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-   *BSD (https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/%2Absd-17/)
-   -   Will BSD keep X11 in the future? (https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/%2Absd-17/will-bsd-keep-x11-in-the-future-4175605396/)

Xeratul 07-28-2017 07:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luridis (Post 5740995)
No, because the X developers are depreciating it. They understand it and why this is necessary.

Now, what I find funny is that anyone who would threaten to fork and keep it alive is doomed to fail. Why? Because it's difficult and few people understand X's inner workings as-is. What is funny is that the minute they begin to understand how to maintain it, they'll see exactly why it needs to be replaced. As for the BSD developers... They're better than most and I suspect it wouldn't take them long to estimate that it is better to leave sleeping dogs lie in the case of X11. Certainly, none of their business clients are interested in at as the Tzien developer so eloquently pointed out in the video I linked.
So, then, what's your feeling or best guess then? Clearer, how many years will BSD keep X11 still?

Luridis 07-28-2017 08:06 AM
Depends on how long it takes for the Wayland ecosystem to develop. It's slow because things work differently. Qt & Gtk are well underway to tooling support for it. But, there is another angle to this, the back-end is changing too, and also for good reasons.
Code:
Current: Kernel Interface -> OpenGL -> Mesa -> X11 -> Widgets -> Desktop
Future : Kernel Interface -> Vulkan -> Mesa -> Wayland -> Widgets -> Desktop
                                                        \ XWayland -> Old Apps
But Vulkan is also well underway. Game developers for one, are very excited about it. It removes all that unnecessary code in GL that is not needed in a GPU world. OpenGL was not designed for modern hardware interfaces and it just adds extra steps to getting instructions from application to the GPGPUs.

If we don't get all this done within a decade we'll find ourselves in a quagmire of jury-rigged APIs.

Luridis 07-28-2017 08:20 AM
Here Xeratul, I dug this up just for you. Proof that Motif apps can still run in a Wayland world without running X11 as the primary display server.

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/it...d-1619051.html

(Note: I've done this myself under Weston. X apps run fine, better if you count the fact that they no longer tear and accordion.)

Xeratul 07-28-2017 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luridis (Post 5741015)
Here Xeratul, I dug this up just for you. Proof that Motif apps can still run in a Wayland world without running X11 as the primary display server.

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/it...d-1619051.html

(Note: I've done this myself under Weston. X apps run fine, better if you count the fact that they no longer tear and accordion.)
I don't believe all X11 software on X/Intrinsic will die.
Wayland says that they wont support X11 long, just a early beginning. And then you have a serious issue houston.

cynwulf 07-30-2017 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luridis (Post 5740977)
Is the subject going to change to that controversial program? I'd like to know so I can unsubscribe the thread if that's the case.
No, this is the *BSD section, we generally don't discuss Linux here.

Xeratul 07-30-2017 02:00 PM
We just talk about BSD and its future.

Hopefully libX11-dev will be always there, despite XWayland will take over ...

Luridis 07-30-2017 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeratul (Post 5741821)
We just talk about BSD and its future.

Hopefully libX11-dev will be always there, despite XWayland will take over ...
I'm sure some incarnation of it will be... After all, there are still cars around that use leaded gasoline. Later, people realized this was a poor design, in spite of the fact that it worked fine. Thankfully, DC-to-the-house didn't have hangers-on "because it works". But, that's what happens when being functional is all that is required to consider something designed well. As they say, a low bar is always socially acceptable.

Xeratul 07-31-2017 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luridis (Post 5741867)
I'm sure some incarnation of it will be... After all, there are still cars around that use leaded gasoline. ...

Do you think that this code will always be there and working on FreeBSD ???
Openmotif-Simple-Example-Card
Programming is good and helpful, and I like that something readily works.
I am kinda sure that in 5-10 years, this library Motif/Intrinsic/X11 will not be so much maintained or no longer. This is terrible with graphics. All go to waste. Even Unix X11 MIT historical library can die forever anytime.

Libs for programming:
Graphic: trust no one.
Term: just trust termcap and ncurses.
Base: just trust few base only: stdio,string,stdlib,...

Luridis 07-31-2017 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeratul (Post 5741989)
Do you think that this code will always be there and working on FreeBSD ???
Openmotif-Simple-Example-Card
Programming is good and helpful, and I like that something readily works.
I am kinda sure that in 5-10 years, this library Motif/Intrinsic/X11 will not be so much maintained or no longer. This is terrible with graphics. All go to waste. Even Unix X11 MIT historical library can die forever anytime.

Libs for programming:
Graphic: trust no one.
Term: just trust termcap and ncurses.
Base: just trust few base only: stdio,string,stdlib,...
Hey, I had a screen that looked like that at one time. Unfortunately, my Commodore 64 is long dead.

Xeratul 07-31-2017 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luridis (Post 5742005)
Hey, I had a screen that looked like that at one time. Unfortunately, my Commodore 64 is long dead.
Motif looks like original Unix systems. Maybe you already see a SUN station Unix with Motif?

Do you think that Blackbox will be maintained and ported to XWayland or Wayland when it replaces X11?

cynwulf 08-01-2017 04:35 AM
Blackbox last released 11 years ago.

Fluxbox, it's descendant, last released two years ago, but has seen little development in recent times because it's pretty much "finished" (unless someone decides to restart development and go full on "dancing baloney").

This software can survive as FreeBSD ports, providing someone is willing to step up and maintain it.

Xeratul 08-01-2017 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf (Post 5742544)
Blackbox last released 11 years ago.

Fluxbox, it's descendant, last released two years ago, but has seen little development in recent times because it's pretty much "finished" (unless someone decides to restart development and go full on "dancing baloney").

This software can survive as FreeBSD ports, providing someone is willing to step up and maintain it.
What to do then, if one would like to keep UNIX original software??
They'll die, but users still want them.

jggimi 08-01-2017 05:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf (Post 5742544)
... last released ...
I thought it would be interesting to see when the last development patches had been committed. Blackbox - 9 years. Fluxbox - 5 months. :)

Xeratul 08-01-2017 05:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jggimi (Post 5742566)
I thought it would be interesting to see when the last development patches had been committed. Blackbox - 9 years. Fluxbox - 5 months. :)
Same of Motif. Who really care about origin of Unix / non-gui terminal ...? Not many people.

Usuually, everyone prefer nice and shinning graphical applications.
Ex: https://www.slideshare.net/ICSinc/po...binar-76777857

jggimi 08-01-2017 05:56 AM
Motif is different, because there is commercial support (ICS) tied to this OSS project. A quick look shows that the project last had a release in March of 2017 (2.3.7) on sf.net but ICS -- who operate the official project website -- is marketing version 2.3.4.


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