hours ate like this you could be the next Goodyear Blimp.... if you could figure out how to get up out of your chair let alone aloft.

--- Tour de France Dinner ---


....and no, there will be no significant gene pool change in just one or even a few generations. Evolution is mostly VERY long term.

Last edited by enorbet; 05-26-2018 at 12:13 PM.
 
Old 05-26-2018, 12:33 PM   #26
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
A good example of what affects body mass most is to take a gander at what competing cyclists eat for Tour de France. If anyone here who isn't involved in grueling exercise for most of 12 hours ate like this you could be the next Goodyear Blimp.... if you could figure out how to get up out of your chair let alone aloft.
This was probably what happened to Henry VIII. As a young man, he was extraordinarily active. He hunted every day, played a lot of tennis, and jousted (which required frequent practice in heavy armour). He ate like a horse and was lean as a whippet. Then he got a chronic leg ulcer from an infected wound and stopped almost all his physical activities, but continued to eat as much as before. He ballooned out and became grossly fat.
 
Old 05-26-2018, 02:35 PM   #27
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
about the video -
the most important argument was made inside the first minute: sedentary lifestyle.
cars and computers, basically.
diet (and overeating) is NOT the most important aspect, despite what the advertising food companies are trying to make you believe.
it is the second most important aspect though.

what more is there to say?

furthermore, i disagree with the immediate assumption that being thinner means being healthier (yes, the guy clearly made that assumption inside the first 2 minutes).
"Thinness" has everything to do with it. Our bodies are designed to only carry so much weight before the organs, glands, circulation etc... are impaired leading to disease. A good rule is to care less about how much you weigh and more about how you look naked. If a person looks in the mirror and they have mass protruding out beyond their natural frame of their body then they are overweight. If a person has areas that are "sunken" in then they are underweight. Being underweight is just as unhealthy as being overweight. Balance is the key. This method also takes into account different body types etc... since it is based on "your" frame.

Proper exercise and diet are equally important. Look at the traditional Chinese and Japanese diet, it is naturally low in calories and unnecessary filler, while being nutrient dense and quickly absorbed/processed and eliminated. some Mediterranean diets would fall under this category as well. Too much exercise can contribute to weight gain since it requires a huge intake of food and liquids.

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 05-26-2018 at 02:36 PM. Reason: need to remember to spell check ;)
 
Old 05-26-2018, 02:37 PM   #28
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
This was probably what happened to Henry VIII. As a young man, he was extraordinarily active. He hunted every day, played a lot of tennis, and jousted (which required frequent practice in heavy armour). He ate like a horse and was lean as a whippet. Then he got a chronic leg ulcer from an infected wound and stopped almost all his physical activities, but continued to eat as much as before. He ballooned out and became grossly fat.
Definitely.
 
Old 05-27-2018, 08:50 AM   #29
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Nice video, but there is shameless advertising at the end. On the defense side I must say that contrary to all other advertising videos, this one provides real information, and as far as I know from experience, it is mostly true.

For the genetic cause, I live in an area which provides an excellent study environment. In Curacao (former part of Netherlands Antilles) 40% of the male population is overweight and 23% is obese. For women this is 35% overweight and 33% obese. (33%!) (source: https://goo.gl/h2wJXw)

A few causes can be pointed out. Unhealthy food, hardly fruit or vegetables on the daily menu. At the same time so much welfare most people drive a car. You can see the effects of obesity everywhere and everyday. Most notable (I find) is that on the parking place of the supermarkets you see cars waiting in line to obtain a parking space which is within 20 meters of the entrance. People regularly park on the disable reserved spaces just to avoid walking. Which many hardly can. Most people have a sedentary lifestyle. Which is a self stimulating effect. If they have an office job, they can afford a car and lots of food. They get heavier, move even less, etc.

What is the link with the genetic cause?

The colored population if Curacao is descendant from Ghana in Africa. In the 17th and 18th century tribes were captured and sold as slaves. They were transported to America and the Caribbean.

I had the privilege to work in Ghana for an extended period of time. The percentage of obesitas is much and much lower that in Curacao. But also the standard of life is much lower. Read this as people have to work harder and they drive less cars. Strangely enough, fruits and vegetables are even harder to get and less on the menu then in Curacao. But so is the amount of processed, sugar containing food, and fast food. AFAIK there is only one McDonald alike restaurant and 2 KFC in entire great Accra. In Curacao there are at least 3 KFC and 4 McDonalds, some Burger King, Wendy's and a few Pizza Huts on a population of 160,000

I don't think a case study between Ghana and the Caribbean has been conducted, based on obesity and genetic correlation. This is just what I know and have observed.

As for other factors, like a sedentary lifestyle and exercising. When I look at myself, I was overweight due to too much drinking, chips and fast food. Despite of 3-4 hours cycling a week. Since 8 years I have banned all alcohol and sugared sodas, chips, and in fact everything between meals. During 5 days a week that is. Daily I eat 250 grams of vegetables and 500-700 grams of fruit. And I eat normally and everything during the meals, including fat, carbohydrates. I only try to avoid processed ingredients and sugar as much a possible.

In the weekends I eat a moderate amount of the bad things, like cakes, chips and I drink beer and wine.

I exercise 9-10 hours a week, which is on weekdays only. During the weekends I am not exercising and my 60-year old body needs that recuperation time. Since I started this lifestyle 8 years ago, I lost almost 25 kg of weight. My weight now fluctuates between 68-70 kg. I am 1.78 m tall.

I have come to the conclusion that the risk is in repeated behavior, not so much in a single occasion where you do something wrong or unhealthy. I know so many people who have a subscription to a fitness center for 3 times a week, and often they skip 1 or 2 times. But at the same time they always have an excuse to eat one or another snack during every day of the week. Which basically means eating everyday and exercising just once a week. That does not help.

In my point of view, it should be the other way around. Exercising should be a daily habit, and no excuses for snacking. With this lifestyle it does not matter that much if you have to skip one exercise per month, or if you cannot avoid that one piece of birthday cake in a month.

jlinkels
 
Old 05-27-2018, 10:12 AM   #30
rokytnji
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I just have to look at my toy chihuahua to figure out how one can become more obese.
She breaks it down pretty simple for me.
My cat breaks it down pretty simple for me also.

If it is available. Since humans are animals. We like pleasure just like animals. So Jabba The Hut. Here we come.
 
  


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