Wayland - 10 years of development.
In my opinion this seems to me a sign. 10 years! Wayland can be evil as was SystemD. Why? Because of an Unix programme shall be: - small, - compact, and efficient. Memory usage is important, efficiency, small code rules. |
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I have a fairly pragmatic view - let all the cutting edge fanboi Linux distributions and Red Hat run with wayland first in production and we can see how it all pans out. For the majority of OpenBSD, NetBSD and FreeBSD users, there's no real urgency to jump on that particular bandwagon. Quote:
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For me the funny thing is that early in this thread you threatened to "unsubscribe" if systemd was discussed, yet you've been happy enough to trash, what is at the very least, tried and tested software, if nothing else, which has served us for decades and made "desktop Linux" a reality. It hasn't cost "us" a thing either. Despite criticisng others for not coming up with the code/answers, you've not explained how and who could have sorted out the X mess "20 years ago" and what should have been done and most importantly who would have paid for it all? Quote:
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So far so good, different points with moderation.
I am glad that people have different points of view about X11, which makes this thread mega rich. Moderation as always. Happy that verve and motivation in UNIX still drive all of us among our UNIX community. |
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As for changing the libraries in 10 to 20 years, that's longer than most software even lives--I tried to compile a text editor (Linux clone of MS-DOS EDIT with advanced features) and it depended on a toolchain with programs that themselves won't even compile on Xubuntu 17.04. The program just wasn't going to work, and it was only around eight years since its last update. And quite often, changing the libraries of your software allows you to make your software better--I do testing for the ECWolf source port of Wolfenstein 3D, and the move from SDL to SDL2 brought a lot of performance improvements and some entirely new features. Expecting people to stick with X11 or even the console because "Graphical applications are so unreliable to make and maintain" is silly. This is not 1983, my computer is not a PDP-11, GNU/Linux is not System V UNIX, and I am not using TWM or whatever garbage desktop existed at the time. Computers change, and software with them. FreeBSD is conservative compared to most Linux distros, so they'll probably keep X11 around long after Ubuntu, Mint, Arch, etc. have all gone to Wayland (even Ubuntu, because Canonical gave up on Mir). But eventually they'll change too, either to Wayland or their own solution. That's life. |
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X11 is not ls, grep, awk or sed. These things are mostly simple and still useful today. X11 however, is a Leviathan of over-complicated code not designed for modern hardware. And yet, some people will not allow themselves to see. And, those same people will continue to spout nonsense anywhere between developer philosophy to corporate conspiracies in an attempt to justify the ongoing maintenance of this long decrepit code base. |
Since we're talking about old desktop/GUI stuff, what was using Motif really like, from people who were using *nix back when Motif was the standard? I kind of like the look of Motif from screenshots and I use Motif-style themes for GTK and Xfwm, but the 30 minutes or so of experience I had with CDE after compiling it was pretty unpleasant (especially with it being incompatible with icons, fonts, and basically everything related to a modern desktop environment, the nearly incomprehensible menus, and it throwing a fit if I tried to log into a CDE session through LightDM). Eric S. Raymond says it was terrible, and I have little reason to doubt him.
Even if "I_like_the_appearance_of_30-year-old_GUI's" (h/t Luridis, you're the best poster in this thread), I just like my GUI to look on the surface like an old GUI and use a traditional workflow, I don't want the actual UI itself to be a shambling mess of legacy code and hasty jury-rigged fixes. I kind of wish Microsoft would give Windows users back the Classic theme, but I don't want them to give us back "a fatal exception 0e has occurred at...". Motif is for 99.9% of users stone dead, X will die, but the look can just be wallpapered over a new technology with a theme. And maybe if the new technology isn't a raging garbage fire like GTK+ the theme will actually be consistent between applications! |
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