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-   -   Will BSD keep X11 in the future? (https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/%2Absd-17/will-bsd-keep-x11-in-the-future-4175605396/)

Xeratul 05-06-2017 02:47 PM

Will BSD keep X11 in the future?
 
Hello,

X11 is to me really important. I like to have a system that allows to modify and to custom to our needs.

However, if developers change all the time their libraries, it starts to be seriously annoying to work and to use Linux.

Is BSD cleaner and the ultimate solution to run X11/Nix*/Unix?

jggimi 05-06-2017 03:24 PM

There is no single "BSD" development project. However many people conflate FreeBSD with "BSD" merely because it is the largest of the currently active operating system projects. You might be one of those who assume FreeBSD = BSD.

The four main active development projects -- DragonflyBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD -- are all separate projects with separate staff, seperate goals, separate strategies, and separate direction. These systems have diverged over many decades, though all are based upon one of the releases of original Berkeley Software Distribution, or are forks of each other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkel...e_Distribution

Xeratul 05-06-2017 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jggimi (Post 5707121)
There is no single "BSD" development project. However many people conflate FreeBSD with "BSD" merely because it is the largest of the currently active operating system projects. You might be one of those who assume FreeBSD = BSD.

The four main active development projects -- DragonflyBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD -- are all separate projects with separate staff, seperate goals, separate strategies, and separate direction. These systems have diverged over many decades, though all are based upon one of the releases of original Berkeley Software Distribution, or are forks of each other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkel...e_Distribution


BSD meant of course openbsd, freebsd,...

jggimi 05-06-2017 04:14 PM

Disclaimer: I gathered this information via the Internet, via Google, in about 10 minutes. An experimental Wayland or Weston development noted or available for testing does not mean that the individual project has stated any direction to remove or supplant their X11 software. For more information on strategy or direction, please refer to to the individual projects.

DragonflyBSD
  • Latest release: 4.8.
  • X11: third party (dport or package) X.Org 7.7
  • Other direction:Wayland, experimental
FreeBSD
  • Latest release: 11.0.
  • X11: third party (port or package) X.Org 7.7
  • Other direction:Wayland / Weston, experimental
NetBSD
  • Latest release: 7.1.
  • X11: integrated X.Org or XFree86, or third party (pkgsrc) modular X.Org
  • Other direction:Wayland, experimental
OpenBSD
  • Latest release: 6.1.
  • X11: integrated X.Org 7.7
  • Other direction:Wayland, experimental

Laserbeak 05-06-2017 05:59 PM

If it doesn't include it on the basic install disc, you can always add it in a package.

In fact, the main Solaris installer disc doesn't come with X11/Gnome. You have to type
Code:

pkg install solaris-desktop

jggimi 05-07-2017 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laserbeak (Post 5707175)
...you can always add it in a package.

This wasn't the question that was asked, though this was noted in my reply above as "third party." FreeBSD and DragonflyBSD treat X11 as an add-on, OpenBSD integrates it, while NetBSD users have a deployment type which depends primarily on platform architecture.

cynwulf 05-08-2017 06:52 AM

I don't see X11 disappearing any time soon. Wayland is something designed by X11 developers, but is ultimately freedesktop.org stuff and thus "Linux driven" and dependent on Linux DRM/KMS drivers. It's in early development and while the Red Hats of this world may jump onboard sooner than most, it's not yet a given that it will eventually completely replace X11.

Xeratul 05-08-2017 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynwulf (Post 5707725)
I don't see X11 disappearing any time soon. Wayland is something designed by X11 developers, but is ultimately freedesktop.org stuff and thus "Linux driven" and dependent on Linux DRM/KMS drivers. It's in early development and while the Red Hats of this world may jump onboard sooner than most, it's not yet a given that it will eventually completely replace X11.

I hope that you are right...

It would be terrible to start about 20-30 years again development for make again WMs. All X11 applications would be completely waste... 20-30 years of waste of time.

cynwulf 05-09-2017 02:44 AM

Well like it or not, simpler compositors seem to be lined up to replace the whole X11 kitchen sink and window managers. This is the kind of thing which other platforms had since the 1990s. I don't exactly look forward to it nor dread it, I find myself indifferent. If we get more responsive desktops, cleaner code and better security, it has to be better right?

Xeratul 05-09-2017 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynwulf (Post 5708098)
Well like it or not, simpler compositors seem to be lined up to replace the whole X11 kitchen sink and window managers. This is the kind of thing which other platforms had since the 1990s. I don't exactly look forward to it nor dread it, I find myself indifferent. If we get more responsive desktops, cleaner code and better security, it has to be better right?

Bigger complex codes that are heavy are the destination which is going Linux. You will have some day no choice, since most distros take modern things / graphical compositor codes.

Soon or later, you will have to move to BSD... you won't have any choice. This is happening already with SYSTEMD.

cynwulf 05-09-2017 07:28 AM

No, on the contrary, it doesn't come much heavier or complex than X11.

I would say that there's always a choice. Slackware Linux does not use systemd as is the case with some others and Gentoo Linux and Linux From Scratch gives the option to build without it. Red Hat and Debian would seem to be the wrong way to go if you want to avoid systemd.

Linux went maintstream and some people don't like the result. gnome, KDE, et al and all the underlying automagic, messagebus and *kit stuff has existed for years, but there were few complaints or references to "UNIX philosophy" from end users. It's all inevitable really while you have much of these projects being corporate funded/controlled, rather than in the hands of hobbyists/academics.

Xeratul 05-09-2017 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynwulf (Post 5708154)
No, on the contrary, it doesn't come much heavier or complex than X11.

I would say that there's always a choice. Slackware Linux does not use systemd as is the case with some others and Gentoo Linux and Linux From Scratch gives the option to build without it. Red Hat and Debian would seem to be the wrong way to go if you want to avoid systemd.

Linux went maintstream and some people don't like the result. gnome, KDE, et al and all the underlying automagic, messagebus and *kit stuff has existed for years, but there were few complaints or references to "UNIX philosophy" from end users. It's all inevitable really while you have much of these projects being corporate funded/controlled, rather than in the hands of hobbyists/academics.

LINUX is made for everyone.

People who come from MS Windows, willing for change, will install KDE or GNOME.
People who do some research will install TWM, CTWM, GNUPLOT, and LATEX/XETEX/ whatever TEX and their bibtex, for serious stuffs.
People, who are learning programming will install Java, Python, Mono,... believing that C/C++ is a loss of time.
and people, who are responsible of famous Linux distributions, will bring Systemd, Pulseaudio, heavy libraries, and remove for fun, all the working part of Linux for modern unstable, most unwanted, programmes.

Life of Linux, Everything's possible ;) :)

cynwulf 05-10-2017 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeratul (Post 5708301)
People who come from MS Windows, willing for change, will install KDE or GNOME.

Maybe, not sure what your point is...?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeratul (Post 5708301)
People who do some research will install TWM, CTWM, GNUPLOT, and LATEX/XETEX/ whatever TEX and their bibtex, for serious stuffs.

It's more likely that people will install whatever they want to install.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeratul (Post 5708301)
People, who are learning programming will install Java, Python, Mono,... believing that C/C++ is a loss of time.

Disclaimer I am not a programmer, the days when I dabbled in C are long gone (the MS-DOS days):

The language you learn and use depends on what you want to do. e.g. if you want to hack device drivers, then you need to learn C. But if you're writing some other application, then other languages and toolkits are what you want. Ideally you want to be linking to exiting code, rather than reinventing the wheel. This is how modular systems are put together and how the free software eco system "works".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeratul (Post 5708301)
and people, who are responsible of famous Linux distributions, will bring Systemd, Pulseaudio, heavy libraries, and remove for fun, all the working part of Linux for modern unstable, most unwanted, programmes.

You perhaps misunderstand what "Linux distributions" are. If you are not one of the developers, involved in the project or donating money, then you don't have a say. If you don't like what a distribution is doing, you don't use it.

orbea 05-10-2017 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynwulf (Post 5708532)
You perhaps misunderstand what "Linux distributions" are. If you are not one of the developers, involved in the project or donating money, then you don't have a say. If you don't like what a distribution is doing, you don't use it.

I just want to point this out as the entirely backwards thinking that plagues certain controversial software projects. A distro and the software that its composed of is nothing without its community, if there are no users then there will likewise be no one reporting issues, solving them or otherwise maintaining it.

cynwulf 05-11-2017 09:41 AM

I think all projects welcome users and bug reports - that's a given. But software development projects are generally not democracies (or anarchy) where anyone can suggest anything (and then let someone else do all the work implementing that).

Your Linux distribution, Slackware, for example is a benevolent dictatorship. You get to use Patrick Volkerding's personal Linux distro, designed according to PV's personal tastes - for free. Slackware is entirely financed by sales, via the Slackware store or any donations. You can buy merchandise or not and you can use it freely. What you don't really have is a say. You can suggest something, it might be considered, but when all is said and done - the man decides.


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