While it's true that anything prepackaged makes life simpler at the beginning, there isn't any way in the world that anybody can claim that KDE (or any other desktop) is the most productive. Productive is choosing the right tools for the job you want to accomplish. The advantages of KDE are also its disadvantages.

I'd like to see a list of what you can do in KDE that you can't do under any other light desktop.

I can easily get away from it- I'm so far away from it that on the 5 Linux and BSD machines I run, not one of them has as much as a single KDE library on it. And you know what? I don't even miss it

I can read and write documents in all kinds of formats, display PDFs, join a bunch of PDFs into one document, listen to music, burn CDs, talk with my dev team on IM, write and debug software in tons of languages, access other machines remotely, surf the web, have my choice of 10 different editors (there are more of course but those are the only ones I need LOL) the list goes on.

The big question for anyone who thinks "you need KDE for productive desktop use" then I'd like to know what happened before KDE came out? Were *NIX desktop machines unproductive? That's pretty hard to support.

(kaplication, gaplication) wars killing linux(a less of aplications).
In simplicity is power - the reason why I use slackware and fluxbox.

PLease divide aplication and desktop - kaplication is not the way.

I'm not saying that people didn't use *nix productively before KDE came out and I sure didn't use *nix before KDE came out so I wouldn't know. When I said "you need" I meant "I need". KDE does have a lot of apps that make life easier. I'm not disputing that there are alternatives, but at least for me I find many KDE apps more tuned to my way of doing things.

Just take "kile" for instance. It's a one-of-a-kind LaTeX editor for the KDE desktop complete with autocompletion of tags and easy document navigation. I have LyX but I find "kile" a great option because while I can type in the tags myself, I have help in the form of autocompletion of tags.

Similarly I've not found a single good burning app to replace K3b.

I can name a few more, but I cannot remember them now.

But the upshot of it is that I've looked at KDE and I've looked at the alternatives and I find KDE's apps to suit me better than the equivalent GTK apps. Yes, there are plenty of apps which work without KDE and I myself am a fan of GTK and other libraries (due to licensing issues with QT) but I cannot find good equivalent of *certain* applications in other desktops.

KDE serves a certain purpose and provides a complete desktop solution for many Linux users and I feel that those who spew disdain upon it are unjustified and unfair.

The time taken to set up a desktop system using KDE is far less and provides a great solution for those who just want a easy, full-featured productive desktop.

You can create a productive desktop with any other DE or WM but it would take you longer to download and install the necessary applications from different sources. KDE makes this task easier.

I use KDE but I'm thinking about trying something new.


I tried installing enlightenment but I failed at it

I'll probably try installing that again and also flux since a lot of you guys seem to like it (though it sounds too minimalist, I just want to try something new, I like me some eye candy)

I usually use Fluxbox (Because I like it.)

Let me point out two applications that make my life quite easier on KDE, though I don't know it they would work in other window managers (Kompose doesn't work in XFCE, I have tried it...)

Kompose, it is a MacOS expose-like application. You call it with a keyboard shortcut (I have it in [Win]+[Tab] and in a mouse button -- that's thanks to imwheel) and you get a preview of all your windows grouped by desktops (that's configurable) you click a window and you go there
<offtopic>
Novell's XGL includes a similar feature that mimics exactly how it looks on Apple's MacOS, really looks like a rip off. Kompose looks more rough, but it works great and it's absolutely useful to find lost windows or just change focus between them among your multiple desktops.
</offtopic>

Kommando, is a "Neverwinter Nights" like wheelmenu for KDE. It allows rapid access to user defined applications and shell commands and is of course a nice toy to show off with ;-). It's nice and is quite practical, you really have all your most common applications by justs a few clicks away. It's also keyboard shortcut based, and I have it too in another mouse button thanks to imwheel

Both have bugs, sometimes something fails. But still so, I can't recommend them enough for KDE users

I prefer using a stripped down WindowMaker (I find it a little "bloated" as is).

In other words, I disable the clip and the dock, and have a few dockapps like time, CPU load, network load, sensors, album cover, mandelbrot browser arranged on the left side starting from the top. WM also uses "miniwindows", which I also disable so all that's left is a dock icon showing which apps are running.

I find it trivially easy to set up keyboard shortcuts for anything I like, as well as having simple scripts on the menu itself that are easy to edit.

It's also easy to make it look very nice, for example I've used an image as the background for the dockapps and titlebars.

Now to tell you the truth I had always used Gnome before my daughter started using the computer when she was 2, and since she hadn't figured out how to "right-click" to bring up the menu, she could do minimal damage. Of course my son now doesn't know how to do anything but right click, so I might have to rethink things again...

Other than standards compliance, is there a compelling reason to use OpenBox over Flux?

It's slightly more obscure and a little bit under the radar.

Many linux users would GLADLY throw away their precious desktops just so that they can use something that's relatively unknown and 1337. FACT.

Openbox is slightly less known than fluxbox, therefore it is slightly better.

/me hurries off and compiles and installs latest Openbox CVS

I agree that productivity is a subjective topic. I would venture to guess, however, that most typical computer users find KDE a more productive environment than the lightweight desktops. By typical I do not mean Slackers but mom-and-pops, home users, and general office workers.

I know of a guy who still uses a Commodore 64 to keep his books for his small business. That task is the only one in which he uses a computer. He sees no reason to change. I know of a person who still uses WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS and keeps that environment on a computer not connected to the web or a network. He believes there is no reason whatever for him to learn new software that he has used successfully for 20 years and he refuses to risk that computer getting infected with malware or viruses. I still use Excel 5 for one lone spreadsheet I created 12 years ago for the simple reason that I do not care to revise all the macros. The spreadsheet works exactly as I want and I see no need to change.

A few weeks ago I was in an automotive repair shop. The manager was using a computer to verify prices and parts availability. He is not a computer person. He is a mechanic. His hands were greasy, the keyboard was greasy, the mouse was greasy. To him productivity means the computer provides the information he seeks and does so with mere typing and basic mouse usage. To recommend to him that he learn how to edit configuration files would be folly.

Yes, productivity is subjective.

1. Point-and-click to configure the mouse for left-handed use. Of course, if a new user is willing to spend several hours surfing the web, and reading a lot of documentation to understand the relationship of X to the computer and the desktop, then they will discover they can create and edit some text-based configuration files to provide for a left-handed mouse. But for most new users, people who simply want to get their computers working so they can surf the web, fetch email, and write an occasional letter, they are more likely to ditch the lightweight desktop in favor of KDE, GNOME, Xfce, Windows, or Macs. After more than 15 years of Windows and Macs being the popular computer environment, most typical computer users expect nothing less than point-and-click to perform most computer tasks. To most such users, using the command line is a horrifying thought.

2. Keyboard mapping consistency. Within the "heavy" desktop environments, users can expect complete consistency with respect to keyboard shortcuts within all programs. When I use Kate, I know that Ctrl-V, Ctrl-C, and Ctrl-X will function the same as in any other KDE app, or for that matter, any Windows app. I reduce my learning curve. Use other programs, however, and one is required to learn a completely different keyboard map. Even if one takes the time to learn how to remap the keyboard in that program, most users will not bother. I certainly won't. For example, although I can use vi or vim, I avoid console-based editors like a plague because the user interface is so different from everything else in KDE. I would love to see somebody in the KDE team remove the GUI components from Kate to create an otherwise consistent console-based text editor.

3. Local networking. Although IT professionals and hackers are expected to know command line tools and methods, typical users are not. Many people are installing small LANs in their home and a GUI point-and-click interface is a huge help to such users. Most such users would rather point-and-click to add user accounts through Kuser rather than learn command line syntax. Most people would prefer the KDE control center to configure printers rather than the archaic web-based interface of CUPs. Most people, when told to open a browser and type "localhost:631" simply stare with blank eyes. What has that got to do with configuring the printer?

4. Then there are the children. KDE provides many educational programs. Running those programs is more efficient and smooth within the KDE environment.

Bear in mind, I'm not arguing for or against which option is best for any particular user, but for typical people KDE is going to provide more bang for the buck. More importantly, more bang for the learning curve. Computers have proven to be incredibly flexible with respect to how any particular user solves a problem or completes a task. I personally am comfortable with both the GUI and command line. I have written several dozen bash scripts to run automated computer tasks in an efficient manner, but I almost always prefer a point-and-click option for those tasks that cannot be automated. Lightweight desktops do not provide many of those types of tools.

They probably used Windows or Macs.

Depends all upon one's perspective. For the typical IT person, probably not. For the typical desktop user, probably. I find interesting, however, that thus far in this poll KDE is most popular desktop even among the Slackers at this forum, despite Slackers being people who do not mind tinkering under the hood. I have been using desktop computers for more than 25 years. I have taught computer classes and have provided some consulting services as well. I have observed that point-and-click is by far the more popular option with most users. Automobiles went through a transition where, in the beginning, owners tended to perform their own maintenance. That certainly is no longer true today. Likewise with computers. Most people today want to use their computers to get from A to B and have no desire to tweak and maintain anything under the hood that goes beyond simple point-and-click. Thus, there is no "right" or "wrong" answer to these types of questions. The only answer is what works best for each person and whether that person is comfortable with that solution.

Wow. That is a snobbish, 'look down my nose' comment that is making me see red.

You elitist snob. Just because a person works with their hands, your assumption is that they are not 'good enough' to edit config files or, let's say, enable DRI on their system?

OK, Capt. Snobsman, look in my sig. In case your upturned nose blocks it, click on my DRI link. You see that link? You see the screen after screen of information put in there?

It was made by a man with 'greasy fingers'. That's right. I work for a living, sweating. Unlike you, I have a job that requires more than sniffing the air and saying "Buffy, the maid forgot the carpet again".

Get your head out of your southend, buddy, and realize this is not a technocratic world. As far as most of us working class people are concerned, the world will function fine without any 'technical writers', but try to think what the world would be like without a truck driver. You would starve to death within a month. "Buffy, we're out of Perrier!!"

Get a clue. When you get your upturned snob nose back to earth, let me know. Your advice in this forum is first rate. Your elitist attitude is not.

Okay, but you're letting your anger get in the way. Woodsman's point, I think, was that the definition of productivity is relative depending on what it is you need to get done. You shouldn't HAVE to know how a computer works to use one effectively. I would just argue with the way he expressed that.

BTW, the younger guys I know who are really into their cars use laptops to tune the Electronic Fuel Injection. Chip tuning has been around for a while now, and some of those guys really know their stuff from a technical standpoint. (At least I assume they do, since I never actually understand what they're talking about.)

We need to quit trying to think outside the box, because there are no boxes.

Exactly. Boxes only confine.

And yes, my anger did get the best of me. The attitude that I saw there. I see every day. If you saw me at my regular job, you would not know that I've been messing with these bloody things since '73. The assumption that "it would be folly" for him to learn just chaps my hide.

I will not put up with it, nor will I apologize for my statement.

Assuming is NOT the way.

Ah, well, enough on this subject. We now return you to your regular poll/thread...

One of the drawbacks with trying to communicate online solely in writing is that sometimes a reader is unable to properly determine context. In the same vein, writers seldom can anticipate every interpretation that a reader might provide. This seems to be one of those times.

I did not intend my statement to be snobbish or to ostracize particular people. I'd like to think that by reading my entire post I was doing the opposite. My statement was merely an observation about productivity being subjective. My intended point about the auto mechanic---possibly not well written---was only that he more than likely would not devote time to tinkering with the computer because he had already paid for that expertise when he purchased the database software. He simply is too busy as a mechanic and store manager to deal with that and doing so would be, to him, not productive. He might take time to investigate some "simple" point-and-click solutions, but he is not going to become a database or programming specialist. He expects that software to always work and he does not want to spend time learning computer operating systems. My statement was not about potential or intellectual capacity, but about productivity. He makes money when he is in the shop repairing cars, not when he is editing config files. My reference to folly was about productivity, not ability. The context of my text was that productivity is subjective. Stereotyping people was never in my mind.

I use a lot of tools and I do not always want to learn or understand how the appliance works underneath. For example, although I have a background in electronics and computers, I do not care how a VCR or DVD remote control unit works. I would understand the technology and schematics if I was motivated to investigate, but I simply want the thing to work. That was my underlying point about the mechanic. Aptitude is not a question, time and productivity is the question.

Tech writer or not, do know that I am a person who regularly gets his finger nails dirty. For many years I worked as an instrument and computer technician, regularly getting hands and clothes dirty. I performed about half of the work when I built my house and I was my own general contractor. I routinely perform maintenance on my truck. I cut, split, and stack 6 to 7 full cords of firewood every year. Every winter I plow snow. I do almost all of my home repairs. Because of that I cannot remember ever saying anything similar to "Buffy, the maid forgot the carpet again." I doubt I could tender any statement that isolated or categorized people with greasy hands or slander people who work with their hands---I am part of that world.

FWIW, almost all of my tech writing experience has been within the industrial sector, not in any "snobbish" white-collared environment. Throughout that experience I was routinely expected to don hard hats and safety shoes and dig in and get dirty right along with the subject matter experts.

Additionally, probably like you, other than a couple of classes in basic digital circuitry and microprocessors when I studied electronics (and when I studied electronics, tube theory was still being taught!), all that I have learned about computers is self-taught.

The world could indeed survive just fine without technical writers---of that I have no doubt, but I would not starve to death within a month. I am fairly self-sufficient in my neck of the woods, and I literally live in the woods. I am sufficiently stocked with many basic tools. What tools I do not own neighbors possess and are willing to share and vice-versa. Being a DIY type of person, and living in a remote rural area where most people are jacks-of-all-trades, in an area where self-sufficiency, hunting, and fishing are not only regional traditions but expected skills, I probably would survive longer than many people. Rural people learn to take care of themselves. Without truck drivers I certainly would have to adapt to living without certain enjoyed and preferred commodities, but I'd survive.

BTW, I cannot recall at any time in my life having drank Perrier. My favorite beverage, of which I drink 6 to 8 quarts daily, is the water from my deep well. So if times got tough and Perrier disappeared from the shelves, I would not miss or skip a beat.

I'm sorry you misunderstood me. Offending you or anybody else was never my intent. Not that I am incapable of upturning my nose or sticking my head up my south end, but you could have asked me to clarify my statement before blasting me.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some marigolds to water. Marigolds that I planted with my own hands in soil I tilled with my own hands---a task that causes me to sweat and get dirty every year. Not marigolds bought in a store but grown from seeds that I harvested myself. And after watering the flowers I think I'll eat some wild raspberries. Not store-bought raspberries, but picked with my own hands. And after that I might sit on the front porch swing reading a book. Or I might just watch the deer and young fawns roaming through. After all, we don't live in a technocratic world.