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Old 08-26-2018, 04:14 PM   #16
Darth Vader
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Yep, but in this forum's slang, that Thing you refer is known as Plasma5.
 
Old 08-26-2018, 04:16 PM   #17
denydias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
Yep, but in this forum's slang, that Thing you refer is known as Plasma5.
I know that!

KDE5, right? ROFL!

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Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
Or maybe because the Linux developers all of them use 40 inches 300Hz LED monitors and do not bother about 12 inches HD displays.
+1
 
Old 08-26-2018, 06:09 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
I for one I consider that KDE ended with KDE4. Plasma5 is certainly a different software which have nothing in common with KDE4.

In fact, Plasma5 was written from scratch. Like they will do probably also with Plasma6 on A.D. 2020 when Qt6 will be released (supposedly).

Then please be kind to refer to this uber-bloated software abomination as Plasma5. There is no such thing like KDE5.

However, even I do not tested myself, I believe that even KDE4 has issues with Retina displays.

Simply because from what I seen the Linux software is not ready for Retina displays.

Or maybe because the Linux developers all of them use 40 inches 300Hz LED monitors and do not bother about 12 inches HD displays.
I think the KDE community/developers care about what hardware is able to run their software. And there are a lot of examples about it:

https://dot.kde.org/2018/08/22/kde-p...aptop-pinebook

If you don't plan to use KDE software anymore, why do you care?
 
Old 08-26-2018, 06:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdiazlo View Post
I think the KDE community/developers care about what hardware is able to run their software. And there are a lot of examples about it:

https://dot.kde.org/2018/08/22/kde-p...aptop-pinebook

If you don't plan to use KDE software anymore, why do you care?
Contrary, I plan to use a KDE software on the entire foreseeable future: KDE4

And I will not care about Plasma5 IF people does not try to push it down through my throat assuming in their mightiness that everyone is wet only thinking of it.

I will not even care if Slackware replaces KDE4 with Plasma5, IF that is done in a way which permit me to NOT install it at all.

And probably this will be the way chosen for future by our BDFL, who stated that even himself contemplate disappointed the eventual pollution of L series by Plasma5.

IF every piece of Plasma5 will be dumped in the KDE series pit, and myself I can avoid install it at all, starting from Qt5, I will be very happy. And I will not care less than about that Plasma5.

Last edited by Darth Vader; 08-26-2018 at 06:40 PM.
 
Old 08-26-2018, 06:30 PM   #20
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I'm not upset. Far from it actually. If I was upset, I won't even bother replying to you.
As you're concerned with my closure in the OP, did you see I extended it later when replying to Alien Bob?
I did, but I didn't understand it. I still don't in fact. I like to hear and discuss opinions, that's how I learn.
That's why I question the reasons behind them.

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Originally Posted by denydias View Post
Anyway, I can't rule out your screenshot. It's a bold statement that my actual opinion may be plain wrong. I'll dig into it and see what I can get from my settings.
It would be awesome if you got your system working more to your liking. I hope this discussion as helped.

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Originally Posted by denydias View Post
As for the black space workaround, I'll pass. It's just not practical when you are in a business day coming back and forth from one customer to another, each with different monitors available. My 'better option' is to set the display scale to a middle term between the small and the big screen so I don't need to adjust it separately for different monitors.
I used to have a script which did all that for me. It wasn't more than ./xrand.sh on my setup. And I think there might be better ways to do it know, like an option to kwin or something, I might give it a try.

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Originally Posted by denydias View Post
Trying to put some sense in it: KDE 4 is already part of Slackware 14.2 and -current. It's not a release candidate. It's a fact. KDE 5 isn't. KDE 5 may or may not get its way in the next major Slackware release. If these problems are for real, then I keep my opinion as there are many HiDPI hardware out there. But if I'm wrong and the problem lies in my particular context, then I totally change my mind and give a big welcome to KDE 5 in Slackware 15.

To keep my point, I don't need to test KDE 4 vs. KDE 5 and see which one performs better. I'll not use KDE 4 anymore. What I do need is to check if have a fault in my system or not.
I can't see the benefit of keeping KDE4, do you see any?. I see benefits on new KDE software and the new QT. I can't see why hidpi matters at all, given that the KDE4 is no better than plasma.
 
Old 08-26-2018, 06:55 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
Contrary, I plan to use a KDE software on the entire foreseeable future: KDE4

And I will not care about Plasma5 IF people does not try to push it down through my throat assuming in their mightiness that everyone is wet only thinking of it.

I will not even care if Slackware replaces KDE4 with Plasma5, IF that is done in a way which permit me to NOT install it at all.

And probably this will be the way chosen for future by our BDFL, who stated that even himself contemplate disappointed the eventual pollution of L series by Plasma5.

IF every piece of Plasma5 will be dumped in the KDE series pit, and myself I can avoid install it at all, starting from Qt5, I will be very happy. And I will not care less than about that Plasma5.
How's that good for you? or for anyone else? why is KDE4 the best option between the two? I would love to understand it, even if I have another opinion.
 
Old 08-27-2018, 02:00 AM   #22
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It would be awesome if you got your system working more to your liking. I hope this discussion as helped.
I've found a bunch of settings to makes things looks a bit better, but none involves display scale. If I apply any display scaling factor, that bizarre things happens again. I think I haven't overlooked any important setting related to display scaling: driver acceleration, compositor backend, antialias, I even measured my screen with a real rule to get its exact dimension and type precise DPI figures. But nope, display scale messes with UI elements in a way that's very unpleasant to see. And now I've tested on two different machines (the old i3-2365M HD Graphics 2nd gen notebook and the new i5-5300U HD Graphics 5500), although the old one I had to force stuff as its screen is just HD type (1366x768x14"), not Full HD like the new one. Anyway, results are the same with the scale factor applied. So, no, this is not a hardware issue and I keep my very first opinion.

As for the settings, here's what I've changed:
  • System Settings:
    • Display and Monitor > Display Scale: 1
    • Fonts: Noto Sans 10 (small 8, fixed width Hack 10), forced 120 DPI.
    • Application Style > GTK > Font: Noto Sans 10.
  • Application specific:
    • VirtualBox: removed QT_SCALE_FACTOR=X
    • Zoom (video conference app): removed QT_SCALE_FACTOR=X
    • SDDM: kept -dpi 120 (matching fonts)

It looks like a pixel perfect thing now, although some elements are clearly disproportional to the rest of the UI as they lack scaling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdiazlo View Post
I used to have a script which did all that for me. It wasn't more than ./xrand.sh on my setup. And I think there might be better ways to do it know, like an option to kwin or something, I might give it a try.
Don't bother... even if it produce the expected result, I won't run it anyway just to fix a black border around a workspace that should never be there in the first place. Every couple of years I spend a great deal of time tailoring my environment to my needs. Daily hacking is last thing I wan't to deal with in the time in between.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdiazlo View Post
I can't see the benefit of keeping KDE4, do you see any?. I see benefits on new KDE software and the new QT. I can't see why hidpi matters at all, given that the KDE4 is no better than plasma.
Well, try to say to a photographer, a designer, a video editor, a musician or a developer used to the Mac OS UI perfection that HiDPI doesn't matter at all... For a product, any user is important (at least they should be).

The benefit of keeping KDE4 is damage control. Nobody expects KDE 4 doing great in the HiDPI field, although it could, really dunno. But anyone may expect Plasma 5 (see, @Darth Vader, I know the name) being perfect at it, which it is not.
 
Old 08-27-2018, 04:00 AM   #23
gdiazlo
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So you fiddled more with your settings and now looks good. Good to hear.

I don't see how a Mac user would care about Slackware in any way. How's OSX related to KDE4 and Slackware? And I don't see how a Mac user, or any user, would prefer KDE4 over KDE5 for anything. That's the thing I'm interested on. I can't see the damage KDE5 does in respect to KDE4. It does not look like a damage for you, why do you think it will be a damage for anyone? I think there should be someone who can explain this, so the rest of us who want KDE5 on SAlackware can understand it.

If I understand you correctly, KDE4 is better because nobody expect anything good about it in relation to KDE5?

To a photographer or a videographer pixels and colors are important, but their applications are also very important. It is difficult how anyone will ditch lightroom or capture one and switch to Linux. But there are some who did it. And I doubt very much they would like to use different DPI monitors with a different color grading and resolutions for their work. I'm pretty sure they will prefer work on one calibrated monitor. I'm an amateur and I prefer it by far.
 
Old 08-27-2018, 04:23 AM   #24
Darth Vader
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The KDE4 is better than today Plasma5 in so many ways. At least for me.

Let's ignore that Plasma5 does not managed to work properly with my hardware until recently and its many bugs and lacks.

I will show you something extremely useful present on KDE4, but still lacking in Plasma5:

Over time I convinced to use Slackware around 10 of my friends. No, they aren't Slackware Users, but rather Slackware users. In the sense that no one knows the noble art of console, how to compile kernels and so on. Horror! They have no clue even about BASH! And they have no intention to learn about it.

I am the one who installed Slackware in their computers (honestly they being scared by encrypting malware from Windows) and their computer just boot in a particular user and KDE4. They use their computers just for browsing, listening songs and watching videos. And certainly, no one has intention to learn how Linux works.

The KDE4 has a very useful feature: when you try to shutdown or reboot the computer, and someone is connected to your computer, it will warn you and stop the sequence. My friends are instructed that if they see this particular behavior, immediately to leave the computer alone and to call me, because maybe I am the one who do meantime maintenance to their computers. E.g. updating kernels. And a reboot over my head is more than prone to leave them with no bootable operating system.

Yes, I do some light maintenance for them, as a friendship/community help.

Guess what? Even the today Plasma5 5.13.4 does not have this feature. IF I will install in their computers the glorified and much acclaimed Plasma5, will be a recipe for disaster.

Imagine that those crazy hippies from KDE, in a day when they missed somehow to smoke their usual 15 daily joints, arrived to conclusion to add back this feature on (to be released) Plasma5 5.14.0, after only around 70 (seventy) stable releases!

BTW, I talk about the thing from the attached screenshot.

As bottom line, this was just an example - I can continue with the Plasma5 lacks, misfeatures and issues worth of around 100 pages, but nobody will care...
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Last edited by Darth Vader; 08-27-2018 at 04:48 AM.
 
Old 08-27-2018, 06:48 AM   #25
gdiazlo
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Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
The KDE4 has a very useful feature: when you try to shutdown or reboot the computer, and someone is connected to your computer, it will warn you and stop the sequence.
That's a nice feature. I can't see it in default Slackware 14.2, how is it configured? Also that shutdown screen is not the default in 14.2 should I test it on current?

This is what I get with the default slackware 14.2 KDE4 install with two users logged in (one ssh remote connection, and one local): https://i.imgur.com/JlG0QEJ.png

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
Imagine that those crazy hippies from KDE, in a day when they missed somehow to smoke their usual 15 daily joints, arrived to conclusion to add back this feature on (to be released) Plasma5 5.14.0, after only around 70 (seventy) stable releases!
You can save this opinion for yourself. It does not add value to anything or anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
BTW, I talk about the thing from the attached screenshot.

As bottom line, this was just an example - I can continue with the Plasma5 lacks, misfeatures and issues worth of around 100 pages, but nobody will care...
As you can see, I do care. But I suppose your opinion about KDE developers might make people don't care about what you have to say.

Did you document any of those 100 pages? Did you communicated them to anyone? If you want them solved, the best approach on my opinion is to participate in the KDE community making them aware of these issues you have. May be they aren't aware of those 100 pages :?

On the other hand, did you tried to solve them or find workarounds? These workarounds and configurations can be shared with the community to create a better experience for everyone. Because in the end, the community is not people that works for us, is us.

I'll take a look at this feature you want and see if I can find a workaround. But I will need first how to configure the feature in KDE4 I suppose...
 
Old 08-27-2018, 08:25 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
The KDE4 has a very useful feature: when you try to shutdown or reboot the computer, and someone is connected to your computer, it will warn you and stop the sequence. My friends are instructed that if they see this particular behavior, immediately to leave the computer alone and to call me, because maybe I am the one who do meantime maintenance to their computers. E.g. updating kernels. And a reboot over my head is more than prone to leave them with no bootable operating system.
Just a random guess without any evidence that it's actually true, but I wonder if this is one of those things that would work if we were using systemd?
 
Old 08-27-2018, 11:31 AM   #27
Darth Vader
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdiazlo View Post
That's a nice feature. I can't see it in default Slackware 14.2, how is it configured? Also that shutdown screen is not the default in 14.2 should I test it on current?

This is what I get with the default slackware 14.2 KDE4 install with two users logged in (one ssh remote connection, and one local): https://i.imgur.com/JlG0QEJ.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by montagdude View Post
Just a random guess without any evidence that it's actually true, but I wonder if this is one of those things that would work if we were using systemd?
Believe or NOT, this is a KDE4 feature present on standard Slackware (either 14.2 or -current) while using KDM and (of course) the runlevel 4, and behaves like you see in the attached screenshot.

BTW, I used a stock Slackware 14.2 (with no additions) on a VirtualBox machine - to permit me to take easy a screenshot. With a standard user logged in desktop and root logged in the second (local) console.

This confirmation dialog about aborting active sessions appears after you execute the confirmation (or timeout completes) of reboot or shutdown, and doing "Cancel" sends you into KDM's login screen instead of executing the power cycle.

There's also a funny part: a standard user is fully capable to abort a root login session, but this is another story...

Anyway, this is just an example of one of many many things which are not (yet?) implemented in Plasma5. At least, this one probably will come back in Plasma 5.14.0
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Last edited by Darth Vader; 08-27-2018 at 12:19 PM.
 
Old 08-27-2018, 12:37 PM   #28
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So you fiddled more with your settings and now looks good. Good to hear.
It does look good, yes, at the cost of many hours of fiddling around until I disable the solely function that is supposed to handle UI elements properly, namely display scale.

This is not an issue to me as this is what I do for living and I've been on Linux for 24 years now. Anyway, I rest assured that this is going to be quite frustrating for anyone expecting a pixel perfect UI and that's coming from any other platform, even Ubuntu, Fedora, Arch or any other Linux flavor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdiazlo View Post
I don't see how a Mac user would care about Slackware in any way. How's OSX related to KDE4 and Slackware? And I don't see how a Mac user, or any user, would prefer KDE4 over KDE5 for anything. That's the thing I'm interested on. I can't see the damage KDE5 does in respect to KDE4. It does not look like a damage for you, why do you think it will be a damage for anyone? I think there should be someone who can explain this, so the rest of us who want KDE5 on SAlackware can understand it.
Well, over the years I've seen many Mac users (helped a few in person) migrating (from System 7 to X) to the whole spectrum of Linux distributions, including Slackware. Your lack of vision should not be used as a benchmark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdiazlo View Post
If I understand you correctly, KDE4 is better because nobody expect anything good about it in relation to KDE5?
Then you don't understood it at all. What I'm saying over and over again in this thread is quite clear by now: Plasma5 has issues with HiDPI handling. People using HiDPI systems could face troubles, and this can be quite frustrating to that people. It doesn't matter if KDE4 handles it better or not. I'm not talking about KDE4 as my target is Plasma5. What I do know is that KDE4 has no display scale feature, hence nobody can complain about a non-feature not working as expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdiazlo View Post
To a photographer or a videographer pixels and colors are important, but their applications are also very important. It is difficult how anyone will ditch lightroom or capture one and switch to Linux. But there are some who did it. And I doubt very much they would like to use different DPI monitors with a different color grading and resolutions for their work. I'm pretty sure they will prefer work on one calibrated monitor. I'm an amateur and I prefer it by far.
As surprisingly as it may look to you, there are creative professionals using Linux (even Slackware) as their main platform. Again, your lack of vision should not be used as a benchmark. Plasma5 is a product available to the general public. 'General' here means general as in the broadest possible audience. It really don't matter if you 'doubt' or 'don't see' this or that.

Well, as much amusing your curiosity and the hell lot of questions you ask may be, I'll end our discussion here. You made your point clear: you expect Plasma5 to be part of Slackware 15 sooner than later. I don't. I stick with Slackware's 'it will be ready... when it's ready'. In the end of the day, Patrick has the final word and I support whatever decision he may come with.

But please, get this straight:

IMHO, Alien Bob's Ktown (the packaging process) is more than ready for a prime time. The problem lies in the packaged software.
 
Old 08-27-2018, 12:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
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May be they aren't aware of those 100 pages :?
To be honest, I believe they are fully aware about all those issues, just that they does not care.

I think that those people does not work for the user needs, but rather they see their software as something like a show-case for Qt, which after all get its money from the automotive industry. And they write code just to write code and to justify their payments.

I know, I know, the Open Source is great, BUT a software of dimension of Plasma5 cannot be written by a bunch of volunteers. Because it is just too big.

Someone had to pay a number of programmers which work for it as a job. And like I said, they should justify their activity, that's why they dump everything every 5 years, and rewrite everything from scratch.

Cares someone that a very useful feature, invented by themselves a lot of years ago, is not (yet?) implemented? Cares someone that KWin effects does not play well with NVIDIA graphics cards? Cares someone that those KWin effects loads several times more the graphics cards, while doing nothing useful in plus?

I for one I believe that they do not care.

They care instead about the number of lines of source code written monthly, they care about their wet dreams of entering on the tablets market (hence their obsession with Wayland), they care about many other things. BUT, the (traditional) Linux users are the last one.

And I am afraid that they most care about the (next to be) Qt6 release on A.D. 2020, which for them is a brilliant occasion to dump again everything and to write Plasma6 from scratch. So many source code to be written!

Last edited by Darth Vader; 08-27-2018 at 04:11 PM.
 
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Old 08-27-2018, 02:37 PM   #30
gdiazlo
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To be honest, I believe they are fully aware about all those issues, just that they do not care.
I understand your sentiment. But they probably aren't aware. Their teams probably change all the time, and features of past releases are forgotten. In this particular case, KDM is deprecated in favor of SDDM, so the old features might get discarded if no one says anything. But they give us tools to open issues and report problems. We can send them information, patches, etc. And all that it's not a guarantee of anything. But they might care and consider their users feedback. We can't know for sure until they close an issue with a "we don't care about this issue".

Also, the information about bugs and missing features is very valuable for the KDE4 and KDE5 users, Slackware included. Sharing those problems is a great way to identify what needs to be solved, what workarounds there are, etc. Why do not expose them?

Including KDE5 in Slackware is not a risky operation. It is already used by a couple of people (I guess alienBob has some numbers about it), and encouraging people to try Slackware-current, and KDE5 and report bugs, issues and information is valuable for the whole Slackware community. The thing that is not valuable is non-constructive complaining, or free attacks to other people.

I'm glad two issues have been described in this thread. One with workarounds, and the other we will see. It would have been easier if the issues were described objectively, but this is a forum after all, not a bug tracker :-D.
 
  


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