affordable non-staggered keyboard
 

Does anyone know of a non-staggered keyboard that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to purchase? I'm not looking for anything real fancy, like the Kinesis Advantage, just a basic keyboard but with non-staggered keys. Aside from that I really don't care about features, layout, key labels (I touch type, so the damn thing could be in Chinese for all I care), or anything else. I just can't justify spending $100+ dollars (or anything near that) on a keyboard when my staggered keyboard cost $6.99 retail.

I got one $10 used LOL.

I don't think I've ever paid for my keyboards.
Honestly I can't justify new keyboards with Window's invasion of now recessed and rounded bubbles on the super key.

Do keyboards even break?

It still seems so silly that a particular OS should have it's logo on all keyboards (even those that have no Windows-specific features). I also saw keyboard with the Ubuntu logo, but still, they don't have any ubuntu-specific features. Why not just call it what it is (the Super key) and be done with it?

I also jokingly made up the theory that they are recessed now intentionally so you will have a hard time putting a sticker over it :).

What are non-staggered keys? Do you mean non-staggered in plan view, side-elevation view or front/back-elevation view? Can you post a link to a picture of a non-staggered keyboard?

He means that the keys should be in a square grid, not offset rows.

Thanks MTK358 :) I ain't nivver seen one o' they! I thought he might mean a flat keyboard, laptop-style. What are the advantages of such a keyboard?

Easier on the hands. I screwed up my hands in college from playing too much guitar, and now I have to take it easy. The staggered keyboards make you reach in weird angles when switching between rows, and it starts to hurt my hands after not too long.

For an idea of what on looks like:

http://humblehacker.com/Keyboard/

I would think that a square grid like that would make you reach in even weirder angles... :confused:

Also, is that laid out in Dvorak?

To mee it seems like it would be more comfortable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard

I actually tried Dvorak twice, and the letter layout did seem much more comfortable, but the problem was that I was deprived of programming (because I couldn't type) and the symbols used in programs seemed to be in awkward positions.

This is an interesting thread to me. A while back, I posted this thread: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...light=keyboard

On topic of this thread we're reading here: I've never seen one of those 'non-staggered' keyboards before, and I find that odd, since I've searched and researched keyboards *many* times over the last few years.

It does look easier maybe to use than a 'normal' keyboard. I'd like to try one too. Looks like it will REALLY take some getting used to, but might be worth the effort.

Also, on the subject of Dvorak: I have a wireless keyboard around here that I converted to Dvorak layout and spent some time learning to type on it. I did find it more intuitive, and easier on the hands, than the querty layout. I'm not a 'native' touch-typist; I don't quite 'hunt+peck' but I don't touch-type properly either (wish I would force myself to get it once and for all); but the Dvorak kbd I found is easier to use BOTH touch-typing properly as well as using the 'several-fingers' method.

@ lumak -- "Do keyboards ever break?" -- Not sure. Under normal/heavy/long-term usage, I've never has one "physically break" so it did not work, nor have I had one "electronically fail" so it did not work; I have however had one (my first one that originally came with this PC) in which the keycaps eventually had (A) no letters left visible on them; (B) the most-used keycaps appeared 'melted' for lack of a better word- as though the plastic was suffering from long-term heat or solar radiation damage; and (C) the keys all were becoming harder and harder to press because (I guess) the slidy-holes (??) that the key-stems slide up/down in were for some reason binding with the key-stems themselves, so it took a lot of effort to type on it. It still "worked" despite all the above, but was not super-usable. I got rid of it.

I've never paid for a keyboard either (since that first one that came with my first PC) -- since then, they just seem to accumulate on their own :)

Off-topic -- what I'd really like, is a Dvorak dual-alphabet (Cyrillic+Latin) keyboard, but in Canada they are basically non-existent, and to mail-order one costs much more than I'm willing to fork out.

Cheers,
Sasha

At least you can get used to the letter positions fairly quickly; I'm so used to QWERTY that it would take me forever to get used to that layout! :p

Question: would it be physically damaging if I tried to re-arrange the keycaps on my keyboard to Dvorak layout, so I could practice? All I'd need to do then is switch the layout in the keyboard settings...

EDIT: The keyboard's not one of those "ergonomic" keyboards, i.e. all the letters (and most of the symbol keys) are the same shape/size, so maybe it's plausible...?

!!! that looks like it would make typing slower then a boa constrictor !!!

@smeezekitty

I also have a hard time believing that it could even be tolerable to type on that thing.

@MrCode

On most keyboards it's OK to pop off the keys. In fact, occasionally I pry off all the keys on my keyboard with a flat-head screwdriver and wash them in a sink full of soapy water. I haven't come across a keyboard whose keys won't come off harmlessly, but I heard that it could damage certain keyboards.

Also, on most keyboards the key caps are contoured depending on where they are, and repositioning them can make the keyboard look and feel really bumpy and awkward. I once repositioned the keys to Dvorak on my current keyboard, and it's keys are all the same shape. The only problem was that the "F" and "J" keys had little tabs on them that wouldn't let them fit onto other sockets, so I sanded them off. Later I reconfigured it back to QWERTY, though. If I try Dvorak again some time, I would rather try do it without looking at the keyboard.

And one more thing about Dvorak -- the key combos that are designed to make sense on QWERTY are totally off in Dvorak, esp. Ctrl+X, C, and V.

And lastly, I always wanted to have something like this if it would be possible in Linux since I heard of it, esp. both in X and CLI: http://touchcursor.sourceforge.net/. I would really like it if someone could help me figure that out.

Nope. Just the opposite. Try putting your fingers in home row and reach your left-hand second finger down to the "c" key. In "proper" typing technique, this should be done without raising the other fingers. It borders on painful when done repetitively. Now try reaching for the "x" key with your third finger. Finally, trying reaching straight down with the same fingers, one at a time. Quite a bit more comfortable, isn't?

This along with the qwerty key layout were intentional designed in the 1880s (I think) to slow a typist down, as typing too fast on early type writers would cause problems.

And, yes, that is a Dvorak. Much easier on the hands also. Also, much more intuitive and easier to learn. As a qwerty touch-typist, after only about a week of 15-minute practice days I'm already becoming comfortable with it.

It is at first. I am learning C++, and the switch is a little weird for me right now. However, as with touch-typing, once you force yourself to do it for about a week or two, you forget that it was ever awkward.

Now, that's different! I'm surprised you've never encountered non-staggered keyboards, though. They seem to be all over the place. Here are a couple others that caught my eye, if you're interested:

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/
http://typematrix.com/

I've seen nothing but rave reviews for that Kinesis, as weird as it looks. However, I just can't help but think that with the $300 price tag, I could just build my own custom keyboard and have exactly what I wanted.

Somebody else mentioned the contours, but sometimes the keys also happen to be slanted ever so slightly in one direction or another, because of the staggered design, making rearranging awkward.

For the record, when I changed my wireless from qwerty to Dvorak, I too had to use a knife to pare off some little tabs and grooves which prevented simply swapping the keys, as they would not all fit into their new slots because of them.

And yes, the result was a little bit bumpy due to the key contours, but not such that it made it "bad" -- actually, the new contours/topography was kinda handy for being able to detect where your fingers were without looking, same as those home-hey bumps on a normal kbd.

@ Alex -- thanks, I'll look at those links.

Sasha

Maybe Dvorak could be worth it, then. I might just sometimes switch the keymap and bring up a Dvorak keyboard diagram and type something.

BTW, what are the commands to change the keymap to Dvorak and back to US qwerty?

Like I said, you really just have to force yourself to use the layout, or to learn to touch-type. If you haven't learned to touch type yet, it will probably take you a bit longer to convert to touch-typing with the Dvorak, but a couple of weeks at the most. Start by just using Dvorak a bit each day, with an online tutor (I like http://gigliwood.com/abcd/), and then when you know the keys on each row and the positions, take a towel, throw it over your hands, and a couple weeks later you'll have forgotten that you ever looked at your keyboard.

Also, you don't really have to go through all the lessons, I didn't. Do a lesson until you are at the point that, even with a second of thinking, you can remember the correct position of the letter on the keyboard, and then move on. Finally, when you can visualize each row, go ahead and make the switch, and use the towel. It'll be very painful at first, but it pays of in the end.

The Linux and BSD kernels don't play nice with my hardware at this point, so I'm back to MS for a while. If you are using a DE, there should be some sort of system settings directory with a "keyboard" settings manager. Generally, these allow you to choose the keyboard layout you want to use, making it very easy to switch between qwerty and Dvorak layouts. I'm not sure the how to switch via the command-line, but you probably won't be able to do it without some sort of special program.

I can partially touch-type. I both use a combination of looking at the keys and remebering about where they are. Occasionally I catch myself typing without looking if I'm not thinking about it.

Maybe. But I think I will use Dvorak only when learning, and then switch to QWERTY for real work until I would be comfortable with Dvorak.

I am not using a DE, but I think there is a way to set the keymap. And not for X Windows, but for the entire system.

I think I poorly explained: Basically what I meant was that the remapping is software driven. So yes, you'd have to reset the keymap, I just don't know if the Linux kernel supports this feature natively or if you have to do it with the assistance of a special program, like those included in the DEs.

Since I am not going to use Dvorak outside X anytime soon, I added these aliases to my .bashrc:

Also one thing I noticed is that the staggering of the keys is very confusing and strains my fingers in Dvorak. BTW, I am writing this using Dvorak!

I modified Wikipedia's Dvorak map in a way that makes it easier to use for me, it's attached.

EDIT: I see Wikipedia calls it the win key, not the Super key. :mad:

Since when are we all talking about some d****k who knows keyboard just to learn how type again, considering there is no real advantages.

Got it already, I see!

The staggering of keys is more noticeable with the Dvorak because the layout is designed to keep your most commonly used letters on the home row. Therefore, when you have to type a letter on another row it is difficult mentally to move your anything but the one finger you have to in order to hit that key.

Proper QWERTY technique encourages this same finger placement, but the key layout has you skipping around so often that it is difficult to perform and, as you pointed out, the staggered keys make it painful even when you execute the technique correctly.

Honestly, I don't understand why we're still using staggered keyboards in the 21st century. They are inefficient and bad for your hands. I get the QWERTY thing, switching keyboard layouts is difficult, and QWERTY has been ingrained for almost a century, but I can't imagine switching to a non-staggered layout would be any more than a slight nuisance for the few days before you adapted.

EDIT: The win key, eh? Hmm, maybe we'll have to correct their image!

What was the purpose of staggered keys anyway? (still using Dvorak)

And AFAIK qwerty was not designed to be slow, it was designed to keep letters often typed together far apart to avoid jams.

Thanks for the info. :) I'll have to try it sometime (when/if I seriously want to try converting to Dvorak).

I do know that (modern) Mac keyboards are key-swappable, because when I was in high school, I would notice that somtimes the keyboards of the computers in the labs would have some of the arrow keys switched around, or letter/number keys would be switched. Sometimes even modifier keys would be missing! (:eek:)

Well, that isn't exactly true either. From Wikipedia:

Truthfully, no one knows for certain. But the reason I don't like the "keep the common keys farther apart" explanation is that it doesn't explain the staggered layout, which is nothing more than a huge impediment to efficiency. There isn't any logical, mechanical, or ergonomic reason that the keys are staggered the way they are unless they were placed intentionally to slow the typist down.

Also, I don't know if you have ever heavily used a manual typewriter, but for a fast typist, the QWERTY arrangement doesn't keep the keys from jamming at typing speed. Mine would jam all the time. The only thing that kept them from jamming more often is that I couldn't type any faster because of the poor key layout, the staggered design, and the fact that the keys were heavy and had a very long stroke (another impediment that could have been easily corrected in later typewriters).

I easily gained 20+ WPM on a computer keyboard, and that was from nothing more than not have to press so deeply or strongly on the keys. As for Dvorak, I'm still extremely new to it at this point, but others have claimed to gain at least 10-20 WPM increase once they finalized the switch (though I take that claim with a healthy dose of skepticism, it does make logical sense).

But honestly, I won't say I know from certain. I'm just going on speculation and experience.

Keep at it! We'll make a Dvorak user out of you yet!

i just remapped my keyboard to ABCD.
BTW it took forever to type this message!

I already have you on my ignore list, yet still find you remarkably irritating.

Maybe if you bothered to read something everything once in a while, you'd learn to shut your mouth rather than constantly revealing the unending depths of your own stupidity.

Please try and keep LQ a fun place to be for everybody, OK? Besides, if you have something kill-filtered then aren't you supposed to just ignore it at all times anyway?..

Smeeze, you well know you've been asked before to do some remapping of your own. While this is the /General forum where off-topic, non-technical small talk is allowed, your mindless gabbing at times is something LQ can do without. So please keep it in check, OK?

Yeah, most off-the-shelf keyboards can be dismantled pretty easily to be cleaned or tinkered with.
There are exceptions to look out for: the Das Keyboards for example are a pain to clean because removing the keycaps can damage the mechanical switches. The manual suggested using compressed air and shaking the keyboard around upside-down to get the grit out :rolleyes:.

I don't know how typewriters work, but maybe they are staggered so that a bar can reach from the center of each key to the top of the keyboard. (still typing in Dvorak, very slowly)

EDIT: reminded me of this: http://www.dvzine.org/zine/index.html

In early typewriters, this made a lot of sense, but in later typewriters, it would have been easy enough just to add a little slanted tabby at the top of the type-bar to align the keys in a gridded format. It seems like it would have been a great marketing point to:

"Easier to type with! Easier on the hands!"

But maybe no one bothered to try and improve their product, I really don't know for sure. It seems completely nonsensical to me, but, well, since when has the corporate world ever made much sense! :D

The comic was fun, though. I liked the little Linux pengiun.


Sorry, I just always feel I have to keep a watch on the guy whenever I see he makes a post, or some poor, unsuspecting newbie to LQ might actually take him seriously.

But on another point, I understand your warning, but must protest that if you are warning me to not make nasty posts, you should also be warning him:

His posts are not just inane, but downright insulting. And this is just considering my thread.

@Alex Dc

What are those posts from smeezekitty even about?

He's mocking the fact that we are using a different keyboard layout.

But I apologize, again, to unSpawn, I must have scrolled right past the post where you addressed Smeeze. Thank you.

And I haven't heard that an ABCD keyboard is supposed to be better.

Thats exactly the point.
There is really no advantages from switching from qwerty.
And i got annoyed from this is better then that posts so i posted something annoying back.

But it says that Dvorak is supposed to be better, and I do agree that the letter placement feels more comfortable. So when I can I switch the layout and type stuff, like right now, and I will see if I get used to it and like it.

I love QWERTY for general typing.. Punctuation marks are right where I want them, numbers are out of the way, the letter controls are all setup so I can control them with my left pinky.

The point when it gets difficult is typing special chars like ()[]{}\/:";' because my right pinky has been broken too many times to actually stretch over there. I've been curious about a new keyboard design, especially one that would make it easier to type symbols for programming languages.

Those are routinely the only typing errors I'll make. Everything's flowing perfectly, then I type [ instead of ], then backspace, then [ instead of ] again you know.. It's poor positioning for those charaters. I think a smaller spacebar would be better, because you could move those chars to the spacebars level.

I only use my left thumb to space anyhow, so I could use the right for the punctuation. (either that, or replace the rightshift key which I never use either.)

No one is making "this" vs "that" posts. We were discussing different keyboard layouts. There was no quarelling or negativity until your comments were made. No one addressed or attacked you. Your comments were completely unprovoked, unwarranted, and immature (not to mention unwanted).

And aside from that, there is siginifigant scientific evidence that suggests Dvorak is eaiser on the hands of the typist. You don't want to believe it? Fine: I don't care, your entitiled to your own opinion. You want to share that opinion? Fine: This is an open forum. But do it in a mature way. "I don't think there is any evidence to suggest using a keyboard layout other than QWERTY has any advantages." Want to argue your views? Fine, post some evidence: I'm always up for some constructive critism. But, at the risk of action by a moderator: I will reiterate a again: your posts were nothing more than meaningless, negative stupidity.

Finally, if you were so annoyed by the subject matter of the thread, then why did you even bother to post?

The original top of the thread was " affordable non-staggered keyboard ".
I will not post any more in this thread since it will just make a pointless flamewar worse.

And there wasn't any flamewar until you came along and startem mocking us.

Thank you. But, frankly, I'm just glad he's gone. :)

Still using Dvorak?

Ouch, that doesn't sound fun. I'm not sure how much a different layout would help your fingers, but I want to get a non-staggered design for just about the same reason. I have some pretty sever tendinitis in both my hands, and the odd stretching that a staggered keyboard makes you do can be painful after a while.

But, if you are a serious programmer, they do make quite a few keyboards that emphasize less pinky movement. They are pricey, but you might want to check some of them out. On I posted earlier is the TypeMatrix:

http://typematrix.com/

EDIT: Actually, I just realized the TypeMatrix probably emphasizes just as much right hand pinky movement. The Kinesis I also posted earlier might be a more suitable choice:

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/ (click on "ergonomic", then "contoured")

There are also a few other interesting looking keyboards if you google around. I even found one very odd, spherical shaped keyboard that has something like 80% of the keys on whichever hand you prefer, and 20% of the keys on the other hand. I can't seem to remember the name of it, however... "Malrod" or something.

Yes, in situations where being VERY slow and having to think about typing is OK, like writing this small post.

That's enough. What didn't need to be said was said anyway and what needed to be said has been said already. Order restored. So please cut it out now and keep this thread on topic.

I never could accept the compromise made when switching to a divided keyboard. As a result of years of having my actions be interrupted by one thing or another, I became ambidextrous and skilled at typing one handed with either hand (though it is notably slower than with two hands). A divided keyboard slows that process down a bit.

Come to think of it, the shift key, space key, control key, return key, backspace key, and the number keys are fine, and the letters are fine.

What then, if the remaining keys (with the exception of the function keys) were located elsewhere entirely? At first, I might think to suggest switches controlled by the feet, but in the interest of being able to use the computer no matter what clothing you're wearing, I hereby forbid that idea.

Actually, I think the real solution is to move the special characters away from the letters entirely, similar to the numpad. The home/end/insert etc keys don't ever get used, and they would accommodate (){}[]. The access requires moving the hand a long distance, but that's better than typos.

Are you referring to the HOME, INS and END keys in the little 6-key block above the cursor arrows? Yeek :O I like those where they are :) and they get used quite a bit on my kbd, as do the other 3 in that block.

The numpad though..... Hmm, I wouldn't mind seeing that entire end of the keyboard become something more useful, like maybe a trackball with some buttons and stuff. For those who *need* a numpad, those external stand-alone ones seem the perfect thing!

:twocents:
Sasha