Will you switch to Wayland?

Richard Cranium · 07-07-2013, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bartgymnast

People, where did I ever write that it would be more a apple or windows clone?

I wrote about user experience.
If you look at both apple and microsoft desktop machines, user experience is about smoother graphics, faster reactions. easier extendable.

so stop quoting about look-alike or cloning.
See below wiki about User Experience or follow the link to find out more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_experience

User experience (UX) involves a person's emotions about using a particular product, system or service. User experience highlights the experiential, affective, meaningful and valuable aspects of human-computer interaction and product ownership. Additionally, it includes a person’s perceptions of the practical aspects such as utility, ease of use and efficiency of the system. User experience is subjective in nature because it is about individual perception and thought with respect to the system. User experience is dynamic as it is constantly modified over time due to changing circumstances and new innovations.

ISO 9241-210[1] defines user experience as "a person's perceptions and responses that result from the use or anticipated use of a product, system or service". According to the ISO definition user experience includes all the users' emotions, beliefs, preferences, perceptions, physical and psychological responses, behaviors and accomplishments that occur before, during and after use. The ISO also list three factors that influence user experience: system, user and the context of use.

Some of us view the windows and mac "user experience" as akin to swimming in a pool of liquid dog feces.

astrogeek · 07-07-2013, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Cranium

Some of us view the windows and mac "user experience" as akin to swimming in a pool of liquid dog feces.

What he said... +1

Skaperen · 07-07-2013, 01:49 AM

I am willing to try it. If it can work better for managing access to the display for things like virtual machines also running X or Wayland, then I'm all for it. My goal is being able to do "one chord" screen/display switching among MANY (60+) workspaces/desktops and full display processes like VM engines.

dive · 07-07-2013, 03:01 PM

TobiSGD: Thanks for the detailed info.

I would like to know how it would support older games like the original Unreal Tournament (made in 1999), which I still write mods for. I'm guessing that since it uses OpenGL there wouldn't be a problem, but it'd be nice to find out one way or the other.

I vote to switch when Pat/Slackware switches. Also, as some of you may know, I'm a devout fluxboxer so I guess when fluxbox supports it too that'd be optimal for me.

lpallard · 07-07-2013, 09:44 PM

For all I'm concerned, things are still too fragile even after decades of development.. I recently upgraded packages on a machine using the "official" upgrade method, hosed half of it by doing so. Another machine just upgraded after perhaps a year not updating, the nvidia driver started shitting all over the place, I had to install the new version and now I'm stuck with horrible video issues (choppy playback, visual tear, etc). Instead of moving forward, for the time being, I will restore the clone I made about 8 months ago, when things were snappy and working well..

With other distros, if their package manager is smart enough to manage package versions and inter-dependencies, then its just a matter of upgrading/downgrading, and only bandwidth usage, on slackware since everything is very basic and manual, no need for me to toast one of my machines once more...

No im not planning upgrading or moving to wayland...

When Pat decides to move slackware toward wayland, it'll have to be so transparent to me that I wouldnt know.. Well, it'll have to be AS GOOD as X is now.. Otherwise, Im out.

ReaperX7 · 07-08-2013, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Cranium

Some of us view the windows and mac "user experience" as akin to swimming in a pool of liquid dog feces.

I wouldn't say that ill of Windows due to the fact I understand it fundamentally. I akin it to swimming in a pool of overly-chlorinated water that tends to burn the eyes a bit and leave you feels a bit dried out afterwards, whereas OSX is like diving into a sewage retention pond filled with whatever the city dumped in it. BSD and Linux is like a natural river and stream in the mountains, though I do suspect something upstream in Linux's river is causing the fish to start to die off.

Wayland should be transparent in transition, as it's supported to support all of the classic X.Org features.

ttk · 07-08-2013, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReaperX7

Wayland should be transparent in transition, as it's supported to support all of the classic X.Org features.

.. except network transparency :-(

http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html#heading_toc_j_8

TobiSGD · 07-08-2013, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttk

.. except network transparency :-(

http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html#heading_toc_j_8

Which doesn't even work correctly anymore with X11 in many cases: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blo...-trancparency/

serafean · 07-08-2013, 08:59 AM

If any of you has 45 minutes to spare, here is a very nice talk about Wayland by one of its developers (also an X developer). He very nicely explains why Wayland was a necessity. He also explains how the X network transparency is a myth nowadays (*gasp*) and how it might work better with wayland.

ttk · 07-08-2013, 09:55 AM

Hmm .. I semi-regularly run graphical apps (firefox, xfig, xpaint) on my desktop from my laptop. X11's network transparency is working fine here.

jtsn · 07-08-2013, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TobiSGD

Which doesn't even work correctly anymore with X11 in many cases: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blo...-trancparency/

I can see the reason:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Gräßlin

I think the DBus design decisions are good and correct.

I don't have any issues with X11 network transparency. It depends on applications. The crappy ones I don't need and I don't use, that includes KDE.

BTW: RDP mimics X11 the for GDI and is seen as mandatory in the industry. Transferring bitmaps over the network (like VNC does) is a thing from the stone age.

TobiSGD · 07-08-2013, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtsn

I can see the reason:

I don't have any issues with X11 network transparency. It depends on applications. The crappy ones I don't need and I don't use, that includes KDE.

BTW: RDP mimics X11 the for GDI and is seen as mandatory in the industry. Transferring bitmaps over the network (like VNC does) is a thing from the stone age.

If you don't only use Motif applications the Xserver acts quite similar to VNC, actually, since no modern toolkit lets the Xserver render their content. You actually have no network transparency, but are already transferring bitmaps. Also explained in the video linked by serafean. Nice watch, by the way, thanks for the link.

qweasd · 07-08-2013, 11:10 PM

I managed to build wayland + weston and run it over KMS, with no X present. Also XWayland (X compatibility layer). Saw a few crashes, but the compositing quality is superb. Screenshot here:

http://melikamp.com/pictures/screens...land.png.shtml

ReaperX7 · 07-08-2013, 11:16 PM

Qweasd, did you find any specific noticeable differences in how XWayland operates compared to the standard X.Org server such as commands, setup, desktop environment support, etc. other than the Compositing?

qweasd · 07-08-2013, 11:32 PM

Can't tell you much, only played with it for a few hours. The setup is zero-like: it just goes into Weston, which listens for X clients, if any. Weston itself is quite Spartan, but very smooth. I am sure I could run whatever in a full-screened xnest, I'll be checking on that. I also want to run some time benchmarks to compare xwayland with plain x.org, but time is something I ain't got a lot of