LinuxQuestions.org - Because Shiny Things Are Fun - The New New Windows v Linux Thread

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Yup, the Linux train is finally being derailed thanks to the continuous efforts of Red Hat. Sadly, UNIX is struggling now that both Oracle and IBM have declared that they're not too interested in their former glory products Solaris/AIX anymore. I hope that we will see a better future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesItsMe (Post 5946913)

It's the typical trend away from quality and towards cheap, short term solutions - e.g. Intel abandoning Itanium and moving to x86, which is probably going to lead to the death of HP-UX as well, considering HP has said it will not be ported to x86 and was gushing about both Windows and Linux for "mission critical" stuff.

Apart from macOS, UNIX is very much dead, certainly anything sysv is dead or dying. *BSD is all that's left and those are tiny hobby projects with small numbers of developers, compared to Linux and corporate behemoths backing it.

The good old days are gone for good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynwulf (Post 5946901)

snip

Nice post, cynwulf. I know you weren't a fan of 'that poster' and you know I was, but I will quote a few lines of his which I think are relevant to your argument and which I think you'll appreciate.

Quote:

There's a reason why sysadmins in large organizations are routinely among systemd's biggest detractors.

Downtime is expensive in terms of both time and money. So is re-training. So is rewriting gigabytes of artificially-obsoleted documentation. Add them all up, factor in the associated opportunity costs, multiply by a planet's worth of installs, and before you know it, the cost to the global economy associated with systemd deployment reaches into the billions (or thousands of millions, if you prefer) of dollars/euros.

And for what exactly?

Even if systemd were a demonstrably superior technology (which it isn't), adequately spec'ed (which it isn't) elegantly designed (which it isn't), well-coded (which it isn't), properly documented (which it isn't),or developed by a responsive and responsible community with a history of delivering robust and reliable software (*cough*pulseaudio*cough*), systemd would still be at best problematic, for one simple reason: it's insanely expensive to implement, particularly given the fact that it doesn't solve any actual problem.

Insofar as I'm aware, no one has ever articulated a value proposition for systemd that addresses its implementation costs, or comes remotely close to calculating a payback period. More to the point, no one has successfully articulated any value proposition for systemd that goes beyond “it's better” or “it's more modern.”

Global warming, antibiotic resistant bacteria, oilspills, and nuclear accidents are all “modern,” but that doesn't make them good. And “better” is a meaningless term until and unless one specifies a metric or quantitative criteria that can be used to measure “better” in a systematic and reliable way. Otherwise, “new and improved!” is just marketing hype.

At the end of the day, the crux of the systemd question comes down to a matter of how much Unix one wants in one's Linux. Casual users and hobbyists probably won't care. Professionals will care deeply and passionately.

From this post.

Also:

Quote:

One of the many things systemd does is present Bad Guys with a much larger attack surface to exploit. Even more worrisome, systemd actually has privilege escalation code built into it. Factor in Poettering's cavalier attitude about security, and it's probably just a matter of time before something Really Bad happens.

I hope I'm wrong. But I wouldn't bet on it.

[personal comms]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynwulf (Post 5946901)

If I were still running Linux I'd probably run something like Slackware rather than getting on board the runaway train of development, which is blazing the same trail which MS windows did in the 90s.

Yes. It's the best option, as far as I'm concerned. In many ways it's the only option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysander666 (Post 5946959)

Nice post, cynwulf. I know you weren't a fan of 'that poster' and you know I was, but I will quote a few lines of his which I think are relevant to your argument and which I think you'll appreciate.

You also may appreciate the comments from someone who actually has a clue what he's talking about and worked in the industry ( ;) ):

https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/l...1/#post-353891
(I wondered where I had got my "trail blazed in the 90s" thing from ( :) ), it sprung to mind and I knew it seemed familiar - I will edit accordingly - credit where it's due, etc - it's absolutely bang on though)
https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/l...1/#post-353824

https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/h...7/#post-261059

https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/g...7/#post-396202

And ESR recently posted at the Devuan forums, he also wants to avoid systemd, but doesn't seem that keen on Devuan either. The forum is probably a bit too ideological and fanboy driven.

http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2537

Well, ain't this an interesting thread. I thought the discussion would be more on the "Windows vs Linux" side rather than just focusing on an aspect of Linux that can be easily switched out. Never expected for arguments such as "Linux will become the complex beast Microsoft Windows is of the 90's because systemd is the one who will do that!" or things like that. I do not want to partake into this thread as I personally don't have any hard feelings toward systemd (I haven't experienced the "Unix way" or the server environment, all I use are desktops, stuff for me to play with or work with depending on the situation) but I'll point out something about Slackware real quick.

In a Wikipedia article "As of August 2018 (January 2019 now), Slackware does not support or use systemd, but Volkerding has not ruled out the possibility of switching to it", these being the answer in question: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...1/#post5054861

So I just want to state that systemd isn't out of the realm for the Slackware distribution, just saying for those who switched or hoped that Slackware will indefinitely or forever keep its original init system intact.

Cheers, DragoonJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragoonJ (Post 5947068)

In a Wikipedia article "As of August 2018 (January 2019 now), Slackware does not support or use systemd, but Volkerding has not ruled out the possibility of switching to it", these being the answer in question: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...1/#post5054861

So I just want to state that systemd isn't out of the realm for the Slackware distribution, just saying for those who switched or hoped that Slackware will indefinitely or forever keep its original init system intact.

Cheers, DragoonJ

It's Wikipedia. Whoever wrote that article failed to notice [or chose not to notice] Patrick's sarcasm in his post. PV and Eric are both very anti-systemd: it will be avoided for as long as humanly possible [e.g. eudev].

Also, let's not turn this into another Slackware systemd debate. There is literally nothing we can say now which hasn't already been covered.

cynwulf: I've look at your links properly shortly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysander666 (Post 5947075)

It's Wikipedia. Whoever wrote that article failed to notice Patrick's sarcasm in his post. PV and Eric are both very anti-systemd. It will be avoided for as long as humanly possible [e.g. eudev].

Also, let's not turn this into another Slackware systemd debate. There is literally nothing we can say now which hasn't already been covered.

I don't know what are his true thoughts regarding that topic. If that was sarcasm and he truly believes that having systemd out is the best choice for Slackware users, then, the more power to him. I do have Slackware and I enjoy this distro very much so, though is still a path of learning.

Yeah as I said, I'll keep myself out of this systemd debacle, however, I do support choice and availability for those who do want to use it and for those who don't. Is up to them what they would like to run with.

Slackware is funded by donations and sales via the Slackware store - I seriously doubt that PV would do anything to upset his "customer base" by adopting systemd...

But it's all speculation - the post really says nothing about his intentions either with regards to sticking with the current sysvinit or with adopting anything else. You only see OpenRC appearing to be ruled out, but that was over 5 years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynwulf (Post 5947086)

Slackware is funded by donations and sales via the Slackware store

You didn't miss the massive upset re the store a few months ago, did you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynwulf (Post 5947086)

You only see OpenRC appearing to be ruled out, but that was over 5 years ago.

Yes, I think he expressed an interest in it again in 2017 but I can't remember now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynwulf (Post 5946901)

[url]...like it or not...

here's my opinion: Systemd is free and open, oh wait that's not an opinion,,, my bad!

See, "free" and "open" usually means that the quality sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YesItsMe (Post 5947299)

See, "free" and "open" usually means that the quality sucks.

No. The irony, we do!

Just think about it the world could be a perfect utopia if not for the religion of opinions. But how would we get to the facts without opinions... those now already exist. Like Evolution but with an RRrrr! F the system we have our own‽ ;)

It's not an opinion that we need to try systemd, it's not an opinion that we need to try without or split both off in seemingly infinite possibilities...

Opinions are inbred.

Nobody has to try systemd.
I don't have to touch a glowing iron to know that it might be inconveniently hot.