Is it supposed to be this hard to install debian?
 

The debian site suggests that I install debian via network download, starting from bootable CD. This page lists "Unofficial cd's for the stable version", but no "official" net install cd's for the stable version! So I picked an unofficial net install (David Kimdon's ... I also tried the LordSutch which was much worse) and what followed was the most primitive, absurd, ridulously bad installation of an linux distro I've tried so far. So far over the years I've tried various versions of mandrake, redhat, fedora, and mepis. Oh, and knoppix if you count that.

I mean, wow. Just horrible, shocking. I'm supposed to tell it each and every device I have? And then tell it the line command, even for like AGP support? And it failed to install my 3com etherlink ii... And then when I restart it sets me up with dselect which is similarly awful. This is like stone-aged computing, something I'd expect from the early 80s.

So- is the network install not a fair representation of debian, are the cd's the way to go?

i used Libranet 2.7 -- it set up debian like a dream, detecting everything. then i just upgraded with apt-get. piece of cake. :cool:

Do yourself a favor and install Gentoo if you want a good distro.

I would say Mandrake but I sense that you want a more 'basic' kind of install.

Gentoo is a dream, and their docs are topnotch.

I refer to Debian as "The CULT distro."

You have to be in the Debian cult to like it from A to B....it is that horrible to install, and to work with.

...highly overrated.

Yes, it is supposed to be that hard. To make it easier, do not read the Deb install docs, do not try a netinstall, do not use jigdo, do not use dselect. It'll still suck, but it'll be better. Surf the net for some third-party 'easy Deb install' docs and follow those - or, I suppose, as many people do, buy proprietary stuff based on Debian or do a Knoppix hard drive install.

I mercifully avoided netinstall but fell into the doc trap and the jigdo trap before I gave up and downloaded ISOs and then fell into the dselect trap which I got out of by sheer dumb luck. Debian has the worst installer in the universe - this coming from a Slackware user who had fun with Gentoo. I'd rather install Core again.

Plus, you'll need to switch to Sid and do some heavy upgrading if you want to get into this millenium. Debian is an ideal thing for some arcane piece of hardware intended to be a server, but isn't really ideal for a PC desktop and it is indeed a bit heavy on the 'social philosophy' when most people want to run some excellently put-together ones and zeros. I worry about how many newbies have run screaming back to Windows after trying a Debian install, never to return. :(

Still, once you get the thing going, it's okay. I prefer Slack or Gentoo, myself, but to each their own.

I used the Lordsuch iso for a net install and while I didn't find it easy I did get a full installation in a day over a dial-up connection. I found the official installation guide fairly good and by following default options it went fairly well. I had only done two installs of Linux before that, Mandrake 8 (which I hated because it was slow and I couldn't really get to grips with their systems) and CorelLinux which made me want to go to Debian. I do have a hardware background and have used a unix based system for 10 years. I even got into dselect and having figured it out found it quite good. I still use dselect for new installs as I have most of the packages stored on a cd. Debian is not for the faint hearted but anyone using it will learn a lot. I find the average Debian user far more aware of the system and structure than users from other distros.

The Lordsuch cd uses ancient kernel 2.2. So it couldn't read my adaptec scsi card, even though it's 5 years old!

That's not quite correct because you have the option of bf24 install which has the 2.4.16 kernel which includes support for adaptic scsi.

I gave up trying to install Debian several times. So much trouble, and not such a great distro after all the effort (way behind in almost everything).

I tried Slackware 9.1 after years of RedHat, and am very impressed. It is another 'tech' distro reputedly but it is very easy to work with. Best distro I've tried yet ... I've tried RedHat, SuSE, Mandrake, Debian so far.

Why don't you use the beta installer that does better hardware detection? It's a 100M net install iso of testing. I used it and had a working system in under 30 minutes (including a dist-upgrade to unstable). I found debian just as easy to install as any other distro. That's not intended to be gloating in any way because I'm about as far as it gets from being a "linux guru"

Debian daily build iso

Rotwang:

read this article, it's the easiest way, you just need CD1 and adsl. Of if you
have CD5, you got it made, no net install for you.

The Very Verbose Debian 3.0 Installation Walkthrough
http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2016

Insert the cd1, at the boot prompt write:

bf24

If you have CD5, inser it, no need to write anything.

Assuming you have CD1 and not 5:

configure the language and keyboard, when asked if you want to use the CD to install modules, base system, say NO. A menu will appear, choose Network.

A dialog will appear, to configure the network, if you have DHCP, it will be done in less than a minute. Install the modules, partition the disk with cfdisk.
Configure the booting, reboot.

When you come back do the passwords, accept the use of debconf, configure APT (it's self-explanatory) Refuse Tasksel and Deselect (you're gonna use APT).
With APT, as Root:

apt-get install x-window-system

Configure X:
Choose "Advanced" if possible.
Choose video card and write down its memory amount
Monitor horizontal frequency (something like 30-70)
Monitor Vertical freq (something like 50-160)
Choose resolution you like (mine is 1024x768)
Mouse: PS2 and later IMPs2 (scroll mouse)

Install wm:
#apt-get install fluxbox or whatever, don't do KDE or Gnome yet.

you are done.

I recommend moving to Testing aka Sarge
as root in the terminal:

apt-get update
apt-get upgrade

now Woody/Stable is up-to-date, this step is a must if you want to change versions.

as Root edit /etc/apt/sources.list

change the word Stable or Woody to Testing or Sarge or if you want: unstable or Sid
SAVE and EXIT

Back to the console, as root:

apt-get update
apt-get dist-upgrade

it will take a while, answer some questions, take the default if you don't know
and voilá you are in Sarge or Sid. Read the APT HOWTO, very important. Check the package list in the same site www.debian.org

To install packages:
#apt-get install <packages>
(you can install several packages at the same time, separate them by a space)

To remove packages:
#apt-get remove --purge <packages>

Personally, i install additional packages like:

apt-get install localepurge deborphan artwiz-cursor

Localepurge will save you tons of real estate.

I'm not sure about the order of the installation but, READ the article, is the best i've read for newcomers.


salud,
mac

Yeah Rotwang, installing Debian is a pain.

This isn't because of lack of hardware dectection, since you should know what's in your box, shouldn't you? :)

Jigdo is a nice piece of software with a pretty good howto.

The problem is that dselect needs to be dumped (or made available only to users who want it and know how to use it) and tasksel could stand to be enhanced (for example -- it should tell you that you don't need that ppp stuff, including that wwwolfe thing, just to use dialup with pon and poff).

I tried learning dselect a while back -- it's really a nightmare. The docs are awful (yes, including that dselect beginners howto -- sorry, but it's the truth :( ).

Though, I guess this discussion is moot since I hear that a new installer is in the works.

No I don't think so. The lordsuch doesn't have the bf24 install, you're thinking of the David Kimdom install cd's. Look:

http://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/

I have taken the following extracts from my Lordsuch CD;

1. Extracted from the README.txt;

About This CD
=============

This CD-ROM is labeled

Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 "Woody" - LordSutch.com MiniCD i386 Binary-1

which means that this CD is number 1 of totally 1 CDs containing
programs ("binaries") for `i386' computers.

The programs on the Binary CDs are ordered by popularity. The Binary-1
CD contains the most popular programs and the installation tools; it
is possible to install and run Debian with only the Binary-1 CD. The
other CDs, up to Binary-1, contain mostly special-interest programs.

Extracted from the install.en.txt;

4.2.2. Choosing the Right Installation Set
------------------------------------------

Installation files include kernel images, which are available in
various ``flavors''. Each flavor supports a different set of
hardware. The flavors available for Intel x86 are:

`vanilla'
The standard kernel package available in Debian. This includes
almost all drivers supported by Linux built as modules, which
includes drivers for network devices, SCSI devices, sound cards,
Video4Linux devices, etc. The `vanilla' flavor includes one
rescue floppy, one root and four driver floppies.

`compact'
Like `vanilla', but with many of the less-frequently-use drivers
removed (sound, v4l, etc). In addition, it has built in support
for several popular PCI Ethernet devices --- NE2000, 3com 3c905,
Tulip, Via-Rhine and Intel EtherExpress Pro100. These built in
drivers allow you to take full advantage of the Debian
installer's net install feature to install the driver floppies
over the network so that only the root and rescue floppy disks
need to be made. Finally, `compact' also supports several common
RAID controllers: DAC960, and Compaq's SMART2 RAID controllers.
The `compact' flavor includes one rescue floppy, one root and two
driver disks.

`idepci'
Kernel that supports only IDE and PCI devices (and a very small
number of ISA devices). This kernel should be used if the SCSI
drivers in the other flavors cause your system to hang on startup
(probably because of resource conflicts, or a misbehaving
driver/card in your system.) The `idepci' flavor also has a
built-in ide-floppy driver so that you can install from LS120 or
ZIP devices.

`bf2.4'
This is an experimental flavor which uses a special version of
the kernel-image-2.4 package. It provides support for newer
hardware components which is absent in the other (more stable)
flavors. It supports more USB hardware, USB keyboards/mice,
modern IDE controllers, some new network cards, and Ext3 and
Reiser file systems. Compared to the driver set of our main
kernel-image-2.4.x-yz packages, some non-essential drivers have
been removed in order to keep the number of needed floppy disks
in a sane range. If you have unexplainable problems with kernel
2.4, you should use other flavors. If you need more new drivers
or optimisations for your CPU type, feel free to install an
"official" kernel-image-2.4.x-yz package. This flavor comes with
one rescue floppy, one root and four driver floppies.

Although we have described above how many 1.44MB diskettes the
different sets occupy, you may still choose different methods of
installation.

The kernel config files for these flavors can be found in their
respective directories in a file named `kernel-config'.

extract of the install sub-directory of the cd;

file:/cdrom/install/doc
file:/cdrom/install/bf24.bin
file:/cdrom/install/boot.bat
file:/cdrom/install/compact.bin
file:/cdrom/install/idepci.bin
file:/cdrom/install/lin24
file:/cdrom/install/lincompt
file:/cdrom/install/linpci
file:/cdrom/install/linux
file:/cdrom/install/loadlin.exe
file:/cdrom/install/rawrite2.exe
file:/cdrom/install/rawrite2.txt
file:/cdrom/install/README.sbm
file:/cdrom/install/rescue.bin
file:/cdrom/install/root.bin
file:/cdrom/install/sbm.bin
file:/cdrom/install/setlang.bat
file:/cdrom/install/TRANS.TBL

file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/bf2.4
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/compact
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/doc
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/dosutils
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/idepci
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/images-1.20
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/images-1.44
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/images-2.88
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/lang
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/drivers.tgz
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/install.bat
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/kernel-config
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/linux.bin
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/md5sum.txt
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/READ-ca.txt
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/READ-da.txt
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/READ-es.txt
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/READ-fr.txt
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/READ-gl.txt
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/READ-it.txt
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/READ-pl.txt
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/README.txt
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/TRANS.TBL
file:/cdrom/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.23-2002-05-21/xlp.tgz

I hope this puts an end to this dispute - the 2.4.16 kernel is present on the cd and is selected by using the option bf24 for install. I have done it enough times to know.
Thank you!

The various install methods from debian are not for everyone and compared to other distributions, all of them suck. Part of the reason is that it is old and outdated. Another reason is that not a lot of development goes on in the debian install software. If you do not wish to go through the pain of trying to find out which drivers you need to load, try a distribution based on debian(libranet, knoppix, gnoppix, etc...) then upgrade or try a different distribution.

No!

And I didn't have to know with the other 5 linux flavors I tried.

But thanks I'll take a look at jigdo. I think I'm ready to just give up on debian at this point tho.

thanks

Fair enough, although- my original statement "The Lordsuch cd uses ancient kernel 2.2." is not incorrect, either. It does use 2.2 kernel. By default, in fact.

But ok, sure, lordsuch can do 2.4 kernel if I explicitly tell it to. One more annoying install step that helps makes my case here.

It is indeed relatively a bit hard to install Debian.
But it is not that terribly hard.
Remember the first time you learned to ride a bicycle, the first time you learned to swim?
Was it easy?
However,once you know how to do it, it would become fairly easy.
Isn't it a good practice to challenge something supposed to be hard to do?
Anyway, that's just my opinion. I am not saying Debian is the best choice.
Linux is all about free options. One may choose whatever distro he/she likes

{Note: liquigel ==> johnMG}

Rotwang, sorry for any confusion: jigdo is just a program to help you get debian iso's quickly, reliably, piece-by-piece.

Anyhow, if you aren't interested in having to know specifically what hardware is in your box, then distros like debian or slackware probably aren't for you.

You'll likely be better served by Fedora.

As an aside, I got my debian cd set from abexia. Then, sat there in front of a clean machine (no OS'es installed yet) and installed debian a number of times 'till I got it right.

IIRC, the problems I had were:

- accidentally thinking I could learn to understand and use dselect.

- using tasksel, I installed the extra ppp package, which it turns out, is not even required at all if all you want to do is use dialup and run pon and poff to connect and disconnect, respectively.

- the system kept asking me to configure stuff that I didn't yet want installed (like exim). I think changing tasksel (to give more specific choices) would help fix this issuue.

- X automatically starting up at boot-time, but it was misconfigured and the system kept trying to reboot for some reason. Eventually, I installed rcconf and shut off xdm (uninstalling xdm would've worked too), but I think I had to do that booting via install CD #1.

- not knowing if my system clock was set to GMT (would've been nice to check/change it right there)

- other stuff I can't remember since it was a while ago.

Rotwang:
buddy, there is no free lunch. Either you install a no-brainer like Mandrake or Fedora/Suse and deal with the RPMs dependency hell later on, or spend the best part of the week compiling Gentoo, or fishing for drivers on Slackware, OR you bite the bullet, read the article i gave you which helped me install Debian as a newbie with no Linux knowledge the first time i tried, it taught me how to partition with cfdisk, install a lean distro, how to use apt, i didn't know the trick of writing 'bf24' at the boot prompt, ended up with a 2.2 kernel and woody, happy as a pig in mud, thinking i was a genius, installed Woody the first time around? i didn't know sarge or sid existed, now you do, you are ahead of the game. We all go out of our ways to explain things to you but all you do is bitch about writing 'bf24', tell me how hard is it? You have to love this shit otherwise, you'll be frustrated.

So have a cold one, follow the instructions in the article, after you are thru, ask us what you want, we WILL help you, no RTFM from us, we all went thru it, but please, stop belly-aching. Download CD1 or CD5, or buy for $15 the whole set.

Somebody already mentioned to you Libranet 2.7 from www.libranet.com, minimal install=25 minutes, go for it! It's Debian Woody, automatic hardware recognition, automatic partition if you want, you can install
everything and the kitchen sink or go minimal, upgrade to Sarge or Sid and it's FREE, one cd only.

macondo

Well thanks um, brewsky-meister buddy pal duuude. But I've already given up on debian, on the advice of some of the other people who posted. I like "debian is a cult" the best.

I'll take the "no-brainers", (aka "nearly every other major distro of linux") gleefully.

My "belly-achin'" has stopped. No wait, I might write a review of debian in the distro review section. That would be a funny review. I promise not to tell anything but the truth if I do.

Rotwang ; your comments are interesting - seems a lot of the more advanced tech people in the world don't agree. Debian is the fastest growing distro in the world at the moment and has more "commercial" distro's based on it than any other including Knoppix, Libranet, Lindows etc. They must be doing something right.
Anyways, horses for courses - you tried it, didn't like it so move on. Writing a review would only draw attention to your own lack of knowledge and the inability to interpret what's on the screen in front of you ( a common trait amongst the impatient).

If you want a computer that just "does the job", go on and install Suse, Fedora or whatever (these are good distributions I think, don't misunderstand me). Debian (and Gentoo) are, as I think, for people that want to do the effort to really learn linux and get more out of their box. I will never recommend these distributions (gentoo and debian) to fresh linux users, as then you will get comments like "stone age computing". Yes indeed: stone age computing... but then build your own system from the ground up. I have never learned so much about computer software as in the half year I use debian sid (and I used suse for 1 year before).

regards,
kingka

My 2 cents:

After trying almost everything else and still not finding the Holy Grail of Linux, I decided to give Debian a shot. And I just wanna say that Debian is by far the most solid distro I've used so far -- although it did take about 3 days for me to figure out how to get it running with X11. But after that, it's really a treat! Wanna know how I installed KDE3.2.1?

# apt-get install kde

20 minutes later, it was done.

With Fedora, I installed the OS in 45 minutes. But after several days of dependency hell, I gave up on KDE 3.2. Debian is really worth the initial investment IMO.

Are you using woody, sarge or sid? Have been waiting for some to give ideas of stabilty before upgrading from KDE 3.1.5

Original install was Woody. But of course I've gotten some stuff from the SID repositories in order to boldly step into the 21st century ;-)

I can't recommend KDE3.2 highly enough. I hated KDE and used gnome until this release. It's really *really* nice and fast and solid. Only thing that ruins it is that wacky KDE tendency to put 12 million icons on every toolbar, but you can clean it up with a quick trip to the Konqueror settings dialog.

Enjoy!

use sid ... I have never used woody or sarge but never had problems with debian sid, it is stable so don't worry

go with the beta installer - works like a dream and easy.

I did a hard drive install from knoppix, changed the sources list to only debian unstable (for SID), fix broken dependencies and that was it :D

lynrees wrote:
> go with the beta installer - works like a dream and easy.

More info? Howto?

Sorry to quote myself but.... :D

Doh!

Thanks augamecock.

Debian
 

Hi there, Its time for the 2 Cents from Londonboi :D

Debian is the Best OS on the Face of the Planet.......... Opps sorry i meant in the universe

I had many many problems the very first time i installed it, I mean 2 years ago i was happy with RH and suse and mandrake. I thought rpms were the way to go......

But in the end i got sick and tired of rpm dependcy problems most of the software i wanted installed would not install because other dependencys need to be installed and then the dependecy i downloaded would not install because it depended on something eles..... Anyway i could go on about that for ages so i wont bore you to death....

So anyway I spent 3 days trying to work out how to install debian, Then on the 3rd day, it worked, it installed and downloaded everthing i needed.

I did not use dselect or aptitude, I just typed the command "apt-get update" then "apt-get install gnome x-windows-system xmms mozilla xchat xine w32codecs" And that was that

A fully installed system..... I have not needed to reinstall my computer since.

I use the unstable brance and once a week i pass the command apt-get dist-upgrade to grab all the latest stuff and upgrades.

Apt-get sorts out ALL dependencys and i have NEVER had ANY problems atall.

All I want to say is "Hail to the creaters of Debian, I nbow before you ;)"

Anyway that is that, and if you dont like debian then dont use it, and dont rant about it :tisk:

There is a reason why its no.1 OS in my books :D :D :D :D :D

Re: Debian
 

Now I know what Nu-Bee meant by "The Cult Distro".

:D

Debian isn't hard to install but you may have to configure stuff and know a little bit about your hardware. If you've got trouble installing it, you may have to read a little bit about linux and debian online manual before installing it that's it.
I'm using only debian as my only os and i don't have trouble with it. I have been using it for 3 years without regret.

At install , i just took the monolitic kernel 2.2 and loaded the module for my network card, i didn't care to get sound working,etc...
I never used dselect or taskel at install.
do you want to use dselect - no
do you want to run tasksel - no
I installed just the minimum with the first cd and after i edited the sources.list files to prepare the upgrade to testing.

*apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade;
*apt-get install fluxbox gkrellm mozilla etc...
*apt-get install kernel-source-latest and yop so fresh so clean brand new kernel

*apt-get remove lilo --purge && apt-get install grub

Xfree isn't well configured, well i don't really mind. XFree86 -configure and follow the instructions.
Before using debian, i was using mandrake and then redhat, slackware, gentoo,etc... I used redhat and mandrake most for almost 3 years and i decided to switch to debian/freebsd.

i* don't really like rpm dependencies, to wander and go to seek for rpms at freshrpms or rpmfind, so apt and bow down :-)
apt-get install xxx && apt-get clean
*Easy upgrade and maintenance, all about apt, no redhat rhn applet disappearing, no mandrake bugs to solve, i hate rpm distros.
*i learned more from Unix/linux when i switch to debian and learned even more from freebsd.

You know what i think, :-) it is the best linux out there, it doesn't mean it has to be difficult or too friendly, it is quality and stability you get and lazzy administration/installation with apt.

Many Debian developers would agree
 

It's been around two years since I've attended a Debian conference, but I receive various Debian mailings. I'd say that many, if not most, of the Debian developers realize that while, on one hand, the default Debian installer is very flexible, it is incredibly outdated, not very easy to use, and could stand improvements, even for the people who understand it well. There are projects to improve the situation that are part of the main Debian project; in fact, issues with modifying the installer are among several reasons delaying the next major Debian release from being finalized.

The Debian installer that is undergoing testing is vastly improved from what the current "stable" installer offers, but given the fact that it's not ready for prime time, it might not be ready for the typical consumer either.

There are a number of alternative ways to get into Debian software that make the initial entry point much easier. For me, someone sent me a copy of Libranet. I installed it easily, then gradually learned how to use apt-get to install new software. More recent versions of Libranet include a GUI package installation tool, synaptic, which further simplifies software installation. Libranet is commercial and it costs money for the most recent version. However, in the spirit of freedom, Libranet almost always makes an older version of their software freely available for download at no cost. If you have a broadband network, downloading older free Libranet ISO images, then upgrading the system once installed is an easy way to get into Debian software.

Other easy ways include installing Xandros or LindowsOS, both commercial, but very easy to install complete systems.

The most recent wave of Live CDs are widely available for Debian. Quite a number of Debian based Live CD systems exist, the most famous of which is Knoppix. Numerous special purpose Live CD implementations have emerged from Knoppix; I can recommend several of them; my personal favorite happens to be Mepis; Morphix has some interesting special purpose Live CDs.

Debian software, to me, offers an excellent compromise between speed, ease of use, and maintainability. Though the default installer is cumbersome, the software packaging is excellent, especially the core underpinnings of the package management software. For me, I find it much faster to get into a Debian system than, for example, the increasingly popular Gentoo Linux. For me, any speed gains of the Gentoo approach are modest, and I can build pieces of Debian from sources, too, if I really need speed. If I really wanted the Gentoo like approach, I'd be more inclined to spend time with FreeBSD and OpenBSD (which I've also done). The BSDs also take a lot of time to build and rebuild, but their stuff tends to be significantly more stable than Gentoo Linux. All of those arguments aside, I continue to find Debian easier to maintain, once installed, faster to initially install (especially with the help of any of the prepackaged Debian systems), reliable, flexible, and able to handle any tasks that the other systems we've discussed can handle - I use a Debian based system for my routine desktop system, and I've been extremely satisfied with it.

Just my opinion.
I had tons of problems with Mandrake on my assembled laptop (the bells and whistles and its decision to do everything itself, without telling me what it was doing were among the least of my problems). Red Hat was not much better. I tried Debian and it is working perfectly - sure it took me sometime to figure out what files to edit, but it is working perfectly and that is probably the best tribute to Debian. I have now come to love the apt and the distro is extremely stable and secure.

My two cents:

I used the standard Debian Woody installer on two machines, one I was able to get to work, the other I never was able to get X working. The problem with Woddy is it is *so* far behind the times. It's got a 2.2 kernal, KDE 1. something, everything is hopelessy outdated, so even after a successful intstall, you're still going to spend a considerable amount of time updating.

There are several distros out there based on Debian that are MUCH easier to install. I've done it both ways, and I will never use the standard woody installer again, it's just not worth it. Why not use the best tools available? If you want to dig a hole, would you use a shovel or a backhoe if you had one?

I agree with previouis posters, Debian is the best distro I've tried. Even the "unstable" version is incredibly stable. I rarely have a problem. I use Knoppix exclusively now to install Debian, even on other people's computers. I just don't see *any* reason to use the woody installer. I haven't tried the new 100 meg Sarge installer yet, so I can't comment on that.

Apt-get makes upgrading software so easy. I always smile when I see others talking about their dependency problems when upgrading. I've seen several posts about upgrading to the new KDE 3.2 and what a pain it's been. I use Synaptic, which is a graphical front-end to apt-get, so I just click a couple buttons and all software packages on my distro are updated. Cool as snot!

try libranet, mephis
 

for those of you wanting to use Debian, the best installer i have tried for Debian so far has been Libranet...yeah i know it's not an installer, but after the very newbie friendly Libranet installer, you have a mixed Debian system and an upgrade to Sid (called 'unstable' but arguably more stable then other so called stable distro's out there) is just an apt-get -t unstable dist-upgrade away.

i have heard quite a few good things too about mephis linux. based on Debian and also a live CD installable to the HD...

...once you join the cult, it's hard to turn back... ;)

Before you give up completely on debian, you could try making a Knoppix live CD and using it. You can install it on your HD after you boot it, then apt-get works like a champ. It is less trouble than some other ways, and it does get the job done...

Lets see now, where is that website...

Oh yeah, take a look at: http://www.hostclub.net/reviews/knxinstall.html

It's not the guide I used, but the instructions are more or less the same...

Have a beer. It helps.

I recently installed debian for the first time. I had downloaded and attempted to install MANY of the other distros mentioned in this thread, and in the end it was Debian that worked for me.

I used the new sarge installer, and the only advice I can give is to NOT install ANYTHING using dselect or any of the other option-adding programs that the installer offers. Just go with the base system. Then, once it's installed, do an apt-get update, and then apt-get upgrade.

When you go the upgrade, it will download everything you need to get all of the latest goodies. AFTER that is complete, then again run dselect and pick anything else you want. Or, just use apt-get if that tickles your fancy.

I found the debian install to be an absolute breeze (well, I *did* have to get a few pointers from the good people over at linuxhelp.ca), and this is my first linux system EVER.

Gentoo was far too complicated for my newbie mind, and contrary to what I've heard some people say in this thread, the documentation on their site, though verbose, doesn't answer many of the questions that came to my mind as I did the install - it definitely assumes that you have previous linux knowledge.

Anyway, I read this thread yesterday and I wasn't going to reply, but tonight I stumbled across this page and thought that some of you might find it useful.

Oh, and if you're a newbie looking to get a non-GUI linux experience, I definitely recommend using Midnight Commander (apt-get install mc). It's a kickass program that allows you to easily navigate your filesystem, read documents, edit files, search for files and folders, ftp, etc etc etc. It's been invaluable to me as I get accustomed to the linux OS and folder structure.

I can see how Linux can be frustrating to a newbie. Especially Debian. Not getting good information., the sound doesn't work since all the newbie wants is to listen to his mp3s and go on the net...;-).
Listen to the other people here and get KNOPPIX. It's 1 CD only. I'm running Debain from a KNOPPIX install and I just upgraded my system with apt-get update. Took about 38 minutes but that's only because I am on a modem. The apt system is great. I already installed 2 apps.

This is a completely rediculous statement, and it tends to make me think you don't really know what you are talking about. If the original poster had problems with Debian's install, they will find the gentoo install almost impossible. It is harder, there is infinately more command line stuff, and it will take them about 8 hours to complete.

Where on earth did you come up with this rediculous FUD?

First time I ever installed debian - it was slink on an m68k (SE/30 to be precise) - it was my second linux distro (first being MKLinux DR3 on my G3). It was not too difficult to install.

A few years later - I installed it briefly on my IBM Thinkpad. I think it was either Potato or Woody - whatever stable was in late 2000. It worked - but was a PITA because either console mouse worked OR x11 mouse worked - but not both.

Anyway - I'm no newbie to installing Linux. I just tried installing Sarge (the 3/27/04 test snapshot). What a pain.

I'm installing from CD's I burned. I tell it not to worry about ppp and it gives me a dialog box saying that it has commented out some stuff in /etc/apt/apt.conf and I say OK and it stays there - hung.

Tried again - same thing.

Now I do have a dialup ISP - just in case I'm in a situation where I have to connect and my dsl is down. So I go ahead and feed it that info. It can't find my modem - so I tell it /dev/ttyS4 - 'cuz that's where it's at. Still can't succeed in dialing. So I switch to another console - and there is no /dev/ttyS4. MAKEDEV ttyS4. Now I'm in business - it dials - and I get the same freaking message.

Switch to a console again. ping yahoo.com - no response. Take a gander in /etc/resolv.conf - nothing there despite me having specified that info when it requested it. So I vi the file and enter the dns - now I can ping yahoo - now I can get past that step.

So anyway - it reads the data off of the CD to make its apt list or whatever - and then asks me to insert the CD and press enter when done. The CD is in there. I press enter. It asks me for the CD.

I switch to other console - the installer has neglected to put my cdrom in the /etc/fstab file. I fix that - and now it seems that everything is peachy. Or so I thought.

It boots into gdm and I get a nasty message about not being able to find my hostname. It set my /etc/hostname file to the hostname that the PPP connection it insisted on having gave me. I didn't set up any networking. So I chmod 000 /etc/init.d/gdm (easiest way to temporarily disable it), fix /etc/hostname (change it to localhost - which is in /etc/hosts) and reboot.

Got a console - type startx. KDE starts - I get through the configuration part - and then the KDE splashscreen starts. And stops at the wrench thing - and never gets any farther.

Just in case it was a permissions issue - I try startx again as root. Same thing. So I create a .xinitrc file to try twm to see if it has better luck. It starts just fine - opens my xterm and everything - but Mozilla will not work from within twm. In my LFS build - I have no issue with starting mozilla from within twm. Then the mouse goes berzerk and no matter what I do wants to shoot to the lower left hand corner.

I try again - despite using the same engine, epiphany works better in twm - but still doesn't fully work (it does from within a LFS environment) - and again, the mouse goes crazy.

Understand - this is a 3 button PS/2 mouse. It's not a fancy new technology mouse.

Let's just say I am not very impressed with Dabian Sarge. Could I fix the issues? Sure - but XF86Setup or XF86Config don't seem to be installed - and to be honest, I have better things to do than futz around fixing what should not be broken in the first place.

They need to focus more on getting a distro that installs properly and sets up properly - rather than having 12 binary CD's worth of packages.

KISS

I can see how Debian can be frustrating to a human.

I can see how Debian can be frustrating to anyone but a debian expert. Far cry for just saying "not for newbies". The phrase "not for newbies" has become an excuse for Debian's problems.

I found the beta 2 of the new debian installer to be very good, and easy to use.

It was a good experience, and much much nicer than the previous installer.

I'd recomend it to others, even newbies who have a spare computer (...auto partitioner).

hahahaha

Okay, let's calm down for a second.

Every install is different because every computer is different, and every human doing the install is different and will react to issues in a different way.

On any distro you choose to install, you'll probably encounter an issue of some kind. Sure Debian has some install problems, but I don't think Debian is alone in that class. I've encountered problems in just about every install I've *ever* done of ANY os.

I don't know what it is about Linux in particular, but it seems to me that if a linux distro bombs during an install, it is *so* frustrating to the person doing the install that they take it as a personal offense and decide that said distro is the biggest piece of junk on the int0rweb.

What it comes down to is: if you try to install something and it doesn't suit your needs, or drives you up the wall with issues after you've given it a fair shot, just move on. No big deal. Try the next one you're interested in. It's not like you have a lack of options with Linux distros. And at the end of the day, don't go around flaming distros that you had problems installing because for every person who hates that distro, there are probably ten others who love it and have had very few problems with it (Debian is certainly no exception to that rule).

[/rant]

So many Newbies here have mentioned their first Linux Install as being Debian... atleast 3-4 of them. Add me to that list. I didn't even know that there existed an Operating system in this world other than Windows. I went on to buy a "Damien" CD but the guy was pretty nice and gave me a 7 CD set of Debian Woody (for a very cheap price of 200 Indian Rs... just about 4$ US).

The one thing that I did right, which I'm pretty sure by now you haven't, is that I spent a complete day reading the documentation on the CD and understanding how everything under linux works, especially under Debian. Only then did I plunge into the install... took me 3 days to get everything running, including my printer, display, CD Writer and Sound. But I found stuff about my computer that I never knew before. And during my second install attempt at a friends place it took me exactly 20 Minutes to set up a base system. Thats the average time that it has taken me ever since. And I'm not even close to being a Debian Amateur, forget being an Expert.

And once you get addicted to apt-get, I'd really like to see you migrate to another distro (RPM installs and hair loss happen concurrently :p )

Its just that you need to read documentation and not expect that the computer will do wonders for you whenever you screw up like that.

I have also done a Netinstall... Its nothing different from a normal CD install except that the software repositories are online and not on CD. Its just as easy if you read the complete docs and just as difficult if you dont.

Really, Debian doesn't sport a "Not for Newbies" tag, it sports a "Not for people who want to be spoon fed and can't read the fine Documentation" tag.

Its OK to not like the Distro... just don't flame it just cos it doesn't suit you.
Siddhesh

you know Rotwang, I initially suspected you to be a troll and being here posting just to get into fights with Linux users, and you JUST confurmed my suspicions by coming back and posting insults when all of us is trying to help you. *BLEEEEEP* you, useless troll. You don't like Linux, Debian, Mandrake? Go the @%$& away then. Are we holding a gun to your head to use Linux?

So many irrational statements, so little time.

1. No, I'm not trolling. I think the biggest consequence of trolling has been that people can bail out of any legitimate argument by claiming that the other one is trolling. But at least I can't call that stement irrational, although I know it's wrong.

2. You think I'm trying to "start Fights with Linux users"? I am a linux user. Show me ONE time on this thread- hell, on any forum of this web site where I've bashed Linux. Do a search on my name. If I "don't like Linix", then why have I posted so many legit questions (and even a few answers) on this site? And for that matter, why did I post more anti-windows analogies than anyone on this thread:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...177#post828177

3. Where did you come up with me not liking Mandrake? Are you sure you're spouting flames at the right guy? Maybe do some research before you drop your bombs.

4. When did I post an insult? The only thing I've insulted is Debian's installer. Should I apologize to the Debian installer so that it's feelings aren't hurt?