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Old 08-20-2018, 11:48 AM   #31
montagdude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a4z View Post
neither is it your trolling place, even if you think you need to run a personal crusade against me.
You are just OT, out of context and just do claims. No content at all.
It becomes more and more obvious that you just post to attack me with allegation, no idea why you think it is a good idea to be so offensive, but please stop this.




so far you did not bring any "highly experienced information", but more a flame and a somehow ridiculous winmodem comparison.

anyway, remember, my original post was a reaction of a problem description I could not reproduce on the same hardware, and a post of Jeebizz who asked if the next release will be easier to go completely free of pulse-audio.
but continue ignoring this if it helps you with attacking me. you 2, orbea and enorbet ignoring kindly my post just to run your stupid personal attacks. maybe you need to let out your frustration? well, feel free to do so. if you need this to feel better ....I subscribe now from this thread
There has been exactly one person in this thread being hostile and making personal attacks. The people responding to you have been remarkably controlled considering your posts.

If PulseAudio works fine for you, who cares what other people do, and why would you be against Pat making it easier for them to have their preference? Did I miss some announcement where Pat said PulseAudio would no longer be the standard in 15.0? I use and like PA, and I'm not the least bit worried about such a thing occurring.
 
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Old 08-20-2018, 09:55 PM   #32
enorbet
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Re: my previous 3 posts/responses...

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4z View Post
so far you did not bring any "highly experienced information", but more a flame and a somehow ridiculous winmodem comparison.

anyway, remember, my original post was a reaction of a problem description I could not reproduce on the same hardware, and a post of Jeebizz who asked if the next release will be easier to go completely free of pulse-audio.
but continue ignoring this if it helps you with attacking me. you 2, orbea and enorbet ignoring kindly my post just to run your stupid personal attacks. maybe you need to let out your frustration? well, feel free to do so. if you need this to feel better ....I subscribe now from this thread
Is English not your native tongue, a4z? That might explain why you repeatedly misunderstand and misrepresent me. I can't imagine why you assume I'm attacking you. In fact it is now a matter of record that I attacked your opinions, not you personally. Admittedly there is some overlap with Darth's posts since it seems he agrees with you and my posts attempted to address all the issues discussed in this thread that propose that ALSA is somehow "going back", inferior to Pulse, or no longer needed, not just yours.

Ultimately it is as OP entitled this thread which is giving thanks for providing the ALSA-only option to which some seem to feel the need to express negativity to both ALSA and Slackware developers, especially Patrick. This is what I am responding to. I am ignoring your original post because it is a tangent, if not Off Topic, and involves both hardware and software that I don't have nor prefer to have, so I can't speak from experience on that topic. I chose the one post as is my right especially since I quoted it to be absolutely clear as to what I was responding to.

You started with the "back to ALSA? Is this a joke?" to which I explained it is an option not a requirement and one appreciated by audiophiles, especially those who have good hardware and record and edit. I wasn't "talking through my hat" nor was I trying to wow or intimidate anyone with formulae or some ersatz evidence of my training and skill. It wasn't me tooting my own horn it was simply to point out that some people have requirements, real requirements not bat ears, a joke, or delusional, just exacting.

IMHO it is counterproductive to actually communicating a concept to get technical just to flaunt technicality. Albert Einstein is quoted as relating "If you can't explain a concept to a six year old, you don't really understand it yourself" and while that may not always be accurate, where it applies it is profoundly accurate and it is my regarded opinion it applies here.

Bottom Line my responses are a cost/benefit analysis explaining that some use cases enjoy no benefit from Pulse and are "taxed" with considerable "cost". It is about the subject of this thread. It is not about me nor is it about you.

Last edited by enorbet; 08-20-2018 at 10:05 PM.
 
Old 08-20-2018, 10:17 PM   #33
hitest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Ultimately it is as OP entitled this thread which is giving thanks for providing the ALSA-only option which some seem to feel the need to express negativity to both ALSA and Slackware developers, especially Patrick.
I apologize if anyone thought that I was lobbying for an "Alsa-only" Slackware. That was not my intention at all. I am celebrating the fact that Pat now includes a directory in /extra that has everything you need to set-up Alsa as your default sound system software if you want to do that.
Pulse Audio is and continues to be the default sound system in Slackware. Here's a quote from the man himself in the current changelog about all of this.

Quote:
Thu Apr 26 01:34:12 UTC 2018
Don't like PulseAudio? Well... I hear you. Personally, it works for me, and it
makes it easier to switch between multiple audio inputs and outputs compared
to using plain ALSA. PulseAudio got off to a rocky start in the Linux world,
where it found itself adopted before it was ready (it was even billed on its
own website at the time as "the software that currently breaks your audio").
It's my opinion that the reputation that PulseAudio acquired due to problems
back then isn't deserved any longer. If your hardware supports the sampling
rate of the audio data you're trying to play, PulseAudio will not resample it
(and if your hardware doesn't support that rate, resampling can hardly be
avoided). The increased latency has not been an issue here. Nevertheless, I
recognize that there are use cases where PulseAudio is still a detriment.
While I don't generally recommend removing PulseAudio, I'm not going to cram
it down your throat. So, if you'd like to be rid of PulseAudio, head over to
the new extra/pure-alsa-system directory and follow the instructions in the
README file there, and you'll have a PulseAudio-free pure ALSA system.
Thanks to orbea who sent me a small patch for the mpg123.SlackBuild so that
it would detect the lack of PulseAudio and not try to build in support, which
got me to thinking about all of this. Cheers! :-)
 
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Old 08-21-2018, 03:10 AM   #34
a4z
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Is English not your native tongue, a4z?
of course not

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
You started with the "back to ALSA? Is this a joke?"
this was a reply to post #11, where Jeebizz asked

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeebizz View Post
... - the next release of Slackware it will be easier to go completely free of pulse-audio?. ...
and this is the context that you, and especially orbea, have ignoring, (beside that I also told the OP that I have no problem with basically the same hardware, what is also total on topic and helpful)
If you would be the same way on topic as I you would bring concrete reproducible examples where ALSA is much better that you can not have the same/very similar result with a proper pulse configured system, or tell me that REAPER needs a pure ALSA system (dont know if this is the case), or something similar...



And orbea who starts, btw the second time now, intimately with a post containing an allegation and an insult on personal level.
and you tell me that is not hostile?

@orbea, the last time I ignored you was just for one thread where you behaved the same, with creating lies and misquotes of what I have written, now I will ignore you for ever. I wish you would do the same with my posts, this would spare this place a lot of trash you produce. You will of course not do this because your personal crusade is too important for you and you psyche, but please, orba, understand, the links your therapist gave you where for the reason that you apply them for your own purpose, not spread them on various places in the internet to train you passive aggressive provocations and trolling. You are, btw, a bad troll anyway. So lets see if this works, I ignore you , you ignore me, and we spare this place text trash, I can do this, can you?
 
Old 08-21-2018, 06:07 AM   #35
Lysander666
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This is a great move by PV. Just for a particular scenario, a4z, you may be interested to know that one of my three Slack machines has Pulse disabled. Why? This is because it's a netbook and the rather cheap onboard sound unit doesn't pack much of a punch. I would have used Pulse if there was an option for an EQ to improve this, but the EQ for Pulse was deprecated. Therefore, I have disabled Pulse altogether and just run everything through ALSA using dmix and alsaequal. This gives me much more control over the sound quality than stock Pulse would.

You may say, well, that's no reason to disable Pulse, but Pulse has other ideas. It likes to take control of my volume button bindings, which causes conflicts and sometimes stops them working. I've therefore re-bound them through amixer and disabled Pulse to stop any more issues.

You can see some of the other issues I've experienced with Pulse on the netbook here: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...ns-4175626284/

Like I say, Pulse is absolutely fine on my other two machines, but in this instance it's a hardware-based issue that makes me use ALSA only.

Last edited by Lysander666; 08-21-2018 at 06:08 AM.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 07:29 AM   #36
a4z
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
This is a great move by PV. Just for a particular scenario, a4z, you may be interested to know that one of my three Slack machines has Pulse disabled. Why? This is because it's a netbook and the rather cheap onboard sound unit doesn't pack much of a punch. I would have used Pulse if there was an option for an EQ to improve this, but the EQ for Pulse was deprecated. Therefore, I have disabled Pulse altogether and just run everything through ALSA using dmix and alsaequal. This gives me much more control over the sound quality than stock Pulse would.

You may say, well, that's no reason to disable Pulse, but Pulse has other ideas. It likes to take control of my volume button bindings, which causes conflicts and sometimes stops them working. I've therefore re-bound them through amixer and disabled Pulse to stop any more issues.

You can see some of the other issues I've experienced with Pulse on the netbook here: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...ns-4175626284/

Like I say, Pulse is absolutely fine on my other two machines, but in this instance it's a hardware-based issue that makes me use ALSA only.
I have and never had anything against people that run a pure ALSA system, thoguht so far I never have seen a usecase that really proves the requirements. So until now I just see disadvantages in such a seutp.

Also, a lot of info I validated from the "I need ALSA" people is simply not correct, like OPs notebook requirement for ALSA, or your deprecation of EQ you write about.
https://github.com/pulseaudio/pulsea...ualizer-sink.c
was updated last time some weeks ago,
here how to activate it
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php..._on_every_boot

also qpaeq is under active development, look at the history
https://github.com/pulseaudio/pulsea...rc/utils/qpaeq

but maybe you meant something different when you wrote about a the EQ for Pulse that was deprecated?

anyway, as said, I never had something against pure ALSA system and just that I answered a question that if this should be a default solution is a bad idea does not imply this. That I would find an onboard multilib compiler more useful for me does also not imply I have something against ALSA systems. That I have something against ALSA systems is an phantasm construct of some people here, that's all.
For me everyone can mess up their system as they want, I just some fix some facts, like a t410 needs ALSA, or EQ deprecated, no idea why some self declared hardcore guys here are triggered through that and think they need to spread rumours and attack me
 
Old 08-21-2018, 10:09 AM   #37
hitest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
Like I say, Pulse is absolutely fine on my other two machines, but in this instance it's a hardware-based issue that makes me use ALSA only.
Exactly. I have the same experience. Pulse is fine on 4 work stations, and works intermittently on the 5th work station. I am grateful that Pat has reintroduced Alsa as an option.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 11:55 AM   #38
mralk3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitest View Post
I'm running Slackware64-current on five units. One of my units, an older T410 Thinkpad, has difficulty with Pulse Audio. The sound will randomly cut-out.
Sound works well again after removing Pulse Audio and installing Alsa as per the instructions in the README located in /extra/pure-alsa-system.
Many thanks to Pat and the entire Slackware Team for adding the alsa software in /extra/pure-alsa-system! Very grateful.
I agree! Thanks to Pat V. and team yet again.

I am not sure what all the debate and arguing in this thread is all about. I certainly didn't read much passed the first reply of a4z because I just knew what kind of thread this was going to turn into. Pulse and Alsa are both possible in Slackware-current so there is no reason to discuss it.
 
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:04 PM   #39
Gordie
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LOL - It could be worse. I tried some BSD operating systems and found that BSD doesn't support my sound cards on either my laptop or my desktop. No sound. Silence.

FWIW I use whatever is the default and appreciate it for what it does
 
Old 08-22-2018, 11:35 AM   #40
enorbet
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OK a4Z, it seems you won't just accept my expertise, research and training regarding the issue of flexibility, control and low-latency so here's a quote from a pro article that is, BTW, extremely happy with Pulseaudio in general and not just another rant/wash. You can find it here if you'd like the full read. https://freedompenguin.com/articles/...et-full-roses/

Here is a relevant quote snippet

Quote:
Originally Posted by
PulseAudio doesn’t know JACK

As I touched on previously, PulseAudio is a sound server for casual users. It allows folks to route audio from applications and devices to specifically designated sound cards. Then we have another sound server called the Jack Audio Connection Kit or JACK for short. JACK is awesome for routing inputs and outputs with various audio hardware/sound cards. In recent years however, it’s been targeted to a a smaller subset of the Linux community – those needing prosumer and professional audio solutions.

Casual user: PulseAudio is perfect for users looking to simply route software audio from one card to another (such as a USB headset).

Professional audio:
JACK wins all day long with its low latency feature set offering full audio control to send various inputs to various outputs.
Please do yourself the favor of being realistic and not imagining the NBA might be better off to hire more guys that are 5 foot 2. There are levels, even on Mt. Olympus. You're happy with Pulse because you are a casual user. Some people are Pros. Oh and please don't bother mentioning that a special version of Jack has been made for Pulseaudio. Jack2 lacks some important features enabled in Jack that cripple it not to mention now we have 3 layers of software instead of just 1.

FWIW because MS deemed it so important to be able to compete with Macs that used to dominate Pro Sound it enabled the audio layer to have direct access to hardware, bypassing the preemptive nature of the OpSys (yeah the same thing responsible for ye olde BSOD, but substantially improved now) to achieve low latency on a par with Mac and Linux. Latency is by no means a trivial issue. In fact it's HUGE.
 
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:39 AM   #41
FTIO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peumo View Post
In 14.2, you can always make a little modification to the official Slackbuilds and recompile packages without pulse. Not that hard!
It doesn't always work either. I've tried every way that's been announced on the forums, and for the most part they are not that easy nor little and it's simply way too much jumping through hoops to have something (ALSA) on my system that 'just worked' and worked extremely well compared to this escaped abortion known as pulseaudio.

Luckily I keep 14.1 on another HDD so that when I want to listen to my music and hear it the way it's supposed to sound, I just switch over...far simpler than the supposed 'easy/little mods'.
 
Old 08-22-2018, 12:02 PM   #42
Darth Vader
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Dear audiophiles with ears of bat, did you even heard about Real-Time Kernels? https://rt.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page

This friend of mine, who is certainly an audiophile and a professional, says that a Real-Time Kernel is a must have, end of line. Everything else is amateurism for the bat-folks.

BTW, he also says that the PulseAudio latency is configurable. To be honest, I don't bothered to research about that myself.

PS. But about the Open Sound System (OSS) did you heard? Apparently the pros use it instead of ALSA which was made right for the "casual user".

Last edited by Darth Vader; 08-22-2018 at 01:02 PM.
 
Old 08-22-2018, 02:15 PM   #43
a4z
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
OK a4Z, it seems you won't just accept my expertise, research and training regarding the issue of flexibility, ....
in short, no, for 3 short reasons

1) The jack documentation gives more options than a pulse free system
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US...with_JACK.html
https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaud...er_PulseOnJack

2) this is known since very long time
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US...with_JACK.html

3) has nothing to do with my OP, that the t410 hardware does not require a pulse free system to work, and that a pulse free Slackware 15 is a bad idea. or anything else I have written.

you discuss with me issues your, or some other users here, fantasy brought up.

but you bring just more incorrect information, thanks for confirming what I have written about the quality of info of you hardcore guys.
Note that this still has nothing to do with your pulse free system, if you want to have it, fine.
What I do not like are the rumors, bad ideas and wrong info some people spread. Why some people here think they need to critisise me for this, and want to prove me something, no idea
actually, for this info fixes I brought here, and above, someone should say thank you, it says a lot about your guys that you prefer to just write against me, and this just because and without a reason

Edit, but I found one good thing in the article you linked to, enorbet, so thanks for this!
Quote:
I promise you, most people struggling with PulseAudio are over-thinking the problem.
I hope you have read the article you refer to to the end ;-)

Last edited by a4z; 08-22-2018 at 02:31 PM. Reason: info added
 
Old 08-22-2018, 07:48 PM   #44
khronosschoty
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Just because you find out that one of the people who were having issues with pulse and concluded it was a hardware issue was wrong, does not mean that everyone who makes such a conclusion is wrong. On my macbook pro mid 2010 13" pulse audio works most of the time, but it still frequently has issues often enough to make me not like it. I've had it crash where I lacked the skills to restore it to operating state until I rebooted the system. I've had odd cracking sound noise and other things that I never am also unable to fix and figure out why without a reboot. Again most of the time it works fine... the difference is I never have a single issue with a pure alsa set up on it. Its my understanding that pulse is supposed to be easy just work... well if that is the case, at least on my macbook, its a failure.

Edit: I think its fine that in 15 Pulse will remain the standard ootb, but, I think it should always be left as optional for several reasons (reasons I don't care to go into in this post).

Last edited by khronosschoty; 08-22-2018 at 07:53 PM.
 
Old 08-22-2018, 08:24 PM   #45
Drakeo
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It is all good just a tool. Programs like firefox and browsers only build against headers. That's what we all do. That way when pulse is not found nothing happens. Pulse is a server. The headers just build objects that can use pulse audio. some programs like I guess bluetooth require it because it is part of the actual build. ALSA is base.
it real close to the kernel. You can build jackd and it will compile against the headers also.
this is way behind when I get back to the states and have time I will bring it up to current
https://github.com/Drakeo/jack-pulse-sink

Last edited by Drakeo; 08-22-2018 at 08:34 PM.
 
  


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