Do you still use Firefox? Word against Mozilla.
 

Hello Linux users. I just want to leave some data here and read your comments on that and if you still consider using Firefox.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMALm1VthGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPgyTzqDJhM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YpqU5wox6Y

What do you think about it and what's your consern?

P. S. I think even Google doesn't allow itself such insolence.

Firefox is my current browser, I think Mozilla is great and that they're doing the right things, and I don't consider any of the "concerns" raised in those videos to be a problem for me.

You don't have to agree, of course. And if you don't: I recently saw this alternative browser recommended by Brendan Eich. It looks interesting and you might want to try it out.

https://brave.com/

I already know about Brave. And Waterfox. But Brave is too raw and ugly. We'll see what devs are going to do. But the browser is not usable yet.

ADD: dugan, you didn't watch the videos. I thought about it just now. How can you already answer? And what "conserns" are you talking about?

My choice of browsers is not definite, but I appear to hate all of them. Having tried to use something different from Firefox was an unsatisfactory experience. The videos do talk true and you should be aware of it all. But I am sorry; I cannot get rid of Firefox completely, yet.

Being at the end of a slow line, I am using Torbrowser more and more often and do not even complain about speed.

People in France think that the dominating classes in Germany were less corrupt than the French. They cannot know that the Germans have “invented venal acting” and are better in keeping a low profile, beating the drums only for unsuspicious, dumb occasions.

Google is trans-humanism. What more do you need.

I use Firefox as my default browser, even though I am aware of the issues brought up in the videos. Which is why I choose to harden my FF to mitigate some of these issues.

Wait, Brendan Eich recommends his own browser? Imagine that! ;) My biggest problem with ALL Chrome-based browsers, but particularly Brave, is that the bookmark management absolutely sucks. Firefox-based browsers are great for bookmark management, at least for me.

These days, it seems like it's not a matter of which browser you like the most, but which browser you HATE THE LEAST.

Lunduke: takes about 6min to cut to the chase.

but what are the better alternatives? browser-wise?

isn't Mozilla also deeply involved with letsencrypt?

Oh where to start....

1) Lunduke is ever the exaggerator. If you watch his videos closely he loves to pander to his advertisers, not saying anything is wrong with that but it does reveal his character. Perhaps, he is receiving funds from Google, or another browser company, perhaps he went back to Microsoft (he did recently quit/or was fired by openSUSE, differing reports). Maybe he is mad at Mozilla for some (personal) reason...who knows. But follow the money.

2) Mozilla regardless of some of their decisions, is still (IMO) currently the best browser out there, if you care about opensource etc... If one does not care then of course other options exist, but are they any better? At least Mozilla is not hiding what they do with their money/contributions.

3) The third video, come on, look at the dude's videos, enough said. Surely would not pass the court system litmus test for reliability etc...

"Word against Mozilla"??
Care to translate that into English?
:banghead:

Oh, please.

Lunduke is a professional provocateur.

Mozilla, to the contrary, has a track record of demonstrated integrity and commitment to open source and open-ness.

Sure, Mozilla has made mistakes. So have I. Once, I think. It was back in the aughts . . . .

Furrfu.

I do not know the guy. But if he is (or if he must be considered by a large majority inside a vast group of people, selected for some reason or other) a ... (e.g. their belonging to the same nation or the whole effing human race, having the same language, etc)...

... a “professional provocateur” is not there to gain consent nor to provoke dissent. It would be a pity if we took them for that. Disruption is the base of all progress, as is disobedience the foundation of democracy. It hurts some, and ignites others. Pity.

If you don't get it. I am furious. We have public media, too.

And Waterfox has a /datareporting directory with a list and description of every extension I have installed, the install date, uptime, my clientID, CPU, GPU and what driver it's using, etc.

The most disturbing part to me, oddly enough, was the part that indicated the sending of pings:

I like to use Firefox, if only because I know that I'll be using version 1325 in the morning, and it'll be version 2180 by the end of the day. ;)

My browser of choice would be secure, small & lightweight, but this being the real world, I tend to use FF because it does what I need.

Firefox is still my favorite browser mainly because with the AdBlock Plus and Java NoScript plugins I see almost no ads and no javascript I haven't allowed ever runs including the google analytics and other tracking js that seem to exist on almost every site.

Having said that I recently began using Opera at home because it has built in VPN so my ISP doesn't get to track where I go despite the U.S. Congress having sold us out last year.

At work I haven't upgraded Firefox on my Windows 7 workstation beyond 49 mainly because I need to access java administrative stuff for both Java 7 and Java 8. Mozilla/Firefox developed a nasty habit a few releases ago of thinking they're smarter than you are so simply refuse to load things they deem insecure rather than telling you and letting you decide. With 49 I can still decide to add security exceptions for things I know we use internally that can't be upgraded. This means increasingly I have to use other browsers for external browsing.

P.S. The chance I'm going to click on video links at work is zero so I have no clue what was in the original youtube videos referenced.

It's not about Lunduke. It's about facts he (and the guy in third URL) provides us with. Is anything he is telling not true?

“opensource etc...”? Usually when people say “opensource etc...” they mean RMS ideology. Which is VERY MUCH against spying. So Firefox is if you don't really care about “opensource etc...”. The mere fact that it's “open source” doesn't make the program ethical. If MS releases source code for Windows 10, will Windows 10 become better just because it's opensource now?

The moment they release the source? No. Within a year of it being released? Definitely! Even as a closed source project Windows is made better by thousands of people outside of M$ poking at it and reporting findings back to M$.

So with all this information that is available out there we can definitely say that Firefox is now a spyware. And noone has a reason to disagree.

At this point, I'd say that all (web-) software has become spyware, and that this will continue until finally there is public outcry against it. (And I simply hope that the motivation for that outcry will not be "human tragedy," although I suspect that it will be.)

Clearly you haven't read all the responses. Go back to post #6. There are ways to deal with the "spyware" issues in FF.

The sad truth is, this type of behavior seems to be the shape of things these days. Which is why I also have and use up-and-coming browsers such as qutebrowser. If Mozilla keeps up the bad behavior, I'll just switch to something like qutebrowser, Seamonkey, surf, or...? Maybe I'll just realize the internet has jumped the shark and become a Luddite. :D

Has anybody here BUILT it? (and can tell me how?)
 

Because "browser fingerprinting", user agent tracing, screen size profiling -- WHY are these issues germain to a benign advertiser, who only wants me to "Try Crest Tooth-Paste" ??? Doesn't make sense to me either. Because of the intrusive information gathering -- ??

To use the same web browser daily, routinely, is VOLUNTARILY FEEDING "Feeding the Borg". Of course, it's now impossible to access internet without giving this Borg something ... My choice is to feed it as much empty white noise as possible. Anyone who really KNOWS security (be it in actual combat or in cybersapce) will tell you the "Big 3 Holes" are: laziness/complacency, habit/conformity, and FEAR...

So my browser choice is task dependent; for instance, Wikipedia, general searches, etc I use midori. Anything involving direct interaction (logging in) I use a gecko of some flavor. Most often firefox (or h20-fox) or palemoon. Having no choice but a static ISP I'm quite certain the Borg's got my digits flagged for the white noise, browser inconsistency, and avoidance of mainstream search engines :tisk:

Right now I'm running palemoon, there are things (like the Scrapbook extension) that don't run quite right in palemoon -- they still do in Firefox. At least ver. 45. ... For simple stuff, palemoon outperforms firefox. But if I'm off on a serious spelunkinging, I'll use (tightly secured and very extensioned) firefox 45 DE.

I tried 52, but it manifested these INFERNAL "Black Dots" covering my passwords -- that nothing I did, anywhere in about:config, no matter what I put in user.js, would remove. Nor was there any mention of this new "feature" in the documentation -- where it got turned on, or HOW TO TURN IT OFF. I don't use anything past 45 because after that, they broke it.

Out of curiosity, I've looked over version 57. Blyehh. Sure it's fast, but without the niceties of the many extensions -- some of which I've used over a decade -- no.

I've tried some extensions in 57 even -- just to be fair -- there's no such thing as being "mildly" curious. The "web extensions" work just fine, but without knowing what's going one, and where -- how can anyone TRUST THIS?

Most troubling to me, though there are literally THOUSANDS of extensions for everything from practical to "increase your bustline by clicking here" there is none for exporting or importing passwords / sensitive data. Were I flippant enough to just allow an update, (I always "chmod -x" or otherwise neutralize any possible background players) I'm quite certain this "new friend" would greedily slurp up anything I had in the user profile at the time -- but then how would I get it OUT???

Whoever's in charge of "Moz-da" now would say "use online sync for that"

Sorry Charly. No Tuna Today.

The whole point to USING the extensions is to more nimbly control what's coming OUT of my console (preferably little more than my requests to view whatever I'm perusing) never mind squelch the boatload of garbage coming in.

I absolutely do NOT mind waiting a few seconds more in order to see a screen without any advertising.

So where are these "web extensions" executing their code? Where do the other parts of these things live? HOW MUCH OF MY DATA ARE THEY PRIVY TO? There's nothing wrong with 57, it's not as awful as chrome -- but why go up another learning curve when what I'm running works just fine?

I'm quite certain my ideas are a little peculiar, even amongst linux folk. Oh well. Comes with old age :cool:

So enough of the rants and rages ... What I'd like to learn is how to build firefox myself -- call it "BullWinkle" (or "Tuesday")...

Tried building it from the "mozdev" directions back then, THOUGHT I had everything the cookbook called for, but every morning I'd get up to find a screen full of complaints that the duck wouldn't go for :confused: Probably missed a "." or some significant small detail ...

There's a couple of repo's on Github I still look at for clues (I think Alex is one of them) but it's like drinking from a fire hydrant.

I don't want to build for market, or change the world. Mostly because it disturbs me being dependent on someone else to repair my motorcycle or automobile...

If anyone can point me toward someone with experience (and patience, yes I have autism) I'd be humbly grateful

Thank you Sincerely

S.

I watched the videos and I have to say that I found Lunduke to have the same typical sales tactics as those for dubious products like "Cure Diabetes Today With These All Natural Secret Vegetables That The AMA Doesn't Want You to Know About". All of them repeat their initial conclusion endlessly and avoid specific evidence for a very long time. That makes me suspicious right away. Then I notice that YouTube automatically showing relevant videos on the right shows a high percentage of Conspiracy Idiocy. I can't decide exactly if that is a scary incidence of controlled content or a hint as to the reputation of Lunduke, but I'm leaning toward the latter.

One thing very seriously makes me doubt the exact accuracy of Lunduke's claims and that is If I search for "EFF and Mozilla Firefox" (and I do trust EFF rather strongly) I get no such claims. The only claim that seems to add up is browser site visitation tracking and frankly I think that is a moot point at the very least and possibly a net good thing. If The Information Society is real and valuable then I want corporations and governments to know what people really think and are interested in, not some dubious guesswork. Polls have been around forever and the very fact that certain kinds of people are attracted to participating in polls and who often do not state what they really mean but rather the extremes of what the think will make them look good.

So I still use Firefox the most and only moderately harden it. I'm more concerned with how difficult it is to compile Firefox from source compared to say PaleMoon than any concern with content control. What I mean by that is I am extremely concerned about content control but I don't see any evidence of that at least yet other than showing me what "they" think I might like and that is moderately acceptable.

FWIW I am quite aware that the manipulative argument employed by police of "You don't need a lawyer if you're innocent" is laughably transparent and devious but I don't see such tactics employed by Firefox again at least yet but I remain vigilant. In that vein the last guy? Bwahahahah!

That is rather wild approach. :-) Waaaay to much work to fight the browser to just be able to surf the Web. Using Waterfox is much more simple.

It's a new business model of today. Developers switched from writing and selling code to creating code that collects information about people and selling that information for revenue. More and more corporations adopt this model. Making programs and selling those programs to users is now yesterday. I smell the day I stop using computers all together. It comes closer year by year. GNU/Linux is not a 100% solution against surveillance. It also degenerates slowly. And with hardware spying mechanisms like Intel IME & AMD PSP computers stink even worse.

Actually the source of information matters very much. It adds to the credibility or lack thereof regarding the content of their message/statement. Lunduke lacks credibility, ergo his claims fall flat for me. Also, there are many peole that use RiseUp, just because one particular group uses it does not mean the entire service is bad. Hey, bad guys use interstate highways, fly planes, drive cars etc... should we ban and stop using those things because of a few bad eggs?

Your second comment is just plain wrong...RMS represents Free Software not opensource, get your facts straight. OpenSource and Free Software have similarities but they also diverge in some areas. And yes as another said, if Windows released their source code, or if Apple did the same, it would make both after some time more trustworthy. It is their closed nature that rules out trust. Similar to a spouse keeping secrets, how can you trust that?

So what is your solution, pray tell?

I think I wasted time watching three videos worth of gish gallop.

If you think trust, security, and privacy are booleans, then you're probably a really different person from me, and you probably won't like using Firefox.

i watched the first video, the second for long enough to see it contains info already touched on in the first, and bits of the last just for lulz (it got boring pretty quickly though).

so, about the first video (lunduke ranting and raving about mozilla): i don't think he's generally wrong, but i don't see how all this differs from any other large FOSS internet project, that's why i was asking "so what's the alternative".

in retrospect, i was also missing the one big fact that would clearly tell us firefox is not trustworthy as a software.
the thing with the mr robot extension sounded bad, but looking closer it was just some sort of really stupid decision, undone quickly.
and, more importantly, it seems to have affected only some voluntary beta testers?

Sometimes I wonder if opinion threads or posts are bot entries on this forum?

I Use Firefox or Seamonkey if my equipment can handle it.
Palemoon nonsse2, Qupzilla, no flash, on my P3 IBM T23 laptop.

Beggars like me can't be choosy. Dealing with real world limitations.

Edit: Most folks find me disturbing.

Could you explain this? Why after 1200+ posts? And why after not being active on LQ since 2016, do you come back to tell us something we already know?
As far as I know no matter how "secure" your browser is.....If the OS underneath is spying....

No offence, Just curious.

Yes, I was wondering about this myself. Those in glass houses, blah, blah, blah...

I don't really care about what Mozilla does as a corp. My biggest concern about Firefox is that it spies. It's absolutely unacceptable!

I disagree. And I don't understand why you guys think this way. Maybe it's some specific Linux community thing... I don't care about code openness, I care about quality of code and what the code does. Thus if some piece of software is high quality, convenient to use and follows some right idiology/tradition, than it's good to me. But if it's crap and does unethical things, I don't care for its openness. If developer of WannaCry malware opens source code of WannaCry without modifying the virus, will you trust WannaCry malware and its developer more (even after some time)? Nonsense.

I think it's very easy now to convert GNU/Linux into spying operating system. All you need to do is to implement spying functionality in systemd and make it so noone can opt out. And there you go! Systemd is now pretty much in every distro and amount of distros adopting this technology grows. There definitelly will be distos without systemd but those will probably be marginal and not very good in general. Not a lot of people will use them. Like, 95% of desktop Linux users will use systemd-based distros and will be spied. So there you go, there's your free GNU/Linux (as in freedom, not free beer). :rolleyes:

There's no 100% solution to fix all this. The problem is in people and you can't fix them. It's both developrs and users. Developers do unethical stuff, users except everything they are fed. And this way nothing can be changed to something good.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke

The solution I have (at least for me) is:

1. Use browsers like Waterfox, Brave, SeaMonkey, Midori... Those don't seem to spy on you yet. I may be wrong about some of them.
2. Use search engines that don't spy, like duck, ixquick, startpage, swisscows...
3. Use mail services that don't spy, like startmail, protonmail, hushmail, lavabit...
4. Use "HTTPS Everywhere" addon to minimize what your ISP knows about you. Don't use VPN/TOR all the time: 1) you never know if they are trustworthy, 2) it puts you in a spotlight for ISP and organizations like NSA and whoever has access to your Internet traffic. People working in ISPs tell this.
5. Use uBlock Origin. It has lots of privacy subscriptions out of the box. The addon is really rich for blocking all sorts of unneeded webpage snippets. Don't waste your time using things like Ghostery. They are mostly based on Adblock and do nothing new than Adblock/uBlock already does.
6. Don't use smartphones and all other smart * (home appliances). "Smart *" == "spying *". Use regular dumbphone with buttons instead. Learn to survive with dumb home appliances.
7. Don't use social networks for personal stuff. Learn to communicate with people in reality.
8. Quit using online services like reddit, twitter, instagram, etc... for posting stuff. If you need them visit those unlogged in and clear cookies afterwards. Don't maintain personal accounts on there. Don't allow cookies to be saved in browser. Set your browser to delete them on exit.
9. Watch out what operating system you use. Don't use Windows 10. I don't know anything about Apple OSes, so can't specify. If you use Windows 7/8, watch out what updates you install on there as there are spying ones. Using Linux/BSD still seems to be fine. But not Ubuntu.

That's just what I do to minimize spreading data about me. But as I said, it becomes harder and harder by every year and someday I'll just say "enough is enough".

Yes. Couple of years ago some major changes happened in my life which made me to stop being a geek. That means quit tinkering with Linux and fighting it as it rarely just works. I installed Windows 7 for my PC to just work and do the job. Plus I quickly noticed that Windows is much more stable and allows more convenient software management.

Also to mention here, GNU/Linux degraded to a complete garbage. It looks ugly, it works barely, it has thrown out it's UNIX-like ideology and beauty of architecture (or it rather never had it).

So Linux is garbage and I am not inetersted in computers any more. Thus "Distribution: No more Linux. Done with it".

I am bored at work. Not much to do these days.

Windows 7 doesn't yet spy if you don't install certain updates of last years.

Oh come on... I don't get offended over nothing. I'm not a liberal.

I am beginning to conclude that Mr. Alex is merely a troll. He pretends to know something about Linux when he clearly doesn't (which may be why any of his trials failed) yet he chooses to come to LinuxQuestions.org to bitch and moan on not one but at least two threads.

Mr. Alex if Windows suits you better so what? Nobody cares. I certainly am not offended nor worried and you can take it to the bank that I don't habituate WindowsQuestions.org (generic term but hopefully you get it) just to rant about how much Windows bloze goats. So what do you expect to receive as a dividend to your "investment" here, Mr Conservative? (If I am jumping to conclusions that you think yourself a Capitalist, my apologies)

No. Mr. Alex is currently bored at work, as I said. And discussion is what you do on forums like this. So I don't know why trolling is what you see in my thread.

Was never pretending that. I was just using it and participated on this forum.

Far-right, to be exact.

Just having a good time reading what others have to say. Nothing more.

Forgot to add. I didn't fail. My life changed and those changes have nothing to do with computers. The fact that I switched back to Windows is conditioned by my new lifestyle where computers almost have no place.

From the beginning, I consider the original question a Lifestyle-question. I should not expect more from a thread under “General” but fall into the same trap sometimes.

Exactly.

One more thought...
 

I'm just curious which of my messages on here made you conclude that? You wrote: "He pretends to know something about Linux" when I haven't ever pretended that. Again, why do you think I pretended? And even if I did, that wouldn't make me a troll.

Why exactly did you call me a troll?

Don't worry, I'm not "offended". I am curious because it seems to me you have probably been "triggered". If so it makes you a liberal. Are you one?

This is a pretty decent list. I'm still using FF, although a hardened version, as I have said before. But I may still switch to Waterfox or Seamonkey. I always keep Seamonkey on my Slackware boxes, as I do like it quite a bit. The only other point that I haven't dealt with on your list is the smartphone. I do have an Android phone, although I don't really want it. The wife has been fairly insistent that I keep it, haha, but I may downgrade to a clamshell-style dumb phone, if I can still find one through my provider (Cricket).

Of course you'd trust them more, since your system would be patched to totally eliminate it. Because by seeing how it works you can also secure AGAINST it.

I hope you know this means war on a Linux forum....
That doesn't remotely sound like anything I run....want are you running? dsl, tiny core? ;)

Those "certain" updates are also sometimes security updates.....just saying.


I don't care what OS or browser you use... We use what works best for us.

I'll tell you how I keep my data private on my Windows 7 box(that I rarely boot). It's has never been and probably never will be, connected to the net. ;)

Lunduke IS A FAR RIGHT GOVERNMENT SHILL talking out his ass
If I could block his videos on youtube I would

So a few things Mr. Alex, after reading your recent posts they are to say the least, confusing or misleading...In one post you claim to use Windows, in another you claim to use GNU/Linux and to promote it, in another post you say GNU/Linux is complete garbage...Which one is it? It reminds me of a story about a man who claims to hate coffee, goes on a long diatribe of how coffee is destroying the environment, adding to slavery and indentured servitude, causing forests to be cut down etc... and then orders a refill of his coffee and pays with his Starbucks Gold card.

You are correct that just being opensource/FOSS, does not ensure immunity of programs, it does, however, lessen the chance and also increases the likelihood of those problems being discovered and corrected or if need be forked by another group. Look at openSSL versus LibreSSL, etc...

I can tell you that closed source/proprietary software almost ensures the likelihood of what you described. Microsoft called their OS Windows for a reason, they could have also used OpenDoor OS.

LOL...Keep in mind Far Right and Far Left are the same....just different wings of the same bird, flying in the same direction.

Bingo! Classic Troll! Bored at work posting some bullshit provocative thread designed to trigger others into an argument so that some excitement ensues along with a Schadenfreude joy and ersatz validation that the troll is basically superior by virtue of acting The Puppeteer, pulling others' strings. Sorry fella, I'm not tethered nor triggered. I just don't hide from a fight for accuracy and responsibility.

FYI it is ignorant oversimplification to see the world of humans as a binary Left vs/ Right division. People just aren't that simple, though many may try to be. I was an usher at Ayn Rand lectures and subscribed to The Freeman during the 60s and early 70s. I trust that the government which governs least, governs best. I am confidant that Laissez Faire Capitalism is indeed the economic expression of Democracy where dollars are votes. However I am also aware that the fundamental forces implied in "The Rich get Richer, while the Poor get Poorer" is real and tends to create a condition where the Haves will get Laissez Faire subverted to enact laws that benefit them at everyone else's expense, thus requiring some level of "reset" since we never begin with a level playing field. I am Pro Choice and Anti Death Penalty, the latter not so much because it is cruel to the convicted, but because it is cruel (and costly) to Civilization and especially those that must carry out executions but perhaps most importantly because so many convicted Death Row inmates have been proven innocent by such things as DNA. Police and government officials are quick to zero in and convict by any and all means and even by unlawful methods they hope to keep hidden since Death Penalty cases provide good PR and photo ops.

So, hopefully you can see that I don't fit some simplistic definition of Right or Left. In some areas I suppose you would consider me Liberal and in others further to the Right than a bicycle on the Autobahn, but I don't care for pigeonholes. They are convenient to closed minds to avoid critical thought at any expense so that what they view as the opposite can be written off with no thought process required. It is by nature, intellectually lazy and blind.... IMHO of course ;)

Where did I say I use Linux currently?

Depends on people. You sure can say anything about yourself and be something totally different. If I say I am far-right it doesn't mean I lie/pretend and am something else in reality even though people in politics do this.

It's not about lying, Mr. Alex, when referring to oneself and our political affiliation. It is common that if one identifies very strongly with any one label, they lack understanding of that which the label is purported to describe and often, of themselves as well since labels of extremes tend to be rather 2 dimensional, and humans in general are not that simple. For example in the case of the current Republican party in the US, many people, especially those in the lower economic classes, are "One Issue Republicans". They may have no interest in the main thrust of the party but ignore that disconnect as long as party rhetoric identifies with Their Big Issue.

Many people who use terms like "Conservative" and "Liberal" have extremely little understanding of what those concepts actually mean and use them only or mostly to describe Others, so they can disregard anything they say or do. Additionally political parties evolve and change or at the very least try to appear to in order to be a "catch all".

What you refer to when writing about "You sure can say anything about yourself and be something totally different" is exactly what ChangTzu and others here, including me, surmise about you, that you profess to have been a Linux User "once upon a time" yet now profess the glories of Windows (old windows at that) and call Linux "garbage". The simple fact is that nobody with any appreciable level of expertise in Linux would ever say that... either one! regarding Windows or Linux. The Cathedral and The Bazaar are extremely different, near polar opposites, by design and philosophy. It is as unlikely as Trump becoming a Democrat as you actually being a former Linux user now affiliated with Windows by choice.

The Cathedral and the Bazaar is a little misplaced here. That work only discussed open source development models and while proprietary software development could be said to be based on the Cathedral model, except that with proprietary software, source is not publicly released, "Linux vs Windows" is not simply a matter of Cathedral / Bazaar.

A lot of FOSS software uses the Cathdedral model and as I understand it, ESR wrote the piece around the time when many developers were getting frustrated with how GCC was developed (Cathedral style).

I used to be a Linux User "once upon a time" indeed but then I disappointed greatly in this system. And I disagree with you that "nobody with any appreciable level of expertise in Linux would ever say that" because that would mean all people accept what they are being fed with no questions or disagreements. Which is to say that all people are 100% driven slaves. Sad truth is most of people are but not all of them. Sometimes you like some product and it gets worse over time and you stop liking it. It's pretty simple. Don't know why anyone would have problems in understanding this simple concept. Linux is indeed garbage these days and it used to be way better in like 2006. But to like Linux just because it's LINUX no matter what (regardless of ANY degradation) is wrong. Or maybe you guys like GNU/Linux only because it's GPL. If so I wonder if you'll like Windows 10 in case it's released under GPL some day.

Here's a hypothetical question. If Windows and all its programs becomes GPL and Linux with all its programs becomes proprietary shareware would you like Windows better and switch to it?

Actually I think ESR is a crazy man but he hit on something special and to me, it means more than simply Open vs Proprietary. Windows is all Centralized power. EVERYTHING depends on The Registry and \Windows\system\* . Certainly that is well-hidden when proprietary is everywhere, but still it reminds me of The Roman Catholic Church, complete with Popes and Bishops... and most importantly esoteric dogma. This is also reflected in how it grew from a Single User environment.

Linux OTOH is compartmentalized corroboration. This is one reason why Windows requires reboots so often where Linux can handle Multiple Users opening the same file and simpl;y stop, start, and restart processes on demand.

Sorry but I disagree with ESR's intent and find Cathedral and Bazaar has a much wider significance.

Where are you getting the idea that Linux requires slavery? That's entirely a MS Windows thing where Users are generally powerless, moron cash cows. Linux is the most diverse and Free as in Speech, highly personally, adaptively configurable of any OpSys I know. Nobody had or has to tell me anything about it since I can easily see for myself.

Perfect example is your statement that you liked Arch until it went systemd. Well Arch isn't all Linux and there are several distros that either by default don't have systemd or can be configured w/o it AND the vast majority of commands and apps are all there behaving in exactly the same manner as they always did. Linux isn't a distro. It's a kernel upon which distros are easily built. You can build you own entirely from scratch.

It seems to me that anyone even attracted to an open system that lets you make huge, disastrous mistakes but learn from them instead of assuming you're an idiot who must be protected from himself, is so obviously different (and empowering) that it is impossible to ever consider that as mere "garbage". This is why I sincerely doubt that you have ever been "appreciably expert" in Linux. Perhaps you were one of those essentially seeking Free Windows, which Linux is not and I hope never gets to be.

So not only "No!" but "Hell No!" there is nothing MS could do to bring me back because any changes I would want to see, they are incapable of delivering without becoming "not Windows". I like vegetables and meat but I generally despise veggies trying to be fake meat.

Actually that you would even ask such a question is the best evidence that you were never a serious Linux devotee. Garbage indeed! L-O freakin' L.