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-   -   What is the downside of installing Dlackware systemd? (https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/what-is-the-downside-of-installing-dlackware-systemd-4175639629/)

Regnad Kcin 10-02-2018 11:04 PM

What is the downside of installing Dlackware systemd?
 
I am considering going up the learning curve for Dlackware so that I can run software that requires systemd.

I have very little interest in a Gnome-y Linux. I do have a copy of Ubuntu 16 Xynical Xenophobe on another partition and I dont like it much. I didnt like Kubuntu. I keep an extra copy of slackware64 on another partition in case I do something stupid (like forget to run elilo, etc) and break my daily driver slackware. I have Ubuntu there in case I absolutely positively need to run some software that requires systemd. I always go back to Slackware. That might not be because I am a privileged white grumpy cis gender male or a strfkr. I like the way that Slackware just works and the fact that I can see what Slackware is doing. It is also very quick.

Lynyrd Skynerd Poettering et al may be jerks but one could say that the proprietors of SBo are pedants. I havent quit using SBo as a result of not liking someone's attitude that I dont understand. PulseAudio doesnt break my computer and actually I kind of like pulseaudio despite the pops and gloops when one moves the volume controller.

I will probably give Dlackware systemd a chance on yet another partition install of Slackware. There isnt much documentation.
I am wondering what negative experience others have had with the Dlackware systemd? Does Plasma5 run on a Dlackware-modded Slackware64 -current or will I be stuck with running xfce or some other gnome-y dm such as cinnamon, etc? Finding nemo wasnt a joyful thing for me.

What is the downside?

Yes, I can find out these things by trying them myself but some background may be helpful.

TommyC7 10-03-2018 01:08 AM

First, I'd like to say that I have no experience at all running Dlackware.

However, I do run CentOS 7 (which uses systemd of course), and from my little experience of playing with Ubuntu on a VM, a lot of the systemd-specific things seem to be the same, so this is my input (but truth be told I have no idea if it applies to Dlackware):

1. Do NOT mix iptables (or nftables if that's what you use) with firewalld.

Use one and only one of those exclusively. Use firewalld if you don't serve a lot of customers (i.e. you're not sending/receiving a lot of data daily).

I do recommend firewalld for few customers & very simple rules.

The reason is firewalld tends to add more rules to do the same thing than {ip,nf}tables would. People at this point will probably say "firewalld is just another frontend for netfilter, it's not an iptables wrapper so your idea of 'rules' is wrong." and that's what is preached but not necessarily practiced (it's a bit complicated and I don't want to get into the details).

2. You have to learn service files

In Slackware, FreeBSD, OpenBSD and even until CentOS/RHEL 6, you had to know some shell scripting. Despite the init system differences, you started/stopped a service by using shell scripting.

In systemd you use service files which can also handle auto-mounting.

I guess some pro-simplicity people would be against this since some of these things can be handled by /etc/fstab, but the pro-systemd people would argue that you can't auto-mount say, a USB you plug in after the system boots up.

Also note, since projects (like nginx) on SlackBuilds.org are specifically for Slackware and not Dlackware, you won't have service files for them.

3. journald

I hate this program even on CentOS/RHEL 7 so if you have better luck with it than I do, then I guess this one isn't necessarily a "disadvantage".

journald has a way to send its logs to rsyslog which is what I chose to do because of the previous point.

=====

I can't think of anything else at the moment. Hope this helped.

montagdude 10-03-2018 07:41 AM

To add to what TommyC7 said:
  1. Dlackware does not have service files available for every service that exists in Slackware. The focus is a desktop system. For example, there is no service file for crond. However, you can usually still start such things manually if you need them.
  2. If you want to get rid of it and go back to a stock Slackware system, you have to reinstall.
  3. I know TommyC7 already mentioned journald, but it deserves a second mention. It sucks.
Regarding your question about desktop environments, if you are just planning to install the systemd stuff, after booting it should still run your regular session manager. Even if you also install Gnome, GDM should pick up existing xinit scripts, so you should be able to still run any window manager or DE you already have installed.

Regnad Kcin 10-03-2018 10:47 AM

One serious downside is that it appears to be a quite difficult install!

BradReed 10-03-2018 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 5910463)
I am considering going up the learning curve for Dlackware so that I can run software that requires systemd.

I'm curious what software "requires" systemd and is unable to be run without it. By all means give systemd a try if you wish though.

sevendogsbsd 10-03-2018 11:06 AM

Pretty sure Gnome 3 is heavily dependent on systemd but there are folks that have gotten it to work without systemd. Can't speak for KDE, even though I use a systemd distro with KDE - never dove in to see what the dependencies are. As far as just applications, not sure if systemd has infected that space yet.

montagdude 10-03-2018 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 5910638)
One serious downside is that it appears to be a quite difficult install!

Building the full Gnome desktop is tough. I've done it twice, and while there's an automated installer (really just something that loops over build scripts), there have always been a few that failed and needed manual adjustments. However, just installing the systemd part wasn't too difficult, IIRC.

khronosschoty 10-03-2018 12:59 PM

The biggest downside, I can conjecture, is that there is no official support for this setup.

Richard Cranium 10-03-2018 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 5910463)
Lynyrd Skynerd Poettering et al may be jerks but one could say that the proprietors of SBo are pedants. I havent quit using SBo as a result of not liking someone's attitude that I dont understand.

What does slackbuilds.org have to do with this? You're upset that they don't support Dlackware packages? I don't get it.

You can use the SBo packages to install docker and probably run whatever service you want in a docker container.

BW-userx 10-03-2018 05:47 PM

this is slackware on systemd 0--- looks like an add on, or compile from scratch?

Alien Bob 10-03-2018 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 5910463)
Lynyrd Skynerd Poettering et al may be jerks but one could say that the proprietors of SBo are pedants. I havent quit using SBo as a result of not liking someone's attitude that I dont understand.

The unwritten policy of slackbuilds.org is that its packages will not replace Slackware originals. There may be a limited number of packages where that is not 100% true, like sendmail -> postfix but those are corner cases.
Dlackware replaces several core Slackware packages, because of PAM and systemd, and that is not acceptable for slackbuilds.org.

Richard Cranium 10-03-2018 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alien Bob (Post 5910798)
The unwritten policy of slackbuilds.org is that its packages will not replace Slackware originals. There may be a limited number of packages where that is not 100% true, like sendmail -> postfix but those are corner cases.
Dlackware replaces several core Slackware packages, because of PAM and systemd, and that is not acceptable for slackbuilds.org.

Ah, I see. Thanks.

Regnad Kcin 10-03-2018 07:52 PM

Quote:

What does slackbuilds.org have to do with this? You're upset that they don't support Dlackware packages? I don't get it
Actually I am saying that I am not upset with slackbuilds.org despite what could be called an "attitude".
They don't exactly support -current and they don't offer any clue on their pages to how one might get such support.
Of course us "privileged white grumpy cisgender male" linuxers can find a way, and we extend sufficient grace to make up for it.

One of the arguments against systemd is the attitude of its developers. Attitude is all around.
Maybe attitude of the developers is not a primary reason to reject software.

***
Quote:

I'm curious what software "requires" systemd and is unable to be run without it. By all means give systemd a try if you wish though
My particular "need" was regarding a proprietary bit of code offered by a VPN provider. Where ever you live in the world (even the USA) you may find that the nanny state blocks certain web sites for various reasons (copyrights, decency, and national security are generally cited as a cover for their "flippin' fascist caprices") , and for various reasons you may need to politely tunnel through their walls. One can with great difficulty construct a VPN client by hand, and with much less difficulty use one of Network Manager tools such as what AlienBob et al have graciously provided. My current VPN provider has a particularly lovely toolset that unfortunately only supports windows, mac, android, and systemd linux. Their toolset can find a way through the wall when the manual OpenVPN fails due to bandwidth or other ills. It is proprietary closed source software they say and they dont much care that I use a non-systemd Linux nor care they that their tool rests upon an opensource foundation. The "service" has got to be turned on with systemctl (part of systemd) to make their daemon available. Sort of like "chmod +x atyercervix.sh", only carunchy.

I had noticed in Count Vader's skype thread that Dlackware might open a way to run such widgets.

Quote:

The biggest downside, I can conjecture, is that there is no official support for this setup.
There is no official support for multilib or LibreOffice or dozens of other things we do to "mod" or "pimp" our slackware.

Quote:

However, just installing the systemd part wasn't too difficult, IIRC.
I tried it first on an fresh install of -current and it wasn't pretty.
14.2 might have worked but that wouldnt help me much since I dont use 14.2
This is a project for some future rainy day.

BradReed 10-03-2018 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 5910820)
My particular "need" was regarding a proprietary bit of code offered by a VPN provider. Where ever you live in the world (even the USA) you may find that the nanny state blocks certain web sites for various reasons (copyrights, decency, and national security are generally cited as a cover for their "flippin' fascist caprices") , and for various reasons you may need to politely tunnel through their walls. One can with great difficulty construct a VPN client by hand, and with much less difficulty use one of Network Manager tools such as what AlienBob et al have graciously provided. My current VPN provider has a particularly lovely toolset that unfortunately only supports windows, mac, android, and systemd linux. Their toolset can find a way through the wall when the manual OpenVPN fails due to bandwidth or other ills. It is proprietary closed source software they say and they dont much care that I use a non-systemd Linux nor care they that their tool rests upon an opensource foundation. The "service" has got to be turned on with systemctl (part of systemd) to make their daemon available. Sort of like "chmod +x atyercervix.sh", only carunchy.

I had noticed in Count Vader's skype thread that Dlackware might open a way to run such widgets.

I have had to use VPNs in many of my postings overseas. I have even used them in the U.S. to get around region restrictions on services I wanted to use.

Most of the services in systemd are started by the unit files in the /etc/systemd/system directory. These are just text files, so you could probably just read the actual command to start the service and run it manually. You may have to set the proper environment, paths, etc. but you should be able to read that from the unit file as well.

montagdude 10-03-2018 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 5910820)
I tried it first on an fresh install of -current and it wasn't pretty.
14.2 might have worked but that wouldnt help me much since I dont use 14.2
This is a project for some future rainy day.

Okay, I haven't tried on -current. You will probably need to use the master branch if you aren't already. You can also post on their issue tracker. They are fairly responsive and without "attitude," from my experience.


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