Torn between distributions

T3slider · 07-31-2012, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305

What I like about Fedora and Redhat is that its more Terminal friendly then Ubuntu.

You have access to the terminal in 100% (99.99%?) of GNU/Linux distros including both of those. Ubuntu uses apt-get for package management, which is command-line driven. Both of those distros include some graphical software configuration utilities that heavily discourage manual editing of certain configuration files. I don't see how one is better or worse at providing terminal access.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305

Fedora also comes with systemd rather then consolekit which in my opinion is better and will keep getting better since its so new.

Newer is always better, apparently. This is why Windows ME was such an improvement over Windows 9x and why The Godfather III is the best of the series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305

I am happy that I no longer need to learn "shell scripting" lang anymore thanks to systemd. The syntax is quite obsolete when you compare to a more modern language such as Python.

Have fun performing system maintenance all from within an interactive python interpreter. You are obviously a fan of the completely ridiculous and undeniably incorrect assertion that one language is best for all tasks instead of the correct reasoning that certain languages are better for certain tasks. You could spend tons of time writing sophisticated parsing mechanisms in python to parse something, while I write a quick bash script in 1/10th the time using grep/cut/rev/awk/sed/sort/etc. and pipes. Bash is better for simple scripts that demand to be easily readable (and especially for scripts that call a lot of system binaries), python is better for more advanced scripts where simple piping of text streams and line-by-line parsing is too restrictive (or where external or sophisticated libraries are needed). Python is a programming language that can be used for scripting, while bash doesn't pretend to do more than it does. They serve different purposes.

I disagree with so much of what you say and how you say it. You assert things that are either opinions or plain wrong (or ridiculous) in a manner that suggests they are facts. You always assume that something is either right or wrong, and you're looking for or providing a definitive answer where there isn't one. I will go no further lest I be reprimanded for instigating a personal attack...but for someone who stated that you would avoid the controversial issues because of the outcome of your first few threads, you do not appear to be doing that at all. I almost question your reason for using this forum when 90% of your posts recommend others to use another distro or ask for comparisons of other distros. I *think* this used to be a forum for asking for help with or discussing (solvable) issues with Slackware, though I could be wrong.

Mercury305 · 07-31-2012, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3slider

You have access to the terminal in 100% (99.99%?) of GNU/Linux distros including both of those. Ubuntu uses apt-get for package management, which is command-line driven. Both of those distros include some graphical software configuration utilities that heavily discourage manual editing of certain configuration files. I don't see how one is better or worse at providing terminal access.

Newer is always better, apparently. This is why Windows ME was such an improvement over Windows 9x and why The Godfather III is the best of the series.

Have fun performing system maintenance all from within an interactive python interpreter. You are obviously a fan of the completely ridiculous and undeniably incorrect assertion that one language is best for all tasks instead of the correct reasoning that certain languages are better for certain tasks. You could spend tons of time writing sophisticated parsing mechanisms in python to parse something, while I write a quick bash script in 1/10th the time using grep/cut/rev/awk/sed/sort/etc. and pipes. Bash is better for simple scripts that demand to be easily readable (and especially for scripts that call a lot of system binaries), python is better for more advanced scripts where simple piping of text streams and line-by-line parsing is too restrictive (or where external or sophisticated libraries are needed). Python is a programming language that can be used for scripting, while bash doesn't pretend to do more than it does. They serve different purposes.

I disagree with so much of what you say and how you say it. You assert things that are either opinions or plain wrong (or ridiculous) in a manner that suggests they are facts. You always assume that something is either right or wrong, and you're looking for or providing a definitive answer where there isn't one. I will go no further lest I be reprimanded for instigating a personal attack...but for someone who stated that you would avoid the controversial issues because of the outcome of your first few threads, you do not appear to be doing that at all. I almost question your reason for using this forum when 90% of your posts recommend others to use another distro or ask for comparisons of other distros. I *think* this used to be a forum for asking for help with or discussing (solvable) issues with Slackware, though I could be wrong.

Simple shell scripts ofcorse. But the init scripts are a lil more then just simple scripts... As for python uses how about when things get more complex? By the way if you read my post I use "in my opinion" quite frequently. Look I think this trying to "fit in" thing doesn't quite work for me. I mean at times I have to speak my mind to put my opinions for. After all isn't this what a forum is made to do?

fo·rum/ˈfôrəm/
Noun:

A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
An Internet message board.

If this is a Slackware Fan Club where anything you say detrimental for Slackwares sake is forbidden. I must have been lost. But reading that this is www.linuxquestions.org I believe I am in the right spot. You can personally hate my guts I don't care. But you won't stop me from stating my own thoughts on a forum even if they might be wrong to you. After all this is a forum. the only way I can be silenced is through a Moderator. So whenever I have my opinions to share I will continue to do so. And if someone thinks what I believe in is wrong... then just say so... You don't have to attack me personally to start a flame war. It seems somehow everyone targets me in person as opposed to my ideas to be discussed whenever I state something negative of my thoughts on slackware.

imo,
Ubuntu has a lot of restrictions in the Terminal compared to Fedora.

Try the "su" command for example. Anyways I am just stating my opinions if I am wrong then just speak your mind. Don't run along attacking my character like most other narrow minded people do. this is a forum to talk about Linux not me. Just because you don't like my opinion shouldn't be a reason to diverge topics towards my character... Imagine a new comer that was interested in a distro. I think when I join a conversation on distros to compare there is nothing wrong with it. Especially since there is SOOO MANY Distros it is like a place for new comers to learn from reading comments. You should think of others sake as well when we compare distros not everyone is "3l1t3" like you are sir. Some of us including myself are still learning.

ReaperX7 · 07-31-2012, 09:14 PM

Ease up there Merc. Lets keep it civil. So with that let's all get back on topic and no fighting please.

You are right though on one aspect, there is always something that can be learned with Linux as to why I created this topic. The point is, we have to take each distribution with a grain of salt and see what can or can't be learned from it. As even I stated, Slackware taught me some stuff that has been extremely useful, but Arch taught me more as has Gentoo, Ubuntu, and various others I've dabbled with including even BSD based distros like PC-BSD.

I'll admit, Slackware doesn't teach you everything but it's a good foundation to learn with to get the basics, shore up knowledge, and then move into more advanced distros with greater ease. I consider Arch and Gentoo to be more advanced systems with something like LFS being the pinnacle of Linux knowledge to where you don't need a distribution any longer, you have it completely customized down to the core. However to get to use those more advanced systems you need baby steps and Slackware is the best starting point anyone could ever hope to have.

T3slider · 07-31-2012, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305

Simple shell scripts ofcorse. But the init scripts are a lil more then just simple scripts...

Not in Slackware they aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305

If this is a Slackware Fan Club where anything you say detrimental for Slackwares sake is forbidden. I must have been lost.

I hate the evangelical Slackware-is-great threads as much as I hate the Slackware-is-crap threads and those in between. I don't see the point of such threads and if I do post on them (which I generally don't) it is only to negate flat-out lies that may confuse new Linux users.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305

But you won't stop me from stating my own thoughts on a forum even if they might be wrong to you. After all this is a forum.

This is a forum for getting help, not debating distros. There is the general Distribution subforum of LQ if you want to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305

the only way I can be silenced is through a Moderator.

I did not pretend to have any ability to silence you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305

And if someone thinks what I believe in is wrong... then just say so...

In previous threads doing this has just elicited circular logic on your part or a refusal to acknowledge other points. Or a refusal to respond entirely to specific points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305

imo,
Ubuntu has a lot of restrictions in the Terminal compared to Fedora.

Try the "su" command for example.

Code:

# sudo -s
# sudo su

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305

Just because you don't like my opinion shouldn't be a reason to diverge topics towards my character...

It is not the opinion but the constant need to express it. There is a time and a place. Why would you come to a Slackware forum and criticize (or praise) Slackware? This forum is for people that are already using Slackware. If they're still deciding which distro to use then a more general forum would be much more relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury305

not everyone is "3l1t3" like you are sir. Some of us including myself are still learning.

We're always learning and if there are 31337 people here I am not one of them. I don't believe I have criticized anyone for seeking help in this forum. Evangelical zealot wars or flame-bait threads are not seeking help.

Mercury305 · 07-31-2012, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReaperX7

Ease up there Merc. Lets keep it civil. So with that let's all get back on topic and no fighting please.

You are right though on one aspect, there is always something that can be learned with Linux as to why I created this topic. The point is, we have to take each distribution with a grain of salt and see what can or can't be learned from it. As even I stated, Slackware taught me some stuff that has been extremely useful, but Arch taught me more as has Gentoo, Ubuntu, and various others I've dabbled with including even BSD based distros like PC-BSD.

I'll admit, Slackware doesn't teach you everything but it's a good foundation to learn with to get the basics, shore up knowledge, and then move into more advanced distros with greater ease. I consider Arch and Gentoo to be more advanced systems with something like LFS being the pinnacle of Linux knowledge to where you don't need a distribution any longer, you have it completely customized down to the core. However to get to use those more advanced systems you need baby steps and Slackware is the best starting point anyone could ever hope to have.

I would say the best place to learn something is to read good DOCS and practice. I will state that both FreeBSD and Arch have great DOC support and I would not say the same for Slackware. As for looking for a Pure "UNIX LIKE" system I think we have come a long way from 1970's and every current system now is far different then that including Slackware... I think its time to move on. But again that is just my own opinion. Even if you read the interviews of Rob Pike, Ken Thompson they would agree with me (actually I am agreeing with them). When times change you gotta adapt to change.

As for Linux, Linux is becoming something more... Its constantly changing and evolving due to this open source concept. 10 years from now it will be so much different. I can tell you in 1998 when I started up Slack or even RedHat for that matter everything was Prehistoric (desktop wise). As a matter of fact the only reason I used Linux back then was to hack my school server that ran Redhat... Now things have changed. I would never think of a touchscreen linux back then.

I would say learning wise if you want to learn "Linux" not "Unix" then Debian is a great place along with Fedora. But again this is my opinion. If you want less problems to deal with and stick to a more UNIX like Simplicity and just master the command line and stay close to the computer then Slack is great. Arch, FreeBSD and Gentoo I find too unnecisarily "complicated" but again this is just my opinion. I can't say that Slackware is "unnecessarily complicated" it is simple and great for command line stuff and to master the command line and scripting and that perfect user centric userland it has along with the prior 3 distros I just mentioned.

I still like it... which is why I still use it from time to time.

Mercury305 · 07-31-2012, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3slider

Not in Slackware they aren't.

I hate the evangelical Slackware-is-great threads as much as I hate the Slackware-is-crap threads and those in between. I don't see the point of such threads and if I do post on them (which I generally don't) it is only to negate flat-out lies that may confuse new Linux users.

This is a forum for getting help, not debating distros. There is the general Distribution subforum of LQ if you want to do that.

I did not pretend to have any ability to silence you.

In previous threads doing this has just elicited circular logic on your part or a refusal to acknowledge other points. Or a refusal to respond entirely to specific points.

Code:

# sudo -s
# sudo su

It is not the opinion but the constant need to express it. There is a time and a place. Why would you come to a Slackware forum and criticize (or praise) Slackware? This forum is for people that are already using Slackware. If they're still deciding which distro to use then a more general forum would be much more relevant.

We're always learning and if there are 31337 people here I am not one of them. I don't believe I have criticized anyone for seeking help in this forum. Evangelical zealot wars or flame-bait threads are not seeking help.

I'm just trying to learn. So when I state my opinions other people like you can state their opinions (without personal attacks)... Then I can make a better decision on what to choose (along with others that read this). I'm not here for war. I am here for knowledge.

I am not sitting down here to say Slackware sucks or Slackware Rocks. I am just stating things I like and dislike about it.

Also as far as the shell script for init. It is much easier to write program for Sys V init then BSD style because you deal with a separate file for each daemon. There is lots of ups and downs to the init system differences. systemd is not perfect. But as a less experienced user, it suits me well.

ReaperX7 · 07-31-2012, 10:17 PM

If you like SysVInit you should check out Linux From Scratch. You can pretty much install it from a small working system like Arch with base and base-devel installed at minimum.

damgar · 07-31-2012, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReaperX7

If you like SysVInit you should check out Linux From Scratch. You can pretty much install it from a small working system like Arch with base and base-devel installed at minimum.

The standard LFS is NOT like installing Arch. Not unless the point of LFS has changed in the last 2 years. I'm not trying to argue any points with anyone, I just think it needs to be said that LFS is an UNDERTAKING, even with fast hardware to build everything. It is DEFINITELY a good if you want to learn, but it is not to be undertaken lightly at least not as a primary system. I just don't want to see anyone formatting a working install and getting (quickly) in over their head.

ReaperX7 · 07-31-2012, 10:56 PM

You can build the base of LFS using Arch or any other distro, and get it bootable with everything needed to start off with. yes LFS is an undertaking, but it does have a uniqueness about it others don't have.

Didier Spaier · 08-01-2012, 02:50 AM

Instead of discussing ad nausea the respective pros and cons of existing distributions, some people who are fully satisfied with none of them tend to create a fork, or even better a really new one.

That's doesn't do that much good, IMHO, as that disperse efforts which could have been be dedicated to enhancing existing distributions, but that doesn't do that much bad either.

At least that can feed articles in distrowatch.com, is more constructive than this thread and make people who create it more knowledgeable in the process.

So I'm eager to greet a brand new distribution that we could call, for instance MercPlusOne and which would be _the_definitive_distribution_ (till the next one).