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Old 05-21-2020, 05:55 PM   #16
bassmadrigal
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I'll play the game as well. I like to think the best of people and that they aren't actively trying to troll. This does seem to be a frustrated user who has ran into some problems while using Slackware, not someone from the outside who is trolling (but there are some clever trolls out there as well, so I'm not discounting it).

@Zvonkovich, if you're sincerely curious and not trolling but don't want to read my novel (I know, I have a problem with writing novels), at least skip to the end and read my reply to your last quote. I would also recommend starting new posts for the issues you've been having with mplayer and luks+lvm. These seem to be legit issues (compared to design considerations) and the issues should be thoroughly documented so hopefully a fix can be found.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
Why do you use Slackware and not any mainstream distro like debian, ubuntu, opensuse? Please, don't post something like "I've used it for 10 years now so that' why". Personally, I don't thing this is a real benefit and a reason to use Slackware. I'd like to see real benefits for real users.
Because I've found it's the best for me. I found that out over 15 years ago and I've never found a reason to leave (the grass does not look greener on the other side, so I'll stay here until something changes my mind). It's been rock solid stable with a great community that include some incredibly knowledgeable people who frequently contribute to threads and the development of Slackware (I've learned a lot from them over the years of contributing here). I like the philosophies of Slackware, namely trying to provide vanilla packages as upstream intended them and not jumping to every new thing out there. I also like how they don't hide the innards of Slackware with fancy GUIs, which allows me to have more control over the system and allow me to better troubleshoot it when something goes wrong (and those issues are usually self-inflicted).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
During this year and a half I got 4 breakages of system (3 minor, that i fixed my self, 1 major after some upgrade when I couldn't even load elilo).
Breakages are possible when running -current. It is the development version of Slackware and while Pat does a great job, occasional breakages happen with the core packages (but these are rare, especially when comparing to a rolling release distro like Arch). On 14.2, I haven't had a breakage with upgrading the system to the latest patches/. Stability is paramount on stable releases, but anything goes with the development version and it is expected that non-official packages can be broken at any time (official packages aren't expected to be broken on -current, but very rarely, sometimes errors will slip through the cracks and can cause breakage of official packages).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
I've found that default init system is just awful.
What makes the init system awful? I will be the first to admit that there are limitations with this init system that are solved by systemd (I've covered my takes on it here, but systemd brings many more complications. The limitations with Slackware's init system are minor and not anything that I feel is worth worrying about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
Some init scripts that comes from SBo seems like was written by people who started to learn bash a couple of days ago.
And these scripts might be from someone who just started to learn bash. My first SlackBuild I created was laughably bad, but over the years, I've gotten much better with shell scripts. Have you reached out to these people with poorly written rc scripts and made any suggestions to them? I like receiving constructive criticism on my scripts because it teaches me new things I can apply to other or future scripts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
Multilib and most of really necessary stuff are not in official repo and I had to compile it myself most of the time.
Multilib not being included is by design. When Slackware64 was introduced, it was intended to be a pure 64bit OS that was multilib ready. For those who want a pure 64bit version, this affords them the opportunity and for those that need 32bit and 64bit capabilities, it is easy to install multilib by using Alien Bob's multilib repo. He provides all the source if you prefer building them yourself. It should be noted that Alien Bob was the original creator of Slackware64 and he pitched it to Pat, which is what lead to the official Slackware64 release of 13.0.

Both of my Slackware computers right now are pure 64bit and don't have multilib (which I will probably switch my desktop to multilib once 15.0 comes out for gaming). For my htpc, the only things I needed to compile are kodi and its dependencies. The base install works perfectly fine (I think I'm even using the stock ffmpeg for kodi, but I'd need to double check). For my desktop, I have over 500 unofficial packages installed at this point (almost all are built from SBo). Slackware can't include what everyone feels is "necessary stuff", because what's necessary for one person is not needed for someone else.

As for other programs, Slackware includes a sane default base install and you're free to install additional things. As others have mentioned, there are several 3rd-party repos that have pre-compiled packages available, or you can build your own manually or using scripts (like from SBo).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
TBH most of day-to-day soft that comes with default installation is crap. Mplayer that hangs every time I open file more than 20 Gb and that can't properly render custom fonts in subs.
I've never had problems with mplayer. I've been using mplayer for almost 2 decades now (originally self-compiled, but I can use the stock version now that it's included). It plays all the files I throw at it and I don't have any problems with subtitles. If you're running into issues, they should be brought up so hopefully a fix can be found. If mplayer works fine on Pat's machine, then he doesn't know that it needs to be fixed unless you report it.

If you don't like mplayer, mpv or vlc can be used instead. Both are available on SBo or VLC is available pre-compiled in his repo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
XPDF that can search only in english and has no button to rotate/move through pages.
Is this an issue with xpdf or Slackware's packaging of it? Slackware provides programs as intended by their upstream developers. If xpdf itself only supports english searching and doesn't have buttons to rotate/move through pages, then Slackware's package won't change it. There are multiple pdf readers included in Slackware if xpdf doesn't work for you. If this is a bug in xpdf, report it so it can get fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
No office. No office, Carl. In 2020. No office suit.
As others have said, there is an office suite included called Caligra and is included with KDE. No, it isn't OpenOffice or LibreOffice, but Pat has felt those are better supported separately rather than include in the core distro. I have no need for an office suite on my computer. I rarely do anything office related on my personal computers and when I do, I usually just stick with Google Docs or Microsoft Word Online (when the formatting is screwed up in Google Docs). It should be noted that Windows doesn't include an office suite at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
Do you know that Slackware can't proper umount partitions with luks+lvm? Yeah, it cant. I have to do it manually every time not to lose my data.
This sounds like a bug. Report it with more details so the problem can be found. If it is something with Slackware itself, then that allows it to get fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
Network manager, that comes by default has no advanced settings that allows to set auto vpn connection after certain interface.
As already stated, openvpn support was added recently in -current. Before that, it was a simple matter of installing it from SBo. I don't use Network Manager at all and connect to my VPN through rc.openvpn which has been included since at least 14.2 (too lazy to check previous versions).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
I don't want to slam Slackware. Its just my own experience. The only benefit i found so far is a bit (really, a bit) more control over dependencies. The other thing for me... just awful.

I'm not trying to hurt anybody or something of that kind. I just really want to understand, why people use Slackware.
There seems to be some misconceptions. Slackware is not intended to be the distro for everyone and work perfectly for someone's use case out of the box. Slackware is designed to be a good base system and allows you to build the machine you need. Sometimes it's by changing official packages and sometimes it's to add additional packages. It doesn't make you decide between a server, desktop, workstation, etc. You can have it do all of them at once. It recommends a full install which gets you a decent base system and you go from there.

It does not include software that some people consider necessary (popular office suite, media center software, insert your "necessary" software here), because that would drastically increase the size of the base install and increase the time needed for Pat to maintain the distro (and look how long the development cycle has been now). And for every piece of software one considers necessary, someone else is going to think it's bloat (some already think Slackware is bloated). Keep in mind, this distro is managed by one man (with help from his core group, but he ultimately makes the decisions and has final say in how programs are packaged). One man is not able to manage the same number of packages as a distro that has tens or hundreds of developers. However, we have a great community that provides almost 8000 SlackBuilds on SBo and there is a repo that builds all of SBo and provides the packages for users to install (slonly) if they don't want to compile it themselves. There are several programs created to aid in the building of packages from SBo. We also have a few rockstars that provide a ridiculous amount of additional SlackBuilds (and sometimes packages). Alien Bob, rworkman, Dimitris Zlatanidis, B. Watson, 55020, willysr, ponce, and many, many more.

There are fundamental differences between Slackware, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, Arch, Gentoo, etc. What distro is best for a person is not the same for everyone, just as one vehicle is not the right one for everyone. If you are against some of the fundamental differences in Slackware, it might be worth checking other distros to see if you find one that better suits your needs.

As for the actual broken software you've encountered. Please post about them in the forum. Sometimes it's a misconfigured system and sometimes it's a broken package. But it's impossible to fix a broken package if it is only happening to some people and never reported.

I do wish you the best of luck and whether or not you decide to stick it out with Slackware, I hope that you're willing to try and get some of the bugs you've been noticing fixed.
 
4 members found this post helpful.
Old 05-21-2020, 06:48 PM   #17
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
No office. No office, Carl. In 2020. No office suit.
That's the funniest thing I've read on here all week. Thanks for the laugh my friend.
 
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Old 05-21-2020, 08:55 PM   #18
gus3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
Do you know that Slackware can't proper umount partitions with luks+lvm? Yeah, it cant. I have to do it manually every time not to lose my data.
Do you mean "manually" as in "from the command line"?

I just created a 2-PV -> 1-VG -> 1-LV -> LUKS volume, and have mounted, umounted, mounted, populated, defrag'ed, umounted yet again... No issues so far.

If you're saying "proper" to mean "from a GUI file manager" like KDE's Dolphin or Xfce's Thunar, then yes, assumptions and expectations do begin to collide.
 
Old 05-21-2020, 09:17 PM   #19
folkenfanel
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Talking With my apologies to the fine Italian carmaker ;) ; I'm just trying to make a hilarious point: What are the Maserati benefits?

Short version.
Why do you drive Maserati and not any mainstream car like Toyota, Nissan, Chevrolet? Please, don't post something like "I've driven it for 10 years now so that' why". Personally, I don't thing this is a real benefit and a reason to use Maserati. I'd like to see real benefits for real users.

Long version.
I've driven a Maserati Gran Turismo for about a year and a half. I dive into it, I've started to think about buying more of them.
I have no experience with releases, because my vehicle is pretty new and I usually do upgrades once per 2-3 years. During this year and a half I got 4 crashes (3 minor, that i fixed my self, 1 major after some crash when I couldn't even crank it on). The gas pedal is just too sensitive and accelerates too much! I've found that default start system is just awful. No start/stop button! Some aftermarket gadgets seem like were built by people who started to learn car tuning a couple of days ago. The automatic gearbox and most of really necessary stuff are not in official stores and I had to had it made myself most of the time. It's so hard to find original spare parts!

TBH the fuel economy is crap. The clutch pedal is painful and the engine stalls every time. Why did they have to make the transmission manual? The dashboard buttons are all in Italian. And the fuel, it's not hydrogen or a hybrid engine. In 2020. Fully fossil fuel in 2020.

Do you know that the Maserati Gran Turismo can't proper change gears or reverse without risk of stalling? The steering wheel is too sensitive and made me oversteer and crash a few times, luckily with no significant damages. So inconvenient for city driving. Not to mention it's big and hard to properly park.

Bluetooth link, that comes by default needs a costly annual subscription. The leather seats feel too hot in summer and too cold in winter. The AC is too cold. And the immobilizer antitheft device makes the engine stall at inconvenient times.

I don't want to slam Maserati. Its just my own experience. The only benefit i found so far is a bit (really, a bit) more horsepower although it has to use that turbo button that makes it burn even more fuel. The other thing for me... just awful.

I'm not trying to hurt anybody or something of that kind. I just really want to understand, why people drive Maserati.
 
11 members found this post helpful.
Old 05-21-2020, 09:23 PM   #20
Richard Cranium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus3 View Post
Do you mean "manually" as in "from the command line"?

I just created a 2-PV -> 1-VG -> 1-LV -> LUKS volume, and have mounted, umounted, mounted, populated, defrag'ed, umounted yet again... No issues so far.

If you're saying "proper" to mean "from a GUI file manager" like KDE's Dolphin or Xfce's Thunar, then yes, assumptions and expectations do begin to collide.
To be honest, I think he/she/it meant that a LUKS+LVM system will always complain at shutdown that it cannot shutdown one of the volume groups, when your root filesystem is something that exists due to LUKS+LVM.

I think that could be solved by exiting any chroot from the initrd you should have used and issuing a shutdown from there, but I haven't bothered to prove that to myself much less anyone else.

EDIT: And ferreting stuff like this out is one of the reasons I don't automatically throw the OP into the "troll" bucket. YMMV and most certainly will.

EDIT2: You'd have to ensure that your initrd had everything you needed to do the final shutdown as well. I don't know if that is the case without some experimentation that I'm not willing to do at the moment. Someone could be famous if they figured it out for Slackware.

Last edited by Richard Cranium; 05-22-2020 at 12:08 AM. Reason: Thought of something else.
 
Old 05-21-2020, 09:46 PM   #21
PROBLEMCHYLD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
EDIT: And ferreting stuff like this out is one of the reasons I don't automatically throw the OP into the "troll" bucket. YMMV and most certainly will.
Troll is used too loosely in the forums. Its like when people dislike something or disagree, "you are considered a hater"...

I also like Slackware because I can torrent anonymously on it. No VPN, NO Tor, just a couple settings I stumble across last year or so.
 
Old 05-21-2020, 11:46 PM   #22
drgibbon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PROBLEMCHYLD View Post
I also like Slackware because I can torrent anonymously on it. No VPN, NO Tor, just a couple settings I stumble across last year or so.
I'm highly sceptical that something special about Slackware lets you "torrent anonymously"! Good that you don't torrent over Tor, but torrents over I2P are a serious option
 
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:22 AM   #23
PROBLEMCHYLD
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Of course I have some additional software installed but I use Slackware to do it.
 
Old 05-22-2020, 04:22 AM   #24
felipeperona
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Hello,
This is why I'm using Slackware. And I have to say that I'm not an IT professional, just a simple user.
Slackware is in all my PCs and I use it for 99.9% of my tasks. Only for my job I have to switch to Windows, sometimes.
I cannot compare with other distros because my experience is very limited. I only have dealt with some Debian like distros for Raspberry Pi, but in PC I only have taken Slackware serious.

1. I liked Slackware because it was the first Linux that I could install and run properly in my PC. All my other attempts were a big headache (Debian, Gentoo).
2. When I use it, I feel under control, safe and that I know what the computer (and I) is doing.
3. I like its KISS philosophy
4. I have learned soooo much with it. And that is not obvious when you use other distros. When I have a trouble to solve in Slackware, yes I have to spend time on it, but after that, I learn something. Just check the forums, in some distros the solution is always something like "... sudo up-get a_new_package", you don't get nothing from that, it is just an illusion. Here (and Arch forum are very good too) you get content and understanding of what it is happening, that has a price (time) but I think it worth it.
5. It simply works. I have been using an old -current version for years without big problems. When I update it, is because I feel it need something fresh, but not because it really need it.
6. Maybe I' too old school, but the text at booting and shutting down is super cool.
7. The community that comes with Slackware has big value as well. Point 4 is related to that, but also all the parallel almost-official work of the community gives flexibility to Slackware. So, you can have a bullet-proof OS, a bit outdated sometimes (but do you really need the last version of everything?), or take a small and controlled risk using the packages from AlienBob, for example.
8. I like that the default is runlevel 3.
9. I used to use Window Maker for years and I loved it, simple, efficient, light.
10. I have the impression that it doesn't overload my PC with extras. I can say it because the fan of my laptop is almost always off, but when I switch to Windows it runs all the time (yes, I have a double boot, and I hate that, but I need Wind for my job).

The Office thing. I think this is a point. I use Libreoffice, but in my company are super reluctant to it, and I have to admit that I find MSOffice more effective. But that is not a specific Slackware problem.

Well, that is what came to my mind.

best,
Felipe.-
 
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Old 05-22-2020, 08:54 AM   #25
gp.d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvonkovich View Post
...
Why do you use Slackware ...
Because it ships with xv & xmms ;-)

greetings
gp.d
 
Old 05-22-2020, 10:56 AM   #26
hazel
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1. Slackware is very simple inside, therefore easy to understand. Package management is almost blindingly simple.

2. It's very stable.

3. It just works.

I've been using Linux for twenty years now but for most of that time I avoided Slackware because it had a reputation for eccentricity. It wasn't "mainstream". I was always curious about it though, and a couple of years ago I took the plunge. To my surprise, I found it easy to install, easy to maintain and easy to use. It fits like a comfortable old shoe. I'm getting too old to distro-hop so I think I shall stay a slacker from now on.
 
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Old 05-22-2020, 11:06 AM   #27
0XBF
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@Zvonkovich

You registered an account yesterday and immediately posted this question so it seems like you thought this question was important enough to you to go through these steps. Then you don't check it or reply to any of the responses to your points. Seems like troll behavior to me since you don't seem interested in any followup.
 
Old 05-22-2020, 11:20 AM   #28
hitest
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I've been using Linux for twenty years now but for most of that time I avoided Slackware because it had a reputation for eccentricity. It wasn't "mainstream". I was always curious about it though, and a couple of years ago I took the plunge. To my surprise, I found it easy to install, easy to maintain and easy to use. It fits like a comfortable old shoe. I'm getting too old to distro-hop so I think I shall stay a slacker from now on.
Same. I'm very happy to be a Slacker. I've used Linux for 18 years, and Slackware for 16 years (started with 10.0). I'm a proud Slackware Patreon supporter.
 
Old 05-22-2020, 11:22 AM   #29
enorbet
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This is a drive-by shooting with a nerf gun... IMHO of course.

However for all my colleagues and friends here at the Slackware subdivision of the LQN community, I use Slackware as my Main for the same fundamental reason I started using it on recommendation of the most experienced guys on IRC #linuxsphere and it's predecessor 20+ years ago. They all said the same thing in slightly different words in 1999... "Slackware just compiles stuff right". That of course was a testament to the extreme work of PatV who works very hard to keep Slackware vanilla. Almost everything else depends on that base. Almost all the other distros bought into the misguided concept that convenience is more valuable than understanding and power, not to mention the advertising slogans that shout "New == Improved" that keeps them all on the Exercise Wheel that most often goes nowhere but in circles.

To once again quote Richard Pryor...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Pryor as Mudbone
Old fool? You don't get to BE old bein' no fool. A lotta young smartass deader 'n shit!
As for Mr. Zvonkovich, I'm betting we won't see a single follow up post so draw your own conclusions from that.

Last edited by enorbet; 05-22-2020 at 11:43 AM. Reason: addon
 
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Old 05-22-2020, 11:32 AM   #30
hitest
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
This is a drive-by shooting with a nerf gun... IMHO of course.
I suppose. I'm not going to invest any emotional energy and label the OP in any way. I answered his/her post in a straight forward way. I've enjoyed reading this thread; it's a celebration of Slackware.
I'm very grateful for the dedication of Mr. Volkerding and the Slackware Team.
 
  


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