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-   Linux - General (https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-general-1/)
-   -   Are you for or against systemd? (https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-general-1/are-you-for-or-against-systemd-4175603950/)

Emerson 04-17-2017 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeratul (Post 5698064)
People bare it and even better keep installing it, right?

Many many Ubuntu users are there (with Systemd).
Brrr ... mental capacity of an average systemd propagandist is frightening indeed.

This sounds like Ubuntu users have to make an extra step after installing Ubuntu, by removing another init system to install systemd. Whether in fact they simply do not have a choice.

Useless, pointless thread. Splitting.

hydrurga 04-17-2017 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerson (Post 5698077)
Brrr ... mental capacity of an average systemd propagandist is frightening indeed.
Not only an ad hominem attack, but also arguing that someone who talks in favour of systemd is automatically a "propagandist". Not very cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerson (Post 5698077)
Useless, pointless thread.
Agreed. The LQ equivalent of putting the cat among the pigeons. But then again, some people are perhaps new to Linux and unaware of the bitter polemic that the development of systemd has created.

rokytnji 04-17-2017 10:13 AM
Everybody likes Trump. So must be a good thing.

Quote:
Great logic. If something is widespread then it is a good thing. Like plague in middle ages.
Logic like that <Xaratul> also makes me thirsty. But too early for beer. So more Bustelo for me.

My vote in the poll was don't like it. So I run something else.

Code:
Init: SysVinit runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 4.9.2

jsbjsb001 04-17-2017 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmac (Post 5698015)
If it were just another init system, there would have been no outcry, but it is not, it is being integrated into other programs, causing a lot of bother to people who like 'freedom', whether you are for it or not, you can see that for your self.

Personally, I like the unix way of doing things, & will continue to support those who continue along this line. :)
This is one of the dislikes of systemd that I was suspecting and has answered one of my initial questions, about systemd. Good answer - but I still have no opinion ether in favor or otherwise. But thank you again for your answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrurga (Post 5698079)
Agreed. The LQ equivalent of putting the cat among the pigeons. But then again, some people are perhaps new to Linux and unaware of the bitter polemic that the development of systemd has created.
I was (and am) honesty (as DavidMcCann said in post #4) trying find out how people's opinion's of systemd, have "ended up" (as DavidMcCann puts it).

And also can you expand on your answer, as your insights are always very interesting to me. ;)

DavidMcCann 04-17-2017 11:06 AM
My own position is

1. I trust the developers of the various distros that use systemd to know what they're doing. They can't all be wrong. The fact that they are developers says something: they obviously know more than I, considering my failure with LFS!

2. It may be difficult to learn, but why should I learn it, any more than I've learned all the ins and outs of System V init? In nearly 20 years, I've only had to reconfigure that twice, and I was able to find instructions on the web. I dare say that I'll have a similar experience when I get round to running a systemd distro.

Philip Lacroix 04-17-2017 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerson (Post 5698058)
Wow, that says a lot. Thanks for sharing, Emerson.

astrogeek 04-17-2017 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerson (Post 5698058)
Wow! That is not a surprise really, but _very_ revealing.

With Casey at the switch and a full head of steam, an epic train wreck seems almost inevitable. More happy than ever to be on a different set of tracks!

ChuangTzu 04-17-2017 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrogeek (Post 5698176)
Wow! That is not a surprise really, but _very_ revealing.

With Casey at the switch and a full head of steam, an epic train wreck seems almost inevitable. More happy than ever to be on a different set of tracks!
LOL...Pottering locked comments on April 17th...Voice concerns, report bugs...no problemo just lock the thread.

Reminds me of a recent rant by Linus about Kay and crew regarding systemd:
https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...md-4175603808/

sundialsvcs 04-17-2017 03:30 PM
It bears repeating that Unix was designed for a stand-alone minicomputer. And, for many dozens of years thereafter, computer technology had not yet progressed to the point where we could start deploying distributed solutions that might span dozens, hundreds, or, yes, thousands of machines.

The systemd design team felt that the legacy concepts and facilities simply could not "scale up" to a large number of machines, especially if those machines were in distant locations that could never physically be reached. They chose to take on a very big and ambitious (IMHO: too B&A ...) agenda, and it was very obvious from the start that their target audience was large-scale deployments.

But it's helpful even on a small scale. I can run "batch jobs." I can gather all of the logs from all of my half-dozen-or-so virtual computers into one place as one log. I can make changes that affect more than one computer at the same time. I can schedule periodic activities using a service-model that is far more sophisticated than "a simple timer." (It can be made adaptive to change: the mere fact that an activity took a few seconds more than usual is no longer something that must be programmed-for in scripts. "Yay!")

To me, there's nothing "philosophical" nor "sentimental" about any of this. It's strictly "where the rubber meets the road ... my(!) road!"

And, frankly: "If you can learn <this>, then you can easily learn <that>."

ChuangTzu 04-17-2017 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs (Post 5698249)
I

To me, there's nothing "philosophical" nor "sentimental" about any of this. It's strictly "where the rubber meets the road ... my(!) road!"

And, frankly: "If you can learn <this>, then you can easily learn <that>."
Then optional it would have been, not a hard dependency of large programs (im looking at you Gnome). OpenRC, runit, etc...are all and have been optional. DE's are optional, only thing mandatory is the kernel (in theory)...so why not the same for systemd, is that not quite sentimental and philosophical of the systemd devs. Especially with comments like BSD is no longer relevant and Slackware/Gentoo are toy distros etc...(Pottering)

Xeratul 04-17-2017 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs (Post 5698249)
But it's helpful even on a small scale. I can run "batch jobs." I can gather all of the logs from all of my half-dozen-or-so virtual computers into one place as one log.
There is always some guys that would like to make business/money from free softwares / Open Source / GNU. Spying and tracking is today common.

Maybe, a solution: the GNU GPL or GPL license could be adapted to avoid falling into the hands of giants such as Gnome/Ubuntu/Google... There is no return for Linux once corporations take control over.
Look Android, it's Linux, and your life and phone data easily into the Google Inc. hands.

Anyhow, there is always the possibility to move to BSD or to rewrite your own kernel. Let's call it FreeUnix.

hydrurga 04-17-2017 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeratul (Post 5698260)
There is always some guys that would like to make business/money from free softwares / Open Source / GNU. Spying and tracking is today common.

Maybe, a solution: the GNU GPL or GPL license could be adapted to avoid falling into the hands of giants such as Gnome/Ubuntu/Google... There is no return for Linux once corporations take control over.
Look Android, it's Linux, and your life and phone data easily into the Google Inc. hands.

Anyhow, there is always the possibility to move to BSD or to rewrite your own kernel. Let's call it FreeUnix.
So what exactly is the problem with people wanting to make money from free software? You may be misinterpreting the meaning of "free". And that has nothing to do with spying and tracking.

Here's a list of some distros described as being "non-free" by the Free Software Foundation.

https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.en.html

You'll find the BSDs on that list. :)

It's always a good idea to decide who it is that you're actually fighting against, and why.

hydrurga 04-17-2017 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu (Post 5698230)
LOL...Pottering locked comments on April 17th...Voice concerns, report bugs...no problemo just lock the thread.

Reminds me of a recent rant by Linus about Kay and crew regarding systemd:
https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...md-4175603808/
It was a lovely rant, admittedly, but "recent"? It was three years ago. That's not particularly recent in computing terms, imo.

rob.rice 04-18-2017 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrurga (Post 5698071)
If ifs and buts were pots and pans. :) Re-inventing the wheel, no. Redesigning it, yes.
yes they did and it's square

rob.rice 04-18-2017 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeratul (Post 5698028)
It is just meaning that the original "Unix philosophy" is no longer existing in today's Linux community.

The today's Linux community is not congruent at all.


So, let's take a simple programmer example. Are you ready?
GTK is today classic and standard, right? Compiling this will cause in interesting results on your installation.
Code:
/* example-start base base.c */

#include <gtk/gtk.h>

int main( int  argc,
          char *argv[] )
{
    GtkWidget *window;
   
    gtk_init (&argc, &argv);
   
    window = gtk_window_new (GTK_WINDOW_TOPLEVEL);
    gtk_widget_show  (window);
   
    gtk_main ();
   
    return(0);
}
/* example-end */
Awesome example, right? herewith what it gives
Code:
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  autopoint build-essential debhelper dpkg-dev fakeroot gettext gir1.2-atk-1.0
  gir1.2-freedesktop gir1.2-gdkpixbuf-2.0 gir1.2-glib-2.0 gir1.2-gtk-2.0
  gir1.2-pango-1.0 intltool-debian libalgorithm-diff-perl
  libalgorithm-diff-xs-perl libalgorithm-merge-perl libasprintf-dev
  libatk1.0-dev libcairo-script-interpreter2 libcairo2-dev libdpkg-perl
  libfakeroot libfile-fcntllock-perl libgdk-pixbuf2.0-dev libgettextpo-dev
  libgettextpo0 libgirepository-1.0-1 libgtk2.0-dev libharfbuzz-dev
  libharfbuzz-gobject0 liblzo2-2 libmail-sendmail-perl libpango1.0-dev
  libpixman-1-dev libsys-hostname-long-perl libxcb-shm0-dev libxcomposite-dev
  libxcursor-dev libxi-dev libxml2-utils libxrandr-dev po-debconf
  x11proto-composite-dev x11proto-randr-dev
0 upgraded, 44 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 14.3 MB of archives.
After this operation, 45.3 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
are you serous
the code looks like an endless loop to me
I don't code in C but it looks to me that all your example dose is open window after
after window after window after window until the power switch is turned off


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