Why living in North-America better than in Europe?
 

Hi Guys,

To many, the American Dream is the idea that it's possible for Americans to secure a better material life for themselves through hard work. However, in the words of historian James Truslow Adams, "... it is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable..." The American Dream is much more than a house, two children, and a car in the garage. It's also the idea that Americans can strive for a life of proud individualism, recognition, and personal liberty.

American society (except cops) is well structured, you get a job easily if you work hard, people are much more friendly and open than in EU, and so on.

What your point of view?

Which of the two are you posting from, Xeratul?

I believe that one shall live a while in EU and US to get a better point of view.

I've not lived in the US, though I have visited, talked to many Americans and obviously see a lot about the states in the media. I've very temporarily lived in another European country and I've visited a few more. On balance, personally, I would rather live in Europe (though not the UK where I currently do) but I really don't think one is "better" than the other -- they're just different.
The places I would like to live are Scandinavia, due to high standard of living and general cleanliness and friendliness, and The Netherlands due to a liberal attitude a climate I could enjoy (I'm from the North of England so I'm not built for hot, dry, places) and being well placed to visit the rest of Western Europe.

Grew up in U.S. Now live in Central America (Nicaragua). More freedom here.

Well somebody's got to be ;)

Indeed! Who would eat all the pies otherwise? ;)

Ha Ha that's where they all went!

It varies. Lots of different states in the USA, lots of different countries in Europe and they are all different.

As a general tendency, yes, better and higher paying jobs in the USA. There is also a greater openness and job mobility in the USA compared to the EU. Things in the EU tend to be more restrictive, people are told where to live in some countries. In many countries there is also paralyzing bureaucracy in Europe, much more so than in the USA.

Red Headed girls with freckles that have a southern drawl.

That is my take and I am sticking to it.

They should have put English subtitles on it ;).

When I lived in Japan a guy I met from Belgium said he had to pay 80% of his pay in tax. Thought he was kidding.

Shame that people are so down on cops. We do need them and they need both better pay, better people, better training and better community support.

I prefer to live in Texas. I've lived in many other parts of the world and US. I think there is a good mix of freedom and restrictions. My self build home sits on 25 acres looking over a valley running on nothing but rainwater and electricity. Although I did build it to national codes and better, I couldn't have built it in the near nut case city. If I had known when I built it that I didn't need a license to build a septic system, I wouldn't have paid that money either.

Sadly my opinion of the US is that there are too many crooks. EU is finding out the hard way that letting huge numbers if immigrants in results in a very unpleasant side effect of crime, violence and tax upon the welfare state.

Far as I'm aware that could be literally true but it's phrased to suggest that income tax is around 80% which it is most certainly not. He was most likely referring to things like fuel duty and VAT, in their compound state, leading to the price of an awful lot of things being mainly tax.
It's not everybody's cup of tea I'm sure but, for example, I'm reliably informed that crime is almost non-existent in Bruges (without the need for weaponry ;) ) and the standard of life is so high that contentment rules.
I'm prone to Libertarian or even anarcho-capitalist thoughts myself but if you visit the highly-taxed European areas you'll find there's no lack of wealth and they're generally very safe.

I think this is highly subjective and probably just wrong. There are many, perhaps even the majority of immigrants in the US that decided to come here, often at considerable risk and even peril, exactly to make a better life for themselves. It is nearly a cliche that many immigrants will house numerous families in a single family dwelling and work two jobs and go to school just to get ahead. If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious how many Americans complain about immigrants "stealing their jobs" when generally the jobs they "steal" are ones that are apparently beneath the "dignity" of those very same complainers. Crime, violence and welfare are largely the result of minimized options to improve oneself and family and such prejudice creating such repression only serves as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

What you said is not very nice against other immigrants.

Several studies have shown several times the strong relation between education and integration in the society. If the government do not do anything to educate people or offer continuing education or trainings, or even coaching, then, who is really gilty?

In NL, they offer some fitness for free to the population even.

Taking the univ. ranking, the highest level of education is in UK, Belgium, NL, US,...

"Education
is The Most
Powerful
Weapon
Which You
Can Use To
Change The
World"
N. Mandela

I live in Germany and I can assure you that this is simply not true. I can safely walk at night in any larger city here without the fear of being mugged or something similar, without having to carry a weapon. Violent crimes per capita are far less here then in the US, we have universal healthcare and education is available to everyone. Of course this results in higher taxes, but nothing as high as 80% income tax. In my job I have to pay about 28% of my income for taxes, healthcare and unemployment insurance altogether, and as a single without kids I am in the highest tax category. VAT is 7% for food and other essential stuff and 19% for other articles, I can live with that.

Hi Tobi, how are you going?

In Belgium, Netherlands and Germany you can definitely (almost) safely walk at night. In France, for instance, you may get serious troubles. Try Marseilles at night. In Bruxelles (Belgium) it is not that safe at night, as you may know.

In US, it is the same story. In US it depends mostly what is the concerned city. There are many cities in US which are completely safe.

Anyhow big cities are less safe. I don't know the origin or what could be a solution to improve this. What can a city mayor actually do?

Greetings
Pat

Living on the Mexican Border. I can understand Jefro even though other members don't.

But I am more of a outdoors-man also instead of a desk jockey.
What jefro said is a fact of life. No matter where, what, ethnics, are involved.

I am not going to take sides one way or the other as my gypsy lifestyle allows me to do what I want, where I want, when I want.
Being a little Bi-Lingual and large and scary looking.

Education, and other factors. Don't change peoples attitudes. Small mildnesses is not cured by a PHD.
There are good and bad in all social strata. Everywhere on this planet.

And Germany is not exempt either. Or do I need to post links to European Anti Immigrant Party sites and attacks on Immigrant refugee centers to make my point?

Yeah, it sucks being discriminated against because of "fear of the stranger dna cells". Everyone has this.

So Jefro spoke what was on his mind. I commend him for this. I do not judge or call him mistaken. Because there is a grain of truth
in his post. If you are honest and lived like I do. One of the few white dudes in a area of indian/spanish settlements.
You'd realize this.

I agree

Solution: dismantle the welfare state. Problem solved. The solution is not to disallow immigration. That's niggardly and just plain wrong.


but remember

I'm American and I live in Europe. I like both places just fine though when I retire it'll be here in Europe. My work apartment is in a suburb of Stuttgart I don't feel unsafe here or in the city itself. As far as upward mobility is concerned the US isn't as high as some European nations so I'll call that a toss and wash.

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

This sort of logical-fallacy is called begging the question. The question is framed in such a way that it "assumes the antecedent," e.g. that "living in North America is better than living in Europe," such that it opens with: "Why...?"

In other words, troll-bait.

We live on a very big orbiting-rock, with lots of nations in it, all created by people with different cultures, histories, backgrounds, prejudices, and points-of-view. Thus, every nation is, in its own way, just as diverse, varied, and interesting as the place-on-Earth that they occupy. Vive la difference!

So which of the two are you posting from, Xeratul?

Being a redhead lover, I agree.

Never even visited Europe. But been around the US in various places. I think negativity is where you look for it. I try to be a positive person, but do realize it's tough if the entire local society around you is negative.

For me, when I've been stuck with a negative crowd, mainly work. I find a new job. Bad neighbors, move. Yes, these are not always possible, but one can change things slowly if they have some tolerance.

As far as the police. I've not been involved with bad situations. Anytime I've done something wrong, such as speeding, well ... it's been my fault and I can hardly fault an officer for giving me a citation if that were to be the case. I do know police officers, they're not jerks, they're not stupid, they just work a job like many of us do. At least those that I know are trying to do what they're supposed to do, which is keep the public safe.

I understand it too.
I don't want to be drawn into a discussion about immigration and the like but I think we can all agree that immigration is complex and there are good and bad consequences? If somebody wants to create an immigration mega-thread I may post but I think it would side-track the already premise of this thread to talk about it here.
I am interested in where Xeratul posts from though I do understand that people like online privacy. So, I suppose, I would like to hear about any experience of Europe or the US.

I ought also to point out that I do, sometimes, type things like "Stupid 'mirkins'" and other anti-USian things. I do so knowing that we're all "big boys" and with the implication I know that nobody is a stereotype.

What do you say about these news sources? Are they false???

"Germany struggles to adapt to immigrant influx"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29686248

"Illegal immigration to Germany at record high - increase of 75 per cent in one year"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-one-year.html

On the one hand, maybe it's a flattering thing if lots of other people want to be in your country. But then again, (almost) every country has some kind of "immigration problem."

"The grass is always greener on the other side of the border."

Anyhow: "See the planet." Just as much of it as you get the opportunity to see.

Not they are not false. As in every other country we also have those people that are opposed to everything foreign, but those people are a minority. The large majority of Germans do not have any problems with immigrants and the protests of loud minority are every time outnumbered (sometimes by more than the order of two magnitudes) by counter-protests. Slashing the welfare state will not help with reducing numbers of illegal immigrants, people fleeing a civil war won't care about that, it is making the living conditions better at the places where those people come from that will help.

It's a pity that we're all still stuck on this planet - Kubrick estimated in the 60' that we would have reached Jupiter ~15 years ago.
:(

[Offtopic]

I think that what's really a shame is that we (or rather, the unsustainable economic system societies across the world have adopted and/or have been imposed) are destroying this planet -- the only planet we have so far. Why looking for water in Mars or in planets thousands light-years away from here if we cannot even assure having clean water and food for everybody on this planet? It's crazy.

I'm not against space exploration if it can ever become a reality (in fact, space and space exploration are subjects that have always excited me), but our civilization seriously needs to find a way to solve the problems that we are currently facing on this planet due to the way we relate to it. Otherwise we can destroy every type of life here, including ourselves.

[/Offtopic]

Thanks for putting it into such succint words.

We're still struggling with the consequences of WWII - many thanks to those who drew all those straight lines across Africa & Co.

My complaint about illegal immigration is this. People sneak in because they know someone will hire them. The so called jobs are ones that may not pay the proper amount, offer protections or insurances. These illegals are making small businesses richer because the owners don't pay the proper amounts. The illegals now have full benefit of social services. It boils down to crooked business owners taking advantage of workers to line their pockets. If the government fined the heck out of these businesses, we'd get them paying the proper scales and work conditions. Of course nothing ever works out as planned.

My goal would be to train native born more fully and more freely. Universities here in Texas a fantastically rich. Centuries of oil and donations have left them where they shouldn't need to charge admission. The pay scales of the university if out of line with their net worth to the country. Why pay a professor a million dollars a year or football coaches 5 million?? Just dopey.

I was considering retiring to other countries for maybe a few years. Many want $250,000 at least to let a legal visitor reside there. Sheeze, I'll just jump ship and live like the illegals do till I get caught. Then let them fly me home.

Let's start a new thread, "Why living on Earth is better than on Jupiter"

Less intense hurricanes.

Call me crazy, but I like breathing oxygen.

Then you should do that to all businesses, not only those that employ illegal immigrants. Just have a look at Walmart and how many of their employees are using welfare programs because they are paid so less money that they can't make a living. Meanwhile, at least in red states in your country, republican politicians are slashing welfare (even going as far as wanting to prevent food stamp recipients from buying potatoes, go figure) while giving tax breaks to their rich donors.

He's not kidding. There are many other taxes than the income tax, such as the VAT (25% in Sweden).

Individualism is good in the right amount, but I wouldn't want to live in the USA. Too much individualism. It needs to be lagom. Too much individualism and you will have widespread poverty and homeless people everywhere due to a lack of social safety nets. Too little individualism and you will have Bolshevism with communists hanging over your shoulder.

That's a complaint about businesses violating labor (particularly minimum wage) laws and getting away with it, not a complaint about illegal immigration.

And "fined"? A business that makes violating the law an intrinsic part of its operations should lose its license to operate.

Am old enough to remember (in the U.S. at least) when the social safety net was provided by family, friends, neighbors, and religious groups, and not by federal programs. To try to achieve balance (lagom ??) between individualism and socialism is illusory; both sides are dehumanizing. What I'm saying is, before the socialistic Great Society federal programs, people helped people, not the feds. The problem of illegal immigration ceases to be divisive if the only help they will receive is voluntary and interpersonal.

How old are you? You'd need to be 90+ to remember when the social safety nets were created (welfare and SS) being that they were created in 1935 by FDR.

Yes, the mentality started with FDR's New Deal, and that indeed proved to be the camel's nose under the tent. But SS was proposed and implemented not as an entitlement giveaway but as a savings plan, the taxpayer's own money coming back to him. Other programs were relatively small. I personally never knew anyone who received a monthly welfare check until I was in my 20's. I stand by my assessment that 60 years ago, people helped people, and government programs were largely a non-factor. LBJ's Great Society opened the floodgates, and I have personally met many many people in the subsequent years whose families and communities have been ruined by the dependency and institutionalization of poverty resulting from the federal welfare programs of the 70's and beyond.

Empires are built using cheap labor. If an immigrant "steals" your job, it's because they can do more for less, so it is your fault not theirs, you can't compete, and competition is American.

I assumed you were a boomer you guys do tend to think the world revolves around and everything important happened between 1960 and 1980.

Yeah but to be fair, which generation has that not been said about?

A neat way of dispensing with a logical point that you can't really refute. It's called 'ad hominem'.

Just for the record, I also believe that the migration of Europeans to the Americas, the Enlightenment, the conversion of Constantine, and the coming of Christ were major cultural game changers, and I wasn't personally present for any of those events.

Do you remember them also then?
For the record I'm ambivalent about welfare state or, at least, it's implementation but to claim to be old enough to remember when the support it gives was provided by family and friends is hogwash.
I can't think of a single western country within the last couple of centuries where the poor were fed, clothed and educated without being treated as possessions of the rich all through simple charity from friends and relatives. I'll admit though that I'm not that well-read politically so if you have examples I would be very happy to hear them (very happy indeed as I would love it to be true).

"Then you should do that to all businesses, not only those that employ illegal immigrants"

Nothing is simple. Walmart and other big companies can do this because of more than simply they want to. They know that smaller businesses are not paying the correct amount so they don't have to. To be correct, even big companies have been hit with fines for hiring illegal workers. Walmart is no exception. Workers have a choice in some places, they can form unions but it is getting harder. I generally don't care for government but they should protect boarders.


No, a complaint about workers sneaking in and getting free social services is a complaint. They come here (mostly) because they know they can get hired. The word here is "just get a Mexican to do it." The middle class ends up paying for this. (that means I am paying for both businesses and illegals)

No country is immune to social issues. Personally my area is quite safe. There was a killing in a bar 20 years ago (ruled self defense.) I don't drink so that would limit my exposure to this. I can run around my neighborhood any time of the day or night. I worry more about critters than any crime so I always take a stick or more.

Everyone seems to get a wrong impression of the US I think. They hear tales of crime and murder but it tends to be in very specific areas. In those areas it is quite dangerous. In other areas it is quite the opposite.

My very point. Contrary to Germany_chris's ad hominem dismissal, I do not believe the 60's and 70's were the only times of cultural upheaval.

I can. My lived experience prior to the 60's, with this caveat: in addition to family and friends, add voluntary organizations such as churches.

Only more lived experiences: I remember my parents turning to a rich(er) uncle when financial help was needed. I remember also them pitching in when a different relative was in straits. I remember neighbors helping neighbors (rural MN) when there was a death or serious illness. None of these memories involved social workers or government services.

As a young man when LBJ's programs were just starting (and I still had a very positive attitude toward them), I visited a poor area in the Ozarks and was surprised to hear a negative attitude from an old hillbilly. His fear was that with this 'War on Poverty', folks would leave off helping other folks as was his own lived experience, because they would figure "I don't have to help; the government will take care of it." I now see his fear as prophetic.

Still later, living in inner-city Chicago, I was again surprised to hear a bright young Africa-American man complain that, in his lived experience in the ghetto, people (mostly intact families at that time) were helping one another and were, together, working their way up. In his words, "We were winning the war on poverty until LBJ waged a war on poverty."

Still later, living in a mixed neighborhood in the small city of Duluth MN, a neighbor (a welfare recipient) was engaged in a drinking bout and her 3 small children were suffering. As soon as we saw what was happening, my wife and I, together with the paternal grandparents of two of the children, who also lived in Duluth, were already taking care of the children and holding Cathy's feet to the fire to get some help through AA or other means and get her life back in order, and she was responding to our tough love in a very encouraging manner and everything looked hopeful. But then Social Services heard about the 'case' and forcibly took over, separating the children, sending the youngest to a home 250 miles away, and subjecting Cathy to a dehumanizing and emotionally traumatizing 'program', all the more taxing because she was not allowed to even see her children whom she loved, and we were not allowed to help in any meaningful way. The upshot was that Cathy grew more and more despondent and even suicidal, eventually despaired and ran off to another part of the country and was never heard from again. The children were, as far as I know, never reuinited, and the middle child (with whom I had been very close, almost like an informal adoptive Son-Dad relationship) eventually turned to a life of crime and delinquency. I don't know what happened to the other two.

I'll spare you further examples.

No you were wrong about you point and the rest was white noise and goal shifting. You've never lived in an America without wefare.