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Old 08-16-2005, 12:50 PM   #16
zborgerd
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Quote:
Originally posted by tuxdev
You didn't ask for any have you? I have already explained what I said cause that last post was just trying to reword my post before that. You obviously did not read my entire post. If you think Slackware is so fundamentally bad, why do you use it?
If I thought Slackware was bad, I wouldn't put a desktop upon it. We love Slackware and do what we have to do to put a usable GNOME desktop upon it, but I think I've already stated this. Now, you're simply trying to beat around the bush because you can't back up what you've stated. Maybe you've never used Dropline GNOME before? If you have, you most certainly could offer specifics.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 01:20 PM   #17
tuxdev
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No I have not, cause there are way to many horror stories to ignore. I like freedom, and Dropline severly limits that. Once you install it, you can never do anything else without even more pain. That is what makes Dropline so bad. And the rules I was refering to was the principle that all things in the system should do only one extremely small task, like the way the X server should only deal with putting pixels on the display, not what. Dropline does way too much for a Desktop Enviroment.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 01:23 PM   #18
zborgerd
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Quote:
Originally posted by tuxdev
No I have not, cause there are way to many horror stories to ignore. I like freedom, and Dropline severly limits that. Once you install it, you can never do anything else without even more pain. That is what makes Dropline so bad. And the rules I was refering to was the principle that all things in the system should do only one extremely small task, like the way the X server should only deal with putting pixels on the display, not what. Dropline does way too much for a Desktop Enviroment.
I rest my case.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 01:32 PM   #19
tuxdev
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My not using Dropline does not mean I do not know what I am talking about. You have not answered any of my concerns about the fact that Dropline does in fact break the principle of software modularity. Software modularity is one of the reasons why Linux is so powerful. Not following that principle severely weakens the system and leads to .so hell.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 01:38 PM   #20
Slayk
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Quote:
Originally posted by tuxdev
My not using Dropline does not mean I do not know what I am talking about. You have not answered any of my concerns about the fact that Dropline does in fact break the principle of software modularity. Software modularity is one of the reasons why Linux is so powerful. Not following that principle severely weakens the system and leads to .so hell.
Forgive me for butting in, but how can you grasp exactly what a system with Dropline is exactly like when you don't use it?

Also, as far as I've seen (I've used Dropline for a year and a half now), Dropline does nothing to limit the flexability of Slackware . As for 'Principle of Software Modularity', I've never heard of such a thing? Care to explain, since apparently I slept through that portion of Software Engineering? I mean, I can't say whether or not the Dropline guys would be guilty of breakingit if it doesn't actually exist as a formal principle.

[edit]
Ahh, here we are:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=re...j7ArKYYI6s4asH
I'm not sure how that relates to Dropline making a better Xorg package or including PAM, though.

Last edited by Slayk; 08-16-2005 at 01:43 PM.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 01:45 PM   #21
tuxdev
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It is the principle that X servers should only deal with and care about how specific pixels get onto the screen, The WM should only deal with how windows are placed and what borders them (with a few optional things like a menu and taskbar). The application should only care about what it is supposed to be doing. And all of the components never mess with any other component because the other components should be "black boxes". You did pay attention to the part of Software Engineering dealling with black boxes, code modules and data hiding, right?

EDIT: Dropline as a proper Gnome DE module should not do anything other than DE specific stuff. What the DE handles and what the WM handles is not well defined, but the DE should most definitely not be drawing stuff on the screen by directly accessing the hardware or doing anything along those lines. Dropline simply messes with the system too much and you are in a world of hurt if you try to do anything different once you have commited by installing it.

Last edited by tuxdev; 08-16-2005 at 01:53 PM.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 01:46 PM   #22
zborgerd
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Quote:
Originally posted by tuxdev
My not using Dropline does not mean I do not know what I am talking about. You have not answered any of my concerns about the fact that Dropline does in fact break the principle of software modularity. Software modularity is one of the reasons why Linux is so powerful. Not following that principle severely weakens the system and leads to .so hell.
Of course it means that you don't know what you are talking about. You've never used it. What is your gripe about software modularity? Dropline packages replace Slackware's own GNOME packages *verbatim*. It's all done through pkgtool and uses the standard Slackware naming convention. It's completely modular. Do you really think we'd do it any other way? They're built the *same way* as any other Slackware package.

Oh. That's right. You never took the time to research it or use it. You just "invented" these concepts.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 01:47 PM   #23
Slayk
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Yeah, I'm reasonably familiar with OO design principles in that regard. I really don't see how that fits into this issue, though.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 01:56 PM   #24
tuxdev
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I may have not took the time personally, but I have read many threads having to do with the problems Dropline brings in and their inability to undo it. If Dropline didn't put their fingers in so many pies, there would probably a 90% reduction of problems assoiciated with it.

Last edited by tuxdev; 08-16-2005 at 02:01 PM.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 02:10 PM   #25
Slayk
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Quote:
Originally posted by tuxdev
EDIT: Dropline as a proper Gnome DE module should not do anything other than DE specific stuff. What the DE handles and what the WM handles is not well defined, but the DE should most definitely not be drawing stuff on the screen by directly accessing the hardware or doing anything along those lines. Dropline simply messes with the system too much and you are in a world of hurt if you try to do anything different once you have commited by installing it.
Uh, the role of the WM is to MANAGE WINDOWS. That's why it's called a window manager. It puts up decorations, gives the user a way to close the application, and lets you move the window around and resize it (or not, in the case of ratpoison :-D) The GUI toolkit is responsible for calling the underlying X functions to draw something, which in this case would be GTK calling GDK calling the underlying X stuff. Where in this is an argument about how Dropline packages GNOME for Slackware? At best it's a (horribly misled and honestly just plain wrong) critique on the role of WM vs DE.

But OH NO it is messing with the system by 'directly acessing the hardware'.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 02:14 PM   #26
Slayk
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Quote:
Originally posted by tuxdev
I may have not took the time personally, but I have read many threads having to do with the problems Dropline brings in and their inability to undo it. If Dropline didn't put their fingers in so many pies, there would probably a 90% reduction of problems assoiciated with it.
I've read many threads on how BSD is dying.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 02:20 PM   #27
zborgerd
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slayk
I've read many threads on how BSD is dying.
Darn. You took mine.

I read it on Slashdot. Netcraft confirms. Dropline GNOME (and BSD) are dead. It must be true!

Escuse me. I have to hop in my flying car to find Bigfoot.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 02:24 PM   #28
tuxdev
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I am not even talking about the role of the WM or DE. Just that a DE is at least a WM, and handles stuff above the WM, not below. Dropline replacing X is Dropline messing with something that it is not supposed to mess with as a WM/DE. If the Software Engineers ignore the black box principles, why should the programmers care about coding in a nice, modular fashion. Dropline is simply not supposed to mess with X. If X.org wants to put Dropline's "enhancements" in then that is their desision and if they don't Dropline should just live with it and be properly compatible with the real Xserver instead of creating their own. Dropline should be just as painless as any other WM/DE.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 02:25 PM   #29
tuxdev
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I have read it here and many, many, times. The OP were not lying about their problems, for sure.
 
Old 08-16-2005, 05:00 PM   #30
Eternal_Newbie
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I think we are getting away from the origional issue. What is the best upgrade from vanilla Slackware 10.1 Gnome?

It can probably be summarised like this:
There are three major alternatives, Dropline , Gware and Freerock (and several other Gnome releases for Slackware).

Dropline is really good-looking, but replaces central parts of Slackware, so you are effectively running Dropline, not Slackware. It also seems to have higher system requirements. If you can accept that, go for it

Gware and Freerock arn't as good-looking as Dropline but try to be less intrusive. If you prefer that approach, try one of them.
You can always 'borrow' the Dropline themes from a friend who runs it

zborgerd, I don't expect you to curry my favour, I just don't like being treated like an imbecile. It does you no favours to assume that everyone is opposed to you. It tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy
 
  


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