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eloi 08-21-2012 04:39 AM

slackware and systemd (OT)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305 (Post 4757154)
I do not understand your Logic at all.

Let's see if some years from now you understand my logic. ;-)

Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a
CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't
understand do it again twenty years from now and so on.

One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor.

T3slider 08-21-2012 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4759912)
Let's see if some years from now you understand my logic. ;-)

Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a
CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't
understand do it again twenty years from now and so on.

One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor.

You shouldn't eat fish because of the trees. What? You don't understand my logic?

Let's see if some years from now you understand my logic. ;-)

Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a
CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't
understand do it again twenty years from now and so on.

One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor.

There is no need to patronise. Just granting yourself a sense of supreme knowledge and entitlement does not all of a sudden make your argument logical.

Mercury305 08-21-2012 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4759912)
Let's see if some years from now you understand my logic. ;-)

Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a
CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't
understand do it again twenty years from now and so on.

One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor.

Lay off the |
drugs are bad.

eloi 08-22-2012 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3slider (Post 4760376)
You shouldn't eat fish because of the trees. What? You don't understand my logic?

Let's see if some years from now you understand my logic. ;-)

Save all I've written in this thread to a txt and backup it to a
CD. Read it again ten years from now. If you still don't
understand do it again twenty years from now and so on.

One day you'll may want to apologize. The key is roquesor.

There is no need to patronise. Just granting yourself a sense of supreme knowledge and entitlement does not all of a sudden make your argument logical.


When kikinovak told me about GPS, motorcycles and milk I could
answer him "What relation have motorcycles and milk with
systemd?" But, without consuming drugs and not having any
supreme knowledge, I am able to understand an analogy.

Besides rational, you need abstraction and association
capabilities. And what is more important, maturity. All that
will not grant you a supreme knowledge but at least you will not
chatter away like Mercury305 does (hey, he is a clever guy and he
is not bad intentioned; just a bit annoying and naive).

There are two points I agree with Stallman. 1) He consider the
social-human aspect of the issue more relevant than the
technical one. 2) He assumes you will be disposed to renounce
to some privileges to stay coherent with your cause.

Saying it simple: I find that who really miss the point are
those that blame GPL just because they are not able to run some
software on linux. More specially when the software
is a stupid toy.

I used the hyperbole "people suffering starvation" (in part to
follow the kikinovak "food" analogy) like an example of the most
important human resource in the aim of extending the
"priorities" to the whole human-social context (what you
expect of somebody talking about ethical behind of individuals
rights). Your lecture should be "You are complaining about
something that is not relevant to (and coherent with) the
context of the ideas of who (Stallman) you criticize".

Taking in care you felt entitled to discredit my logic even
without having read what I wrote (and without explaining why you
think that, what could be considered a plain insult) I will not
advice you to save it to a CD; the second time you will do the
same. That's what humble people like you use to do: "If I don't
understand (at a first sight) is because it has no logic".

But you don't offend me at all; I guess the average audience
here is too much younger than me; that's why some of you doesn't
understand my approach. Besides patronizing, what option I had
in front of some kind of comments?

For example, you said : "the idea that users have any real power
is such an idealistic and unrealistic view of the world".
Whithout the aim of insulting, your point of view can be
anything but mature.

When I talked about users I meant "the masses" not the
individual. You, me and even Volkering or Linus have no power
at all in front of "supply and demand". If most people likes
red apples (yes, about food again) and only you like green ones
take for sure the green apples will almost disappear from
stores. That's real world. For example, you will see RedHat
doing the same that Microsoft in some ways, because both
companies are evil? No, to survive in the market they are
subordinated to "supply and demand". Why Microsoft would think
about selling green apples? The farther your projects are from
what "most people do" the harder will be for you to acomplish
them, and like a side effect, the more the privileges you will be
forced to renounce to keep coherent with your cause.

Again read carefully what I've written and (while you don't feel
yourself "the owner of True") if you don't understand, at least
give me the benefit of the doubt.

Now, about systemd (I will over explain for those with low
association capabilities). Do you think that those that
complain about systemd are because some tech feature? Is it
about if systemd is a good or bad piece of software or if it get
the job done? Absolutely not. Some users have other concerns
at time to administer a Linux system than installing software
with Debian Synaptic. For example, you can learn to manage a
server with Mandriva Control Center, but what will you do in
front of a RedHat, Debian or Slackware machine, installing
Mandrake Wizards? :-) In a web server; do you think you need
cPanel? Do you think you need phpMyAdmin? Anyway you will be
forced to use them just because it is "what most people want".
I tried hardly to use Slackware like web server on a VPS (I
explained about it in other post in this forum). After a year
of having pointless discussions with more than twenty companies
around the world I had to end using CentOS (in a reseller).
Supply and demand. Now each time I want to make a modification,
like updating my custom CA (certificate authority) I must to
explain the supposed "Linux Techs" how to edit apache config
files because they just know how to do it using cPanel. Those
people have no concerns about systemd because they ignore (and
have no interest on) how to edit a config file or a shell
script.

Other example, I had ftp access to an important university site
(because a client of mine has a web page there). Just after
taking a look (a Solaris OS) I see two backups of the shadow
file with world readable permissions. I downloaded it to my
machine and after seconds john the ripper cracked more than 30
passwords (most of them "cocacola"). With some of them I get
ssh access. That's the kind of *supposed* Unix admins that think
that administering Unix from guied wizards is the modern approach.

Finally, I am a very, very rare person, in the sense I will
accept a good argument even if it goes against my personal
(immediate) interests. On the contrary, most people will
ignore, attack or even kill you (this is not an hyperbole) just
to defend a stupid vicious habit. The today's widespread drugs
dependency behavior.

Hey, I will no paraphrase again. Be equally exigent with your
thinking than you are with the others.

GazL 08-22-2012 08:08 AM

There's never a ravenous flesh-eating Morlock around when you need one is there?

brianL 08-22-2012 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GazL (Post 4761039)
There's never a ravenous flesh-eating Morlock around when you need one is there?

:D
@eloi
A bit of constructive criticism: could you use the same formatting as the rest of us? I keep trying to read your posts as if they were poetry, blank verse. TIA

hitest 08-22-2012 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GazL (Post 4761039)
There's never a ravenous flesh-eating Morlock around when you need one is there?

+1

Haha :)

eloi 08-22-2012 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianL (Post 4761051)
:D
@eloi
A bit of constructive criticism: could you use the same formatting as the rest of us? I keep trying to read your posts as if they were poetry, blank verse. TIA

Tell me how you dress too so I buy the same clodes to make you happy.

eloi 08-22-2012 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GazL (Post 4761039)
There's never a ravenous flesh-eating Morlock around when you need one is there?

Is this the "format" brianl propose me to imitate? Insulting?
I'd like to see you doing that in front of me.

Mercury305 08-22-2012 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4761011)
When kikinovak told me about GPS, motorcycles and milk I could
answer him "What relation have motorcycles and milk with
systemd?" But, without consuming drugs and not having any
supreme knowledge, I am able to understand an analogy.

Besides rational, you need abstraction and association
capabilities. And what is more important, maturity. All that
will not grant you a supreme knowledge but at least you will not
chatter away like Mercury305 does (hey, he is a clever guy and he
is not bad intentioned; just a bit annoying and naive).

There are two points I agree with Stallman. 1) He consider the
social-human aspect of the issue more relevant than the
technical one. 2) He assumes you will be disposed to renounce
to some privileges to stay coherent with your cause.

Saying it simple: I find that who really miss the point are
those that blame GPL just because they are not able to run some
software on linux. More specially when the software
is a stupid toy.

I used the hyperbole "people suffering starvation" (in part to
follow the kikinovak "food" analogy) like an example of the most
important human resource in the aim of extending the
"priorities" to the whole social human-social context (what you
expect of somebody talking about ethical behind of individuals
rights). Your lecture should be "You are complaining about
something that is not relevant to (and coherent with) the
context of the ideas of who (Stallman) you criticize".

Taking in care you felt entitled to discredit my logic even
without having read what I wrote (and without explaining why you
think that, what could be considered a plain insult) I will not
advice you to save it to a CD; the second time you will do the
same. That's what humble people like you use to do: "If I don't
understand (at a first sight) is because it has no logic".

But you don't offend me at all; I guess the average age of the
audience here is too much younger than mine; that's why some of
you doesn't understand my approach. Besides patronizing, what
option I had in front of some kind of comments?

For example, you said : "the idea that users have any real power
is such an idealistic and unrealistic view of the world".
Whithout the aim of insulting, your point of view can be
anything but mature.

When I talked about users I meant "the masses" not the
individual. You, me and even Volkering or Linus have no power
at all in front of "supply and demand". If most people likes
red apples (yes, about food again) and only you like green ones
take for sure the green apples will almost disappear from
stores. That's real world. For example, you will see RedHat
doing the same that Microsoft in some ways, because both
companies are evil? No, to survive in the market they are
subordinated to "supply and demand". Why Microsoft would think
about selling green apples? The farther your projects are from
what "most people do" the harder you will have, and like a side
effect, the most privileges you will be forced to renounce to
keep coherent with your cause.

Again read carefully what I've written and (while you don't feel
"the owner of True") if you don't understand, at least give me
the benefit of the doubt.

Now, about systemd (I will over explain for those with low
association capabilities). Do you think that those that
complain about systemd are because some tech feature? Is it
about if systemd is a good or bad piece of software or if it get
the job done? Absolutely not. Some users have other concerns
at time to administer a Linux system than installing software
with Debian Synaptic. For example, you can learn to manage a
server with Mandriva Control Center, but what will you do in
front of a RedHat, Debian or Slackware machine, installing
Mandrake Wizards? :-) In a web server; do you think you need
cPanel? Do you think you need phpMyAdmin? Anyway you will be
forced to use them just because it is "what most people want".
I tried hardly to use Slackware like web server on a VPS (I
explained about it in other post in this forum). After a year
of having pointless discussions with more than twenty companies
around the world I had to fall in using CentOS (in a reseller).
Supply and demand. Now each time I want to make a modification,
like updating my custom CA (certificate authority) I must to
explain the supposed "Linux Techs" how to edit apache config
files because the just know how to do it using cPanel. Those
people have no concerns about systemd because the ignore (and
have no interest on) how to edit a config file or a shell
script.

Other example, I had ftp access to an important university site
(because a client of mine has a web page there). Just after
taking a look (a Solaris OS) I see two backups of the shadow
file with world readable permissions. I downloaded it to my
machine and after seconds john the ripper cracked more than 30
passwords (most of them "cocacola"). With some of them I get
ssh access. That's the kind of *supposed* Unix admins that think
that administering Unix from guied wizards is the modern approach.

Finally, I am a very, very rare person, in the sense I will
accept a good argument even if it goes against my personal
(immediate) interests. On the contrary, most people will
ignore, attack or even kill you (this is not an hyperbole) just
to defend a stupid vicious habit. The today's widespread drugs
dependency behavior.

Hey, I will no paraphrase again. Be equally exigent with your
thinking than you are with the others.

After tryng to decipher your text. I realize some things you are trying to say but you are very off point. Why? Because you view the world from a distorted angle. Hence your offers and suggestions are as distorted as your English.
First of all Slackware is not about serving the Users. Slackware is about being Slackware. If it served the masses then it would be just like any distro. There are things that I don't like in Slackware but there are things that I don't like in lets say Ubuntu.
Now when you compare the stuff I don't like in Ubuntu and Slackware. I prefer Slackware even though Ubuntu caters to the masses.
Slackware serves a specific geeky type of users. Users that don't enjoy GUI automation, and like to dig the underlying cause of how things really work.
Just by going with the Masses does not make your distro a good distro. Even if it sells does that make it better? No.
My honest opinion? The masses are stupid. The masses watch Football games all day. Believe in most things they see on TV or now adays its Youtube. Which is why there are so many Ron Paul supporters now a days thinking he will save USA. Not realizing that he is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
So I myself do not fall into the category of Masses in anything. For example 1 I hate watching sports. 2 I hate "group thinking" and backwards traditions. I am a pragmatist. I don't go for whatever is most popular is the best. I go for what works... Hence, I am not attracted by the OS that the masses use. I only like what I like. I like a lot about Slackware which is why I use it. But I also agree with the rest of the people in here that Patrick should continue making the final decisions. Why? Because I like his style. Even if I don't agree with everything with him. I still like the end product more then Ubuntu. Even if its a pain to download and install software on Slackware over Ubuntu. I still prefer the System so much more because I feel I can control it easier... yes, even with my limited knowledge on Linux. Slackware is great the way Patrick makes it. All I can do is give him recommendations and he can choose what he wants to add into it or not. I like that. Slackware is IMMUNE to that whole Supply and Demand theory you have spit out.
Why? Because Slackware is not about the Money. If it was Patrick would be working at Red Hat right now most likely. But Patrick is doing what he wants to do in his distro and that my friend is Priceless. Slackware is thus a REAL DISTRO. Unlike the User Catered Distros out there. Its like a work of art. Slackware doesn't give a damn what "Users" want. It does what it finds is Right and what works best with Slackware Philosophy.

eloi 08-22-2012 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305 (Post 4761162)
After tryng to decipher your text. I realize some things you are trying to say but you are very off point. Why? Because you view the world from a distorted angle. Hence your offers and suggestions are as distorted as your English.
First of all Slackware is not about serving the Users. Slackware is about being Slackware. If it served the masses then it would be just like any distro. There are things that I don't like in Slackware but there are things that I don't like in lets say Ubuntu.
Now when you compare the stuff I don't like in Ubuntu and Slackware. I prefer Slackware even though Ubuntu caters to the masses.
Slackware serves a specific geeky type of users. Users that don't enjoy GUI automation, and like to dig the underlying cause of how things really work.
Just by going with the Masses does not make your distro a good distro. Even if it sells does that make it better? No.
My honest opinion? The masses are stupid. The masses watch Football games all day. Believe in most things they see on TV or now adays its Youtube. Which is why there are so many Ron Paul supporters now a days thinking he will save USA. Not realizing that he is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
So I myself do not fall into the category of Masses in anything. For example 1 I hate watching sports. 2 I hate "group thinking" and backwards traditions. I am a pragmatist. I don't go for whatever is most popular is the best. I go for what works... Hence, I am not attracted by the OS that the masses use. I only like what I like. I like a lot about Slackware which is why I use it. But I also agree with the rest of the people in here that Patrick should continue making the final decisions. Why? Because I like his style. Even if I don't agree with everything with him. I still like the end product more then Ubuntu. Even if its a pain to download and install software on Slackware over Ubuntu. I still prefer the System so much more because I feel I can control it easier... yes, even with my limited knowledge on Linux. Slackware is great the way Patrick makes it. All I can do is give him recommendations and he can choose what he wants to add into it or not. I like that. Slackware is IMMUNE to that whole Supply and Demand theory you have spit out.
Why? Because Slackware is not about the Money. If it was Patrick would be working at Red Hat right now most likely. But Patrick is doing what he wants to do in his distro and that my friend is Priceless. Slackware is thus a REAL DISTRO. Unlike the User Catered Distros out there. Its like a work of art. Slackware doesn't give a damn what "Users" want. It does what it finds is Right and what works best with Slackware Philosophy.

I used the same "distorted" english (it's not my mother tongue) to
write the post you qualified like "excellent and clever".

Let's people here to enjoy your correct english and Slackware
users to enjoy its immunity.

Excuse me, I have Morlocks and starved childs to feed.

hitest 08-22-2012 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4761211)
kernel-P4N1C, don't insult. Just mock like above. :-)

Gazl's comment was funny without directly naming or insulting you. :)

eloi 08-22-2012 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vharishankar (Post 4761186)
A lot of your suggestions are impractical for
people who have day jobs and don't have oodles of time to tinker with their
computer.

Use the time you are wasting here.

eloi 08-22-2012 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitest (Post 4761241)
To get back on topic. I am happy with what ever software choices that Mr. Volkerding makes for future Slackware releases. I trust his judgement. He will make the final call on systemd.

For new people. Above other example of what is the "formatting"
to use here. This kind of useful comments are all well received.

GazL 08-22-2012 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitest (Post 4761237)
Gazl's comment was funny without directly naming or insulting you. :)

Yes it was intended as a light-hearted quip made for comedy value and the Time Machine reference in his/her chosen username, I certainly wasn't expecting the implied threat of violence I got in response. :(

As Alien Bob so succinctly put it earlier: *plonk*

vharishankar 08-22-2012 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4761243)
Use the time you are wasting here.

Certainly been a waste of time deciphering your cryptic posts. Or rather your trolling.

eloi 08-22-2012 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GazL (Post 4761256)
Yes it was intended as a light-hearted quip made for comedy value and the Time Machine reference in his/her chosen username, I certainly wasn't expecting the implied threat of violence I got in response. :(

As Alien Bob so succinctly put it earlier: *plonk*

Another good example of the "formatting" accepted here. You must agree in all
with people like Eric. Take what you honestly think to other place.

I am he. From now you can call me Morlock. :-)

eloi 08-22-2012 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vharishankar (Post 4761268)
Certainly been a waste of time deciphering your cryptic posts. Or rather your trolling.

Honestly. Download the Rute Linux manual (a bit outdated but good), Slackware
book or any of the lot of manuals about Linux basics. You will thanks me this
sugestion and you will understand my "cryptic" posts. I am not trolling, I
have better things to do with my life.

I really like your web site. That's why I used in one of my posts the new
Google interface like an example. Your site is not bloated of java script
that today are widely used like a "modern" interface. "Modern" is more about
fashion than innovation.

TobiSGD 08-22-2012 12:14 PM

All, stop the trolling and insulting. This thread, despite its topic, could be kept civilized for about 230 posts, so now don't change that.

brianL 08-22-2012 12:39 PM

@ eloi
By "formatting", I meant the length of the lines of text in your posts, nothing to do with the content.

eloi 08-22-2012 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianL (Post 4761314)
@ eloi
By "formatting", I meant the length of the lines of text in your posts, nothing to do with the content.

Well, I am happy to hear that. My apologies brianL.
See I use pentadactyl. So I press C+I in the textarea
and get opened rxvt with vi. I use vi for all. Some
time ago I understood why hard wrap of lines was not a
Stone Age practice. For example, I edit shell, php,
latex, and mails, all with vi. But if you use soft
wrapped lines, like by default use Kate, Quanta, Kile or
Kmail you will see a slow down in scrolling a very
large file. It is less hard to the buffer (memory) of
your editor to read short lines. One more reason to
learn and appreciate the real KISS Unix philosophy.
For those interested take a look to the "ed" man page.
It will take you just twenty minutes to learn how to
use ed, of course you will not use that editor today
but it is a good way to see how minds like Ken
Thompson work. A good way to understand the KISS
philosophy so much mentioned here by KDE users.

I interpreted Black Poetry like another reference
to my bad english and my "cryptic" approach.
After suffering Mercury305 comments I am a bit
susceptible. I promise to calm down. :-)

Now I've used a 54 columns wide.
Again my apologies.

T3slider 08-22-2012 02:27 PM

eloi, you said you used vi (by which I assume elvis) but if you use vim this makes everyone happy. I word-wrap with line-breaks at a fixed width in e-mails but not on forums (or other web pages).

brianL 08-22-2012 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4761352)
My apologies brianL.

No need.
Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4761352)
See I use pentadactyl.

I thought it was iambic pentameter. :)

damgar 08-22-2012 09:46 PM

Totally off topic, but unless you are referencing every word in another post, please hit QUOTE and then PLEASE (please, pretty please) edit said quote to the pertinent information you will be referencing. It makes the thread much easier to read. Thanks :)

vharishankar 08-22-2012 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4761294)
Honestly. Download the Rute Linux manual (a bit outdated but good), Slackware
book or any of the lot of manuals about Linux basics. You will thanks me this
sugestion and you will understand my "cryptic" posts. I am not trolling, I
have better things to do with my life.

I really like your web site. That's why I used in one of my posts the new
Google interface like an example. Your site is not bloated of java script
that today are widely used like a "modern" interface. "Modern" is more about
fashion than innovation.

You have a roundabout way of saying things which takes time for me to understand. I am unsure about whether you are insulting or complimenting me, but OK, thanks for the clarification and you thoughts about my website. :)

eloi 08-23-2012 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3slider (Post 4761411)
eloi, you said you used vi (by which I assume elvis) but if you use vim this makes everyone happy. I word-wrap with line-breaks at a fixed width in e-mails but not on forums (or other web pages).

No, I don't like elvis. Some times I use nvi, some
times vim. But even using Kate I would configure it
to use hard wrapped lines.

See, being the masses the real dictator you will find
that most web interfaces are designed to make Windows
users happy.

One annoying example are the widely speared tickets
interfaces. I spent three days sending messages to
the manager of a known FreeBSD based hosting company
without receiving an answer. I end removing the
service I've purchased thinking that the site was
abandoned. I realize later that the problem was that
the tickets interface removed all text below the
quotation. The interface assumed you used top posting
(Window Messenger practice).

If you want make everyone happy (Windows and Unix
users) you should change the perl regex on the php
code to insert paragraph html tags just when "more
than one" new line characters appear (I assume that you
use pre html tags for code).

Other good advice is to reduce a bit the font size. A
user with a small screen should be able to read the
posts with at least 64 characters wide columns.

Finally, this interface hide the signature of the
postings when you are not logged in. You have no need
to do that since the interface use tags to informe
google to "ignore" the links included. The
misunderstood I had with the Alien Bob post was in
part because of this.

Off topic, but useful.

ruario 08-23-2012 05:48 AM

@eloi: your posts come out looking horrible and unreadable on many small devices. Let the browser decide the wrapping that is appropriate for the device (or screen). Don't try to decide these things for me by forcing hard wrapping that happens to suit you.

ponce 08-23-2012 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruario (Post 4761954)
@eloi: your posts come out looking horrible and unreadable on many small devices. Let the browser decide the wrapping that is appropriate for the device (or screen). Don't try to decide these things for me by forcing hard wrapping that happens to suit you.

same problem here: unreadable from the phone.

unSpawn 08-23-2012 06:26 AM

Please get this thread back on topic RSN,
TIA.

eloi 08-23-2012 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vharishankar (Post 4761690)
You have a roundabout way of saying things which takes time for me to understand. I am unsure about whether you are insulting or complimenting me, but OK, thanks for the clarification and you thoughts about my website. :)

Try to understand the reasons behind instead of judge
what I say in a TRUE|FALSE way. Do you think that my
interest of posting here is complimenting or insulting
people?

My roundabout way of saying things aims to avoid to be
trolled or accused of trolling each time I say
something that could hurt the "fans" TRUE|FALSE
approach. Perhaps doing that I got the opposite
effect :-).

By the way, I know that my english is horrible. But
perhaps the mistake I did referencing to the links in
the Alien Bob's post added confusion.

I will give you an example that I wish will clarify my
"cryptic" posts. I've read just one more Alien Bob
article (in my life. And no, I am not experimenting
nothing symilar to an obsesson with his articles)
besides the games one. The first one was this*:

http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/inte...the-gnome-out/

I made comments there like Walter (my real name). Read my
comments and think again about how giving WYSIWYG
facilities to Windows like users could not be
compatible with a KISS intended system. Do you see the
relation with systemd issue? We are talking about
rc init scripts.

You use Debian. Well, the Network Manager run like a
daemon and is included in init.d. To be able to get a
connection with simple tools like iwconfig (in case NM
can't, which was the case with some Ralink chipsets)
you must first kill the network manager process. Try
now to restart the networking process on Debian:

/etc/init.d/networking restart

and see what happens. Then search in Google or Debian
forums the solution for the issue. You will see why
Lennart is fixing the fix.

Now I will point something that will hurt the feelings
of a lot of new Linux desktop users. The history tell
us that till now (let's see what happens with
Android), in the same way Windows won "naturally" its
place in desktop market, Unix do it in server side.
It could be said that in "general" terms the
modifications you do to a OS to facilitate things to
desktop users are in the better case useless to the
server side. In the worst case they add bugs,
security holes, incompatibilities, besides to gratuity
complicate thinks to the server admin. I reach to the
point to be asked by a VPS provider to update my
kernel (Slackware virtual machine on CentOS) to update
glibc (what he guessed was the cause of the issue),
based in what a Debian user (one of his clients) had
done to fix the issue because apt-get (I ignore if
this is true) resolved the glib package like a kernel
package dependency. The funny thing was that I had no
need to have a kernel installed in Slackware, the
kernel used was a patched CentOS one :-). That's the
dark side of automagically resolving dependencies in
package managers. See? Now I am pointing something
negative about debian dependencies, am I insulting you
now?

Furthermore. In general terms the more you facilitate
the computer use to humans the more you complicate
things to the system. And in the same sense I told
that Unix won "naturally" a good place on the server
side market I consider what Apple did "counter natural"
to the Unix bases. I could give you examples but I
don't want to write a book here :-).

At some point you (and Linux in general) must stablish
priorities and choose to what extent to serve God or
daemons.


Walter


(*) Eric didn't feel insulted in that opportunity.

eloi 08-23-2012 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruario (Post 4761954)
@eloi: your posts come out looking horrible and unreadable on many small devices. Let the browser decide the wrapping that is appropriate for the device (or screen). Don't try to decide these things for me by forcing hard wrapping that happens to suit you.

In which way I am forcing you?

It is not about what your browser decides. Like I
explained it is the bad designed interface of the
forum what forces you and me.

Now new small devices will force Unix users
to change good habits of decades! Another example
of I what said to varishankar.

Besides, I recieve by email linuxquestions updates
that I read using Mutt. They are unreadable for
me but I will not accuse you to forcing me.

By the way, is this a linux forum?

kikinovak 08-23-2012 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4762013)
In which way I am forcing you?

It is not about what your browser decides. Like I
explained it is the bad designed interface of the
forum what forces you and me.

If you use Mutt, then use it with Vim as an editor. And avoid forced linebreaks with the tw (textwidth) option like this:

Code:

:set tw=0
Formatting your messages in a way that everybody can read them correctly in their browser is a basic courtesy.

unSpawn 08-23-2012 08:39 AM

OK, could y'all please now get this thread back on topic?
TIA.

eloi 08-23-2012 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kikinovak (Post 4762088)
If you use Mutt, then use it with Vim as an editor. And avoid forced linebreaks with the tw (textwidth) option like this:

Code:

:set tw=0
Formatting your messages in a way that everybody can read them correctly in their browser is a basic courtesy.

I've designed sites with php. You must do what I
explained above (in case you know what a regex is).
It is not the user who must change its text editor
habits to workaround a bad web site design.

I will not use top posting or soft wrapping just
because most users out there uses Windows Messenger
(or windows like interfaces running on linux like
KDE) and, what is more important, because it is an
idiot practice. Sorry.

And again, while square minded people could think that
this is off topic I insist that this is the real cause
behind issues like systemd. In the FreeBSD forum
happened to me the same, I was forced to use a soft
wrapped text edition. This should not happen in a
FreeBSD forum or in "the more Unix like linux distro"
forum. I would ask what some guys here thinks KISS
means but I already wasted a lot of time explaining
myself, giving examples of real life, for nothing.

This is another symptom of what I said in my second
post of this thread. And to close my whole idea of
all my posts in this forum this is the point I don't
agree with Stallman: the taste of the masses is the
real dictator. Like I said, "the unbeatable enemy".

From now I will use mailing lists exclusively. I
leave this forum permanently.

If the moderators here think that my "distorted"
english don't feet the level of this forum, that I am
a troll, a drugs addict, that I use a "cryptic"
language, I lack of courtesy, between other
qualifications people here gave me in change feel free
of removing all of my comments.

By

Walter

unSpawn 08-23-2012 01:16 PM

//Pruned most OT-ness from this thread to keep things on topic.

@eloi: I don't care if you use Pendactyl, Benzedrine, Florida Snow or California Cornflakes but you do not keep dragging a thread OT after moderators warned 3 times.

eloi 08-24-2012 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unSpawn (Post 4762366)
//Pruned most OT-ness from this thread to keep things on topic.

@eloi: I don't care if you use Pendactyl, Benzedrine, Florida Snow or California Cornflakes but you do not keep dragging a thread OT after moderators warned 3 times.

So you consider OT all that put in evidence the forum
interface bad code. Please, yesterday I've unchecked
in my user preferences the option to receive your messages
in my email, but I've received them anyway, could you
please fix that bug too?

What you've said about pentadactyl is insulting and ignorant
is somebody here to moderate you?

Mercury305 08-24-2012 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4762830)
So you consider OT all that put in evidence the forum
interface bad code. Please, yesterday I've unchecked
in my user preferences the option to receive your messages
in my email, but I've received them anyway, could you
please fix that bug too?

What you've said about pentadactyl is insulting and ignorant
is somebody here to moderate you?

this guy is a waste of text.

dfwrider 08-24-2012 01:35 AM

I don't have a thing for green apples. But I do have a thing for habaneros, seranos and red bell peppers that weren't a product of highly engineered pesticides and fertilizers.

And yes, I have noticed that supply and demand have made it impossible to obtain the wholesome variety without paying obscene prices for them.

So I grow my own. Of the people in my social sphere, that I see on a regular basis, I'm probably the only one that is dinking around in the dirt on any given day, to prepare for my next planting.

If given the opportunity, one of them would be happy to tell me about how much time I'm wasting, and how I'm against progress.

I think I understand perfectly, why someone would build and maintain Slackware. I also understand perfectly why people, maybe not "everyone", but plenty enough, would seek it out, and use it.

d

ruario 08-24-2012 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4762830)
So you consider OT all that put in evidence the forum interface bad code.

In a thread that was supposed to be about systemd, yes that is obviously off-topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4762341)
It is not the user who must change its text editor habits to workaround a bad web site design.

If you think the forum should change or convert your hard wrapped lines for you, or you have other complaints or suggestions about how it should work, why don't you start a thread in LQ Suggestions & Feedback?

In the mean time, would please be so kind as respect the conventions of the forum as they stand today, whether you like them or not. As you can clearly see, the rest of us are not hard wrapping our lines. Since you are in a minority of one, it is up to you to adjust, not us. It is called being polite. The problems of hard wrapping on this forum have already been explained to you and until such a time (if ever) that LQ supports your requested automatic conversion, it is up to you to do it before submitting your post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4762341)
From now I will use mailing lists exclusively. I leave this forum permanently.

Alternatively, yes, this is the other option.

ReaperX7 08-24-2012 01:49 AM

We really need a subforum called "The SoapBox" where anything goes and can be kept away from the normal chatter. users can only post, no editing or deleting. Once you've said you're peace, that's it.

TracyTiger 08-24-2012 11:50 AM

The gospel according to ...
 
From kikinovak
Quote:

And I tell you, you are Patrick, and on this rock-solid distro I will build my desktop,
and Bill Gates of Windows shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18, first draft)
I see you've already numerically structured one namespace (Matthew) on slackdocs. Can we expect a similar structure from other apostles? :)

hitest 08-24-2012 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4762830)
So you consider OT all that put in evidence the forum
interface bad code. Please, yesterday I've unchecked
in my user preferences the option to receive your messages
in my email, but I've received them anyway, could you
please fix that bug too?

What you've said about pentadactyl is insulting and ignorant
is somebody here to moderate you?

I suggest that you listen to unSpawn. This post is not a smart move in my opinion.

eloi 08-24-2012 03:26 PM

Dear @dfwrider

Yes, you got me just in part. I am happy (sincerely)
that you found a place where to do your planting. But
did you see what happened here? Honestly it hurt me
and depress me at the same time.

The desktop computers like you know will disappear (or
will be too expensive). More or late Linux will stop
supporting them in favor of tablets. Everybody is
using now the stupid Apple tablets and movil phones
(or its imitation that run Android). This guys
complaining to me here use them because is what
"everybody does". If you explain them that (following
the KISS principle) it would be better to use the
phone to make calls (do one thing and do it right) and
to sit in front of a desktop machine with the
appropriate screen and a real keyboard at time to read
and post in a forum they will not hear your reasons.
Even after see that doing so my hard wrapped text is
"by far" more readable than the rest in a normal
screen.

You can lose hours giving them one hundred of worthy
of consideration reasons, explaining them why it is
better doing this instead of that. They don't know
about reasons, they don't have a criterion, they don't
have a philosophy, at time to choose they just do what
"everybody does". They could be going in the opposite
direction to what they proclaim to defend but, doing
it all together, they are right :-). Some of them can
say you, "See I am a rebel, I don't use Windows, I
use Slackware", just a black sheep. Even if you, good
intentioned, politely explain them that in that
direction they will be shorn, they will still reproach
you "meeeee meeeee, why aren't you doing the same of
all of us?, meeee meeeee". And, believe me, they will
not forgive you to do something different, they assume
that is your duty do the same. Are they all smoking?,
why aren't you smoking? You are not normal! If they
are crying out "Viva Perón" or "Heil Hittler" or "Hail
Hail Rock and Roll" and see you silent they will
meeeee meeeee forcing you to do the same.

At some point when two or three are "meeeing" the
shepherd appear. The shepherd has no interest in your
reasons neither, his business are the sheep. His job
is to maintain the sheep calm and doing all the same
and going in the same direction. Two thousand years
fable; they are experts in managing the sheep. He
doesn't care if Pentadactil or Orange Juice, if what
you do or say is against the forum popularity you are
OT. The sheep that assume you will be afraid like
them of the shepherd start to "meeee" more loudly
reproaching you "What do you think you are?"

Look, I see you are a bit more optimistic (or less
pessimistic) than me. Enjoy the last years of the
real Unix experience. One day, you will not have
space for your orchard. All will be covered by
cement.

--
Dear @hitest

Thanks for your advice. But, see, I really don't care
about doing a smart move. I am unable to do business
with shepherds or sheep. It's against my nature.

Mercury305 08-24-2012 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4763424)
Dear @dfwrider

Yes, you got me just in part. I am happy (sincerely)
that you found a place where to do your planting. But
did you see what happened here? Honestly it hurt me
and depress me at the same time.

The desktop computers like you know will disappear (or
will be too expensive). More or late Linux will stop
supporting them in favor of tablets. Everybody is
using now the stupid Apple tablets and movil phones
(or its imitation that run Android). This guys
complaining to me here use them because is what
"everybody does". If you explain them that (following
the KISS principle) it would be better to use the
phone to make calls (do one thing and do it right) and
to sit in front of a desktop machine with the
appropriate screen and a real keyboard at time to read
and post in a forum they will not hear your reasons.
Even after see that doing so my hard wrapped text is
"by far" more readable than the rest in a normal
screen.

You can lose hours giving them one hundred of worthy
of consideration reasons, explaining them why it is
better doing this instead of that. They don't know
about reasons, they don't have a criterion, they don't
have a philosophy, at time to choose they just do what
"everybody does". They could be going in the opposite
direction to what they proclaim to defend but, doing
it all together, they are right :-). Some of them can
say you, "See I am a rebel, I don't use Windows, I
use Slackware", just a black sheep. Even if you, good
intentioned, politely explain them that in that
direction they will be shorn, they will still reproach
you "meeeee meeeee, why aren't you doing the same of
all of us?, meeee meeeee". And, believe me, they will
not forgive you to do something different, they assume
that is your duty do the same. Are they all smoking?,
why aren't you smoking? You are not normal! If they
are crying out "Viva Perón" or "Heil Hittler" or "Hail
Hail Rock and Roll" and see you silent they will
meeeee meeeee forcing you to do the same.

At some point when two or three are "meeeing" the
shepherd appear. The shepherd has no interest in your
reasons neither, his business are the sheep. His job
is to maintain the sheep calm and doing all the same
and going in the same direction. Two thousand years
fable; they are experts in managing the sheep. He
doesn't care if Pentadactil or Orange Juice, if what
you do or say is against the forum popularity you are
OT. The sheep that assume you will be afraid like
them of the shepherd start to "meeee" more loudly
reproaching you "What do you think you are?"

Look, I see you are a bit more optimistic (or less
pessimistic) than me. Enjoy the last years of the
real Unix experience. One day, you will not have
space for your orchard. All will be covered by
cement.

--
Dear @hitest

Thanks for your advice. But, see, I really don't care
about doing a smart move. I am unable to do business
with shepherds or sheep. It's against my nature.

#rm -rf *eloi*

unSpawn 08-24-2012 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4762830)
So you consider OT all that put in evidence the forum interface bad code.

No, we generally consider excursions that do not contribute to, distract from or otherwise derail the main topic as off-topic. This should be obvious from the fact that about 60 per cent of your last posts were moved to this thread. Apart from my warning I hope the fact that only 30 per cent of your last posts remained in the original thread serves as impulse for you to question if you should continue to post in an off-topic thread. I suggest you use your web log instead and to facilitate that I'm closing this thread which no longer serves any true purpose anyway.


Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4762830)
Please, yesterday I've unchecked in my user preferences the option to receive your messages in my email, but I've received them anyway, could you please fix that bug too?

Receiving email from me means it is about the relationship between you and the LQ Community. And you should choose not to shirk addressing that responsibility.


Quote:

Originally Posted by eloi (Post 4762830)
What you've said about pentadactyl is insulting and ignorant is somebody here to moderate you?

Not exactly "moderate" but yes, Jeremy rulez. It shouldn't detract from you addressing the main issue though.


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