slackware and systemd (OT)
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Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't understand do it again twenty years from now and so on. One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor. |
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Let's see if some years from now you understand my logic. ;-) Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't understand do it again twenty years from now and so on. One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor. There is no need to patronise. Just granting yourself a sense of supreme knowledge and entitlement does not all of a sudden make your argument logical. |
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drugs are bad. |
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When kikinovak told me about GPS, motorcycles and milk I could answer him "What relation have motorcycles and milk with systemd?" But, without consuming drugs and not having any supreme knowledge, I am able to understand an analogy. Besides rational, you need abstraction and association capabilities. And what is more important, maturity. All that will not grant you a supreme knowledge but at least you will not chatter away like Mercury305 does (hey, he is a clever guy and he is not bad intentioned; just a bit annoying and naive). There are two points I agree with Stallman. 1) He consider the social-human aspect of the issue more relevant than the technical one. 2) He assumes you will be disposed to renounce to some privileges to stay coherent with your cause. Saying it simple: I find that who really miss the point are those that blame GPL just because they are not able to run some software on linux. More specially when the software is a stupid toy. I used the hyperbole "people suffering starvation" (in part to follow the kikinovak "food" analogy) like an example of the most important human resource in the aim of extending the "priorities" to the whole human-social context (what you expect of somebody talking about ethical behind of individuals rights). Your lecture should be "You are complaining about something that is not relevant to (and coherent with) the context of the ideas of who (Stallman) you criticize". Taking in care you felt entitled to discredit my logic even without having read what I wrote (and without explaining why you think that, what could be considered a plain insult) I will not advice you to save it to a CD; the second time you will do the same. That's what humble people like you use to do: "If I don't understand (at a first sight) is because it has no logic". But you don't offend me at all; I guess the average audience here is too much younger than me; that's why some of you doesn't understand my approach. Besides patronizing, what option I had in front of some kind of comments? For example, you said : "the idea that users have any real power is such an idealistic and unrealistic view of the world". Whithout the aim of insulting, your point of view can be anything but mature. When I talked about users I meant "the masses" not the individual. You, me and even Volkering or Linus have no power at all in front of "supply and demand". If most people likes red apples (yes, about food again) and only you like green ones take for sure the green apples will almost disappear from stores. That's real world. For example, you will see RedHat doing the same that Microsoft in some ways, because both companies are evil? No, to survive in the market they are subordinated to "supply and demand". Why Microsoft would think about selling green apples? The farther your projects are from what "most people do" the harder will be for you to acomplish them, and like a side effect, the more the privileges you will be forced to renounce to keep coherent with your cause. Again read carefully what I've written and (while you don't feel yourself "the owner of True") if you don't understand, at least give me the benefit of the doubt. Now, about systemd (I will over explain for those with low association capabilities). Do you think that those that complain about systemd are because some tech feature? Is it about if systemd is a good or bad piece of software or if it get the job done? Absolutely not. Some users have other concerns at time to administer a Linux system than installing software with Debian Synaptic. For example, you can learn to manage a server with Mandriva Control Center, but what will you do in front of a RedHat, Debian or Slackware machine, installing Mandrake Wizards? :-) In a web server; do you think you need cPanel? Do you think you need phpMyAdmin? Anyway you will be forced to use them just because it is "what most people want". I tried hardly to use Slackware like web server on a VPS (I explained about it in other post in this forum). After a year of having pointless discussions with more than twenty companies around the world I had to end using CentOS (in a reseller). Supply and demand. Now each time I want to make a modification, like updating my custom CA (certificate authority) I must to explain the supposed "Linux Techs" how to edit apache config files because they just know how to do it using cPanel. Those people have no concerns about systemd because they ignore (and have no interest on) how to edit a config file or a shell script. Other example, I had ftp access to an important university site (because a client of mine has a web page there). Just after taking a look (a Solaris OS) I see two backups of the shadow file with world readable permissions. I downloaded it to my machine and after seconds john the ripper cracked more than 30 passwords (most of them "cocacola"). With some of them I get ssh access. That's the kind of *supposed* Unix admins that think that administering Unix from guied wizards is the modern approach. Finally, I am a very, very rare person, in the sense I will accept a good argument even if it goes against my personal (immediate) interests. On the contrary, most people will ignore, attack or even kill you (this is not an hyperbole) just to defend a stupid vicious habit. The today's widespread drugs dependency behavior. Hey, I will no paraphrase again. Be equally exigent with your thinking than you are with the others. |
There's never a ravenous flesh-eating Morlock around when you need one is there?
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@eloi A bit of constructive criticism: could you use the same formatting as the rest of us? I keep trying to read your posts as if they were poetry, blank verse. TIA |
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Haha :) |
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I'd like to see you doing that in front of me. |
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First of all Slackware is not about serving the Users. Slackware is about being Slackware. If it served the masses then it would be just like any distro. There are things that I don't like in Slackware but there are things that I don't like in lets say Ubuntu. Now when you compare the stuff I don't like in Ubuntu and Slackware. I prefer Slackware even though Ubuntu caters to the masses. Slackware serves a specific geeky type of users. Users that don't enjoy GUI automation, and like to dig the underlying cause of how things really work. Just by going with the Masses does not make your distro a good distro. Even if it sells does that make it better? No. My honest opinion? The masses are stupid. The masses watch Football games all day. Believe in most things they see on TV or now adays its Youtube. Which is why there are so many Ron Paul supporters now a days thinking he will save USA. Not realizing that he is a wolf in sheeps clothing. So I myself do not fall into the category of Masses in anything. For example 1 I hate watching sports. 2 I hate "group thinking" and backwards traditions. I am a pragmatist. I don't go for whatever is most popular is the best. I go for what works... Hence, I am not attracted by the OS that the masses use. I only like what I like. I like a lot about Slackware which is why I use it. But I also agree with the rest of the people in here that Patrick should continue making the final decisions. Why? Because I like his style. Even if I don't agree with everything with him. I still like the end product more then Ubuntu. Even if its a pain to download and install software on Slackware over Ubuntu. I still prefer the System so much more because I feel I can control it easier... yes, even with my limited knowledge on Linux. Slackware is great the way Patrick makes it. All I can do is give him recommendations and he can choose what he wants to add into it or not. I like that. Slackware is IMMUNE to that whole Supply and Demand theory you have spit out. Why? Because Slackware is not about the Money. If it was Patrick would be working at Red Hat right now most likely. But Patrick is doing what he wants to do in his distro and that my friend is Priceless. Slackware is thus a REAL DISTRO. Unlike the User Catered Distros out there. Its like a work of art. Slackware doesn't give a damn what "Users" want. It does what it finds is Right and what works best with Slackware Philosophy. |
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write the post you qualified like "excellent and clever". Let's people here to enjoy your correct english and Slackware users to enjoy its immunity. Excuse me, I have Morlocks and starved childs to feed. |
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to use here. This kind of useful comments are all well received. |
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As Alien Bob so succinctly put it earlier: *plonk* |
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with people like Eric. Take what you honestly think to other place. I am he. From now you can call me Morlock. :-) |
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book or any of the lot of manuals about Linux basics. You will thanks me this sugestion and you will understand my "cryptic" posts. I am not trolling, I have better things to do with my life. I really like your web site. That's why I used in one of my posts the new Google interface like an example. Your site is not bloated of java script that today are widely used like a "modern" interface. "Modern" is more about fashion than innovation. |
All, stop the trolling and insulting. This thread, despite its topic, could be kept civilized for about 230 posts, so now don't change that.
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@ eloi
By "formatting", I meant the length of the lines of text in your posts, nothing to do with the content. |
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See I use pentadactyl. So I press C+I in the textarea and get opened rxvt with vi. I use vi for all. Some time ago I understood why hard wrap of lines was not a Stone Age practice. For example, I edit shell, php, latex, and mails, all with vi. But if you use soft wrapped lines, like by default use Kate, Quanta, Kile or Kmail you will see a slow down in scrolling a very large file. It is less hard to the buffer (memory) of your editor to read short lines. One more reason to learn and appreciate the real KISS Unix philosophy. For those interested take a look to the "ed" man page. It will take you just twenty minutes to learn how to use ed, of course you will not use that editor today but it is a good way to see how minds like Ken Thompson work. A good way to understand the KISS philosophy so much mentioned here by KDE users. I interpreted Black Poetry like another reference to my bad english and my "cryptic" approach. After suffering Mercury305 comments I am a bit susceptible. I promise to calm down. :-) Now I've used a 54 columns wide. Again my apologies. |
eloi, you said you used vi (by which I assume elvis) but if you use vim this makes everyone happy. I word-wrap with line-breaks at a fixed width in e-mails but not on forums (or other web pages).
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Totally off topic, but unless you are referencing every word in another post, please hit QUOTE and then PLEASE (please, pretty please) edit said quote to the pertinent information you will be referencing. It makes the thread much easier to read. Thanks :)
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times vim. But even using Kate I would configure it to use hard wrapped lines. See, being the masses the real dictator you will find that most web interfaces are designed to make Windows users happy. One annoying example are the widely speared tickets interfaces. I spent three days sending messages to the manager of a known FreeBSD based hosting company without receiving an answer. I end removing the service I've purchased thinking that the site was abandoned. I realize later that the problem was that the tickets interface removed all text below the quotation. The interface assumed you used top posting (Window Messenger practice). If you want make everyone happy (Windows and Unix users) you should change the perl regex on the php code to insert paragraph html tags just when "more than one" new line characters appear (I assume that you use pre html tags for code). Other good advice is to reduce a bit the font size. A user with a small screen should be able to read the posts with at least 64 characters wide columns. Finally, this interface hide the signature of the postings when you are not logged in. You have no need to do that since the interface use tags to informe google to "ignore" the links included. The misunderstood I had with the Alien Bob post was in part because of this. Off topic, but useful. |
@eloi: your posts come out looking horrible and unreadable on many small devices. Let the browser decide the wrapping that is appropriate for the device (or screen). Don't try to decide these things for me by forcing hard wrapping that happens to suit you.
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Please get this thread back on topic RSN,
TIA. |
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what I say in a TRUE|FALSE way. Do you think that my interest of posting here is complimenting or insulting people? My roundabout way of saying things aims to avoid to be trolled or accused of trolling each time I say something that could hurt the "fans" TRUE|FALSE approach. Perhaps doing that I got the opposite effect :-). By the way, I know that my english is horrible. But perhaps the mistake I did referencing to the links in the Alien Bob's post added confusion. I will give you an example that I wish will clarify my "cryptic" posts. I've read just one more Alien Bob article (in my life. And no, I am not experimenting nothing symilar to an obsesson with his articles) besides the games one. The first one was this*: http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/inte...the-gnome-out/ I made comments there like Walter (my real name). Read my comments and think again about how giving WYSIWYG facilities to Windows like users could not be compatible with a KISS intended system. Do you see the relation with systemd issue? We are talking about rc init scripts. You use Debian. Well, the Network Manager run like a daemon and is included in init.d. To be able to get a connection with simple tools like iwconfig (in case NM can't, which was the case with some Ralink chipsets) you must first kill the network manager process. Try now to restart the networking process on Debian: /etc/init.d/networking restart and see what happens. Then search in Google or Debian forums the solution for the issue. You will see why Lennart is fixing the fix. Now I will point something that will hurt the feelings of a lot of new Linux desktop users. The history tell us that till now (let's see what happens with Android), in the same way Windows won "naturally" its place in desktop market, Unix do it in server side. It could be said that in "general" terms the modifications you do to a OS to facilitate things to desktop users are in the better case useless to the server side. In the worst case they add bugs, security holes, incompatibilities, besides to gratuity complicate thinks to the server admin. I reach to the point to be asked by a VPS provider to update my kernel (Slackware virtual machine on CentOS) to update glibc (what he guessed was the cause of the issue), based in what a Debian user (one of his clients) had done to fix the issue because apt-get (I ignore if this is true) resolved the glib package like a kernel package dependency. The funny thing was that I had no need to have a kernel installed in Slackware, the kernel used was a patched CentOS one :-). That's the dark side of automagically resolving dependencies in package managers. See? Now I am pointing something negative about debian dependencies, am I insulting you now? Furthermore. In general terms the more you facilitate the computer use to humans the more you complicate things to the system. And in the same sense I told that Unix won "naturally" a good place on the server side market I consider what Apple did "counter natural" to the Unix bases. I could give you examples but I don't want to write a book here :-). At some point you (and Linux in general) must stablish priorities and choose to what extent to serve God or daemons. Walter (*) Eric didn't feel insulted in that opportunity. |
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It is not about what your browser decides. Like I explained it is the bad designed interface of the forum what forces you and me. Now new small devices will force Unix users to change good habits of decades! Another example of I what said to varishankar. Besides, I recieve by email linuxquestions updates that I read using Mutt. They are unreadable for me but I will not accuse you to forcing me. By the way, is this a linux forum? |
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:set tw=0 |
OK, could y'all please now get this thread back on topic?
TIA. |
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explained above (in case you know what a regex is). It is not the user who must change its text editor habits to workaround a bad web site design. I will not use top posting or soft wrapping just because most users out there uses Windows Messenger (or windows like interfaces running on linux like KDE) and, what is more important, because it is an idiot practice. Sorry. And again, while square minded people could think that this is off topic I insist that this is the real cause behind issues like systemd. In the FreeBSD forum happened to me the same, I was forced to use a soft wrapped text edition. This should not happen in a FreeBSD forum or in "the more Unix like linux distro" forum. I would ask what some guys here thinks KISS means but I already wasted a lot of time explaining myself, giving examples of real life, for nothing. This is another symptom of what I said in my second post of this thread. And to close my whole idea of all my posts in this forum this is the point I don't agree with Stallman: the taste of the masses is the real dictator. Like I said, "the unbeatable enemy". From now I will use mailing lists exclusively. I leave this forum permanently. If the moderators here think that my "distorted" english don't feet the level of this forum, that I am a troll, a drugs addict, that I use a "cryptic" language, I lack of courtesy, between other qualifications people here gave me in change feel free of removing all of my comments. By Walter |
//Pruned most OT-ness from this thread to keep things on topic.
@eloi: I don't care if you use Pendactyl, Benzedrine, Florida Snow or California Cornflakes but you do not keep dragging a thread OT after moderators warned 3 times. |
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interface bad code. Please, yesterday I've unchecked in my user preferences the option to receive your messages in my email, but I've received them anyway, could you please fix that bug too? What you've said about pentadactyl is insulting and ignorant is somebody here to moderate you? |
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I don't have a thing for green apples. But I do have a thing for habaneros, seranos and red bell peppers that weren't a product of highly engineered pesticides and fertilizers.
And yes, I have noticed that supply and demand have made it impossible to obtain the wholesome variety without paying obscene prices for them. So I grow my own. Of the people in my social sphere, that I see on a regular basis, I'm probably the only one that is dinking around in the dirt on any given day, to prepare for my next planting. If given the opportunity, one of them would be happy to tell me about how much time I'm wasting, and how I'm against progress. I think I understand perfectly, why someone would build and maintain Slackware. I also understand perfectly why people, maybe not "everyone", but plenty enough, would seek it out, and use it. d |
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In the mean time, would please be so kind as respect the conventions of the forum as they stand today, whether you like them or not. As you can clearly see, the rest of us are not hard wrapping our lines. Since you are in a minority of one, it is up to you to adjust, not us. It is called being polite. The problems of hard wrapping on this forum have already been explained to you and until such a time (if ever) that LQ supports your requested automatic conversion, it is up to you to do it before submitting your post. Quote:
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We really need a subforum called "The SoapBox" where anything goes and can be kept away from the normal chatter. users can only post, no editing or deleting. Once you've said you're peace, that's it.
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The gospel according to ...
From kikinovak
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Dear @dfwrider
Yes, you got me just in part. I am happy (sincerely) that you found a place where to do your planting. But did you see what happened here? Honestly it hurt me and depress me at the same time. The desktop computers like you know will disappear (or will be too expensive). More or late Linux will stop supporting them in favor of tablets. Everybody is using now the stupid Apple tablets and movil phones (or its imitation that run Android). This guys complaining to me here use them because is what "everybody does". If you explain them that (following the KISS principle) it would be better to use the phone to make calls (do one thing and do it right) and to sit in front of a desktop machine with the appropriate screen and a real keyboard at time to read and post in a forum they will not hear your reasons. Even after see that doing so my hard wrapped text is "by far" more readable than the rest in a normal screen. You can lose hours giving them one hundred of worthy of consideration reasons, explaining them why it is better doing this instead of that. They don't know about reasons, they don't have a criterion, they don't have a philosophy, at time to choose they just do what "everybody does". They could be going in the opposite direction to what they proclaim to defend but, doing it all together, they are right :-). Some of them can say you, "See I am a rebel, I don't use Windows, I use Slackware", just a black sheep. Even if you, good intentioned, politely explain them that in that direction they will be shorn, they will still reproach you "meeeee meeeee, why aren't you doing the same of all of us?, meeee meeeee". And, believe me, they will not forgive you to do something different, they assume that is your duty do the same. Are they all smoking?, why aren't you smoking? You are not normal! If they are crying out "Viva Perón" or "Heil Hittler" or "Hail Hail Rock and Roll" and see you silent they will meeeee meeeee forcing you to do the same. At some point when two or three are "meeeing" the shepherd appear. The shepherd has no interest in your reasons neither, his business are the sheep. His job is to maintain the sheep calm and doing all the same and going in the same direction. Two thousand years fable; they are experts in managing the sheep. He doesn't care if Pentadactil or Orange Juice, if what you do or say is against the forum popularity you are OT. The sheep that assume you will be afraid like them of the shepherd start to "meeee" more loudly reproaching you "What do you think you are?" Look, I see you are a bit more optimistic (or less pessimistic) than me. Enjoy the last years of the real Unix experience. One day, you will not have space for your orchard. All will be covered by cement. -- Dear @hitest Thanks for your advice. But, see, I really don't care about doing a smart move. I am unable to do business with shepherds or sheep. It's against my nature. |
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