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Old 08-21-2018, 09:36 AM   #16
ArchArael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montagdude View Post
Are you going to share your own responses to your questions in post #1 then?
You are right. Sorry for not doing that in the opening post.


1. I stopped using Slackware because in the long run compiling and maintaining my own packages was time and energy consuming. I heard a lot about dependency hell but after switching I virtually never had an issue. Although I missed Slackware and tried it again release after release every time I would remembered why I switched in the first place. I admit that from one release of Ubuntu to another I had some issues and that Slackware is more stable, I miss that very much. But since I was used to fix my own issues in Slackware I usually manage with Ubuntu as well.

2. I actually would like to switch back and I have tried a couple of times. I do feel at home when I am using Slackware because I have used it for many years. I like that it is modular and easy to build upon. But then when I need a program I have to use sbopkg. The updates of these packages are then another chore to attend to. I guess that if I had Slackware with all the packages available in Ubuntu it would be perfect.

3. I have switched to Ubuntu although I have tried and used for a couple of months many other distros before settling down. I have picked it because it is well supported and recompiling packages is still an option. It is easy enough to do it. One thing I do find annoying is that there are incompatibilities between releases. Every time I upgrade I have to spend some time fixing my environment since I only use some of the gnome-system-daemons.

Last edited by ArchArael; 08-21-2018 at 09:44 AM.
 
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:44 AM   #17
Darth Vader
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchArael View Post
You are right. Sorry for not doing that in the opening post.


1. I stopped using Slackware because in the long run compiling and maintaining my own packages was time and energy consuming. I heard a lot about dependency hell but after switching I virtually never had an issue. Although I missed Slackware and tried it again release after release every time I would remembered why I switched in the first place. I admit that from one release of Ubuntu to another I had some issues and that Slackware is more stable, I miss that very much. But since I was used to fix my own issues in Slackware I usually manage with Ubuntu as well.

2. I actually would like to switch back and I have tried a couple of times. I do feel at home when I am using Slackware because I have used it for many years. I like that it is modular and easy to build upon. But then when I need a program I have to use sbopkg. The updates of these packages are then another chore to attend to. I guess that if I had Slackware with all the packages available in Ubuntu it would be perfect.

3. I have switched to Ubuntu although I have tried and used for a couple of months many other distros before settling down. I have picked it because it is well supported and recompiling packages is still an option. It is easy enough to do it. One thing I do find annoying is that there are incompatibilities between releases. Every time I upgrade I have to spend some time fixing my environment since I only use the GNOME subsystems.
And how's your own experience with systemd on Ubuntu?

It acts like a Skynet with its own mind which stole the moneys from your credit cards or even worst, it eaten your puppies?

I am just curious to hear a first hand experience from someone who's "just user" (and not a developer), because in this forum they tell so many scary stories about it...

Last edited by Darth Vader; 08-21-2018 at 09:51 AM.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 09:56 AM   #18
ArchArael
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Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
And how's your own experience with systemd?

It acts like a Skynet with its own mind which stole the moneys from your credit cards or even worst, it eaten your puppies?

I am just curious to see a first hand experience from an usual user (and not a developer), because in this forum they tell so many scary stories about it...
I actually didn't have issues with systemd. The transition was not that painful. I had to learn some new commands, mainly how to use systemctl and journalctl properly. The only thing I don't like about systemd is the binary logs although you could reroute the logs to a different utility.

What was a pain in the butt is the last three releases had major GNOME changes and that caused breakage in my UI setting. Libinput was another big hindrance for long. My touchpad would stop working from update to update.
 
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:52 AM   #19
hitest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchArael View Post
  1. Why did you stop using Slackware?
  2. Are you going to switch back again and why?
  3. Which distribution did you switch to and why?
1. I haven't stopped. I've been a happy Slacker since 2004 (version 10.0). Posting these types of questions in the official Slackware forum may be interpreted as click-bait. I suspect that's not your intention.

2. Not an issue.

3. I admire Debian a lot, but, have not switched to it. I run OpenBSD on a partition on one of my Slackware boxes.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 11:39 AM   #20
mralk3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchArael View Post
  1. Why did you stop using Slackware?
  2. Are you going to switch back again and why?
  3. Which distribution did you switch to and why?
1. It is difficult to compile all the packages I need and maintain them across multiple machines. Sure I could set up a virtual machine running Slackware ARM, but I do not want to. The machines I have difficulty maintaining on my LAN are three Raspberry Pis. One acts as my router, one as my NAS, and the third as my Git and Trac server. I also do not like that there is no official support for the Raspberry Pi in Slackware. Many of the issues I ran into required that I figure out a solution on my own. I like to run Slackware-14.2 on these Pis and 14.2 only has soft float available. I won't run Slackware-current on a production machine like a public facing router.

I've also switched both my laptops (Dell Inspiron N4010 / ZaReason Strata 7440) to another distribution because I don't have the time to maintain Slackware. I am attending a training program to get my CompTIA A+, Linux+, and possibly Net+ certifications. I would rather spend my free time doing other things. I like to run Slackware-current on my laptops, however I find the time commitment to be too much to maintain -current on two different laptops and still get my school work done.

2. I will eventually switch my main laptop (the ZaReason) back to Slackware after 15.0 comes out. I think I probably will leave the Pis as is and not switch back to Slackware due to the convenience factor. The spare laptop (Dell) is a testing / backup machine so I regularly install different distributions, including Slackware.

3. The Linux+ exam materials are based on Fedora, so for the last month I was running Fedora 28. Sure you can study for Linux+ with just about any distribution, but I found it an issue to have to figure out the differences between Slackware and Red Hat distributions to do my school work. Just yesterday I moved both my laptops from Fedora to CentOS 7 due to the fact that there are stability issues on Fedora. The Raspberry Pi's have been running CentOS 7 for a few months now.

I chose CentOS because it comes with SELinux, Auditd, PAM, OpenSCAP, and SCAP workbench. I find using SCAP workbench a very convenient way to locally and remotely (ssh) audit my systems after a fresh installation. SCAP workbench provides automatic remediation so you can apply the changes based on the OpenSCAP profile of your choice- big time saver. Once everything is configured I monitor each machine with daily email reports using the aureport command. The kickstart files are very helpful too. While I do not currently make use of kerberos, I am thinking of doing so soon.

All of these tools/areas I mentioned are missing from Slackware. I love Slackware because of its stability. Slackware is even more stable than CentOS. You have to use the right tool for the job. I still maintain Slackware (x86, x86_64 14.2 / -current) virtual machines on my ZaReason so I can continue to contribute to Slackware.
 
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Old 08-21-2018, 11:43 AM   #21
Didier Spaier
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I stopped using Slackware as my main system because I now use Slint, which is based on Slackware. I still run Slackware in a VM whenever needed, and on occasion propose changes (hopefully enhancements) to it, that most of the time I have tested first in Slint then in Slackware.

I am very grateful for the work of Pat & team and hope that Slackware will be doing well for years to come.

Last edited by Didier Spaier; 08-21-2018 at 11:45 AM.
 
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Old 08-21-2018, 11:58 AM   #22
ArchArael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitest View Post
Posting these types of questions in the official Slackware forum may be interpreted as click-bait. I suspect that's not your intention.
That is absolutely not my intention. I wanted to know other people's motivations because I have been struggling with this for a while now. On one side Ubuntu does everything I need and I have everything at apt-get reach but things break from time to tome. On the other side I do miss using Slackware and the stability it provides but compiling is time consuming and a chore.

I would like to know how other users like myself who have dropped Slackware are coping with the change.
 
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:11 PM   #23
mralk3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchArael View Post
On one side Ubuntu does everything I need and I have everything at apt-get reach but things break from time to tome. On the other side I do miss using Slackware and the stability it provides but compiling is time consuming and a chore.

I would like to know how other users like myself who have dropped Slackware are coping with the change.
If you are using Ubuntu or Slackware as a regular user there is no need to compile or recompile anything. Both systems offer the same functionality out of the box. You just have to use the defaults. For people who need to extend or customize their systems Slackware is time consuming. The initial customization of a Slackware system takes effort, but once everything is in place, you set it and forget it.

I personally do recompile packages for all distributions as needed. As an example I rebuilt the dnsmasq package on my CentOS router to enable DNSSEC. My point was not that you shouldn't need to compile code, its that you shouldn't need to compile EVERYTHING you need to do your job. As an example, I found that I need support for SELinux, which requires PAM, this is a show stopper on Slackware.

Please do not confuse my response with someone who just wants to apt-get install everything. If I could get SELinux, Auditd, and PAM, the rest of what I mentioned can easily be replicated on Slackware.

Last edited by mralk3; 08-21-2018 at 12:13 PM.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 12:14 PM   #24
blancamolinos
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First, sorry for my english.

1-Why did you stop using Slackware?

I stopped using linux. I don't understand the influence of freedesktop people with dbus, polkit, consolekit and all that s**t over the linux distributions. Another problem are the continous changes in the differents kernels and the growth speed of the code between new kernels (in the order 200 thousand new lines and there is a new kernel each two or three months). There are varius stable kernels but it is difficult (very poor documentation) know what is different between this kernels. When Slackware included pulseaudio (another freedesktop recommendation) in 14.2 version, I said myself: Stop, it is time to look at other solution. Almost all linux distributions have the same problem than Slackware plus the systemd thing so i look at BSD world that for me was unknown. After a little research I chose OpenBSD.

2-Are you going to switch back again and why?

If I need to do something that is not possible or inefficient in OpenBSD now (by example, to run a postgresql server with more that 32 gbytes cache) i would choose Slackware, because is the only linux distribution that i respect.

3-Which distribution did you switch to and why?

OpenBSD. Because it is KISS. There is a clear separation between OS and external packages. The X Window is considerated part of the OS. The documentation is awesome so as the care that the developers put in it (it is forbidden to change a man page in the stable version). The OpenBSD website, spartan in appaerance (as the Slackare one), contains almost all the information about the project (indeed the website changes are in the CVS repository). The ports (slackbuild equivalent in Slackware) are included in the CVS repository also. The OpenBSD developers are proactive, if there is a piece of the OS that is too complicated or insecure they write other (LibreSSL, OpenSMTPD, OpenNTPD). The change between stable versions are approximately constants (one each 6 months).
 
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:31 PM   #25
montagdude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blancamolinos View Post
First, sorry for my english.

1-Why did you stop using Slackware?

I stopped using linux. I don't understand the influence of freedesktop people with dbus, polkit, consolekit and all that s**t over the linux distributions. Another problem are the continous changes in the differents kernels and the growth speed of the code between new kernels (in the order 200 thousand new lines and there is a new kernel each two or three months). There are varius stable kernels but it is difficult (very poor documentation) know what is different between this kernels. When Slackware included pulseaudio (another freedesktop recommendation) in 14.2 version, I said myself: Stop, it is time to look at other solution. Almost all linux distributions have the same problem than Slackware plus the systemd thing so i look at BSD world that for me was unknown. After a little research I chose OpenBSD.

2-Are you going to switch back again and why?

If I need to do something that is not possible or inefficient in OpenBSD now (by example, to run a postgresql server with more that 32 gbytes cache) i would choose Slackware, because is the only linux distribution that i respect.

3-Which distribution did you switch to and why?

OpenBSD. Because it is KISS. There is a clear separation between OS and external packages. The X Window is considerated part of the OS. The documentation is awesome so as the care that the developers put in it (it is forbidden to change a man page in the stable version). The OpenBSD website, spartan in appaerance (as the Slackare one), contains almost all the information about the project (indeed the website changes are in the CVS repository). The ports (slackbuild equivalent in Slackware) are included in the CVS repository also. The OpenBSD developers are proactive, if there is a piece of the OS that is too complicated or insecure they write other (LibreSSL, OpenSMTPD, OpenNTPD). The change between stable versions are approximately constants (one each 6 months).
I played with FreeBSD in a VM before coming to Slackware. I really liked it in a VM but learned that the hardware support would be poor for my laptop. Granted, the BSDs are not all the same, but AFAIK they're all way behind Linux in the hardware support department. That to me was a much bigger deal than any philosophical considerations. I believe I eventually tried Slackware because it was recommended as the Linux distribution closest to "true Unix."
 
Old 08-21-2018, 12:33 PM   #26
upnort
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Interesting thread. I do not see the post as trolling or click-bait, especially in light of recent threads where so many people offered Pat suggestions about improving Slackware. I hope this thread can be used as a continuation of that process.

Why did you stop using Slackware?

At home I never stopped. I never used Slackware at work.

Are you going to switch back again and why?

At home I have no plans of leaving Slackware. At work I have no plans of using Slackware.

Which distribution did you switch to and why?

At home I use Slackware exclusively. At work, for servers we use CentOS, Debian/Proxmox, Ubuntu Server. For desktops we are starting to use Ubuntu MATE.

The office workstations are Windows and likely will remain that way because of 1) an inescapable dependency on QuickBooks, and 2) the office workers are competent at what they do but are not computer savvy at all.

Servers and technician computers are a different story.

Currently we are in the process of migrating field laptops from Windows 7 (EOL 2020) to Ubuntu MATE.

Much of my support at work is remote. I use an Ubuntu MATE VM for that remote support because the VM was designed for other users at work and I maintain the VM. IOW, a case of satisfying common needs and not just my needs.

The decision to use Ubuntu MATE was mine. Why not Slackware?

In the business world, the old beat up adage that "time is money" plays a huge role in decisions.

* Large scale upstream support. The company owner sees computer as tools. Agree or disagree, there is name recognition and perception. Nobody at work has heard of Slackware but they have heard of Ubuntu, Red Hat, and possibly Debian. If something happens to me the owner needs to find large scale support for the computers.

* Enterprise support. Slackware is not designed with the enterprise user in mind. That isn't to say a savvy user can't use Slackware in the enterprise. The issue is not so much PAM/Kerberos. The difference is that the other distros are intentionally designed to support enterprise users.

* Although using a terminal is not a big deal, the owner expects a lot of pointy-clicky. I can fine tune any distro and I have learned how to greatly remove typical Ubuntu "bloat." Yet if something happens to me then the remaining employees and owner must support the computers. They expect pointy-clicky for most things.

* Dependency checking. Everybody at work are computer users. Computers are tools -- a means to an end. They expect to install something called a package and be done. They have no concept of and no patience for something called dependency checking.

* A large package binary repository. The Ubuntu repository system is huge and then add PPAs.

* systemd has been a non-issue in all of my support work. That said, I dislike the design and prefer an init script approach to booting my systems.

I have been compiling my own packages for Slackware for 15 years or more. Version 10.0 was the first Slackware release I decided to dig in, although I had been tinkering with other distros before then. The lack of built-in dependency checking never has been an issue for me. That said, I much enjoy the huge Ubuntu repository and dependency checking. "apt install whatever" and I am done. While I still prefer to use the command line to perform updates and package searches with all Linux systems I use and support, the fact that a desktop GUI package manager exists is important to many users.

The people with whom I work are smart, competent computer users, and good people. They just see computers as tools only. When they go home for the day computers are not a significant part of their life. Agree or disagree, computers are expected to "just work" with a minimum of fuss. The current Slackware design requires more sweat equity than most people will embrace.

If I had to abandon Slackware I likely would use Ubuntu MATE. I have streamlined the "bloat" removal process as well as streamlined the desktop configuration. I can configure an Ubuntu MATE system the way I prefer and not what upstream maintainers and developers think I need. The huge repository system and dependency checking is convenient.

I personally much enjoy Slackware and Slackware fits my needs of what I want my computers to do. My perception and needs do not match those of the owner or employees at work. I do not expect the Slackware design to change and have no arguments why that should happen. Conversely, I think something like Salix is a first step forward toward creating a more "user friendly" distro based on Slackware. Yet Salix requires a degree of computer savvy that many users will not embrace. And Salix is not designed for the enterprise user either, not to forget that even with slapt-get/gslapt, the repository selection of Ubuntu and PPAs far exceeds all of the combined Slackware repos.

I get to use Slackware at home. I get to avoid Windows at work.
 
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:39 PM   #27
keithpeter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blancamolinos View Post
I don't understand the influence of freedesktop people with dbus, polkit, consolekit and all that s**t over the linux distributions.
Everyone should use what they want to use, and we should all try 'walking a mile in the other one's shoes' now and again. However, try running

Code:
# pkg_add firefox-esr
on a fresh OpenBSD install and watch your old friends come back to greet you.

I find Slackware sufficient for my modest needs as a clueless end user, but I do keep a moderately usable desktop OpenBSD install on on laptop for giggles. I do miss a bare window manager on top of a kernel and userland, but, people want desktop conveniences.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 01:59 PM   #28
animeresistance
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Hi there !

Interesting questions.

Quote:
1. Why did you stop using Slackware?
I haven't stopped using Slackware it is my heavy duty workhorse, my spearhead, etc., but I do have 2 more distros (Debian and Ubuntu) and FreeBSD in my PC.


Quote:
2. Are you going to switch back again and why?
As I said before I haven't stopped using Slackware


Quote:
3. Which distribution did you switch to and why?
I used the Debians to work with the M$ Kinect, to capture users' skeleton data to make my experiments for my PhD thesis (I haven't found a way to make the M$ Kinect sensors work in Slackware, but one day, one day ), after that, I just use R to make the data analysis in Slackware and to write my thesis. I use the FreeBSD just for fun, it is very entertaining.


Greetings
 
Old 08-21-2018, 02:17 PM   #29
fatmac
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My first ever distro was a version of Slack, about 1998, then I found & tried RedHat & Debian.

The ease at which I could install extra software on Debian just made it my go to distro.

I still use Debian based distros to this very day; my only gripe is systemd - I don't like it, & don't use it if I can help it.

I also use OpenBSD on occassions, just to keep my hand in, in case Linux goes totally over to systemd/pulseaudio, etc.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 03:08 PM   #30
ArchArael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mralk3 View Post
If you are using Ubuntu or Slackware as a regular user there is no need to compile or recompile anything. Both systems offer the same functionality out of the box. You just have to use the defaults. For people who need to extend or customize their systems Slackware is time consuming. The initial customization of a Slackware system takes effort, but once everything is in place, you set it and forget it.
Then I am not a regular user because I have recompiled packages for both distributions many times. In Ubuntu recompiling happens when you need a feature which was not enabled in the stock package. In Slackware this happens every time you need a package not in the stock Slackware. Also, the initial customization takes effort but so does updating those packages, unless you opt to not to update them which is also not good. I don't think you can just forget about those packages.

Slackware's stability comes with the price, the price is your own time and energy. I am still trying to understand if it is worth it or not.
 
  


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