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Old 10-21-2014, 07:26 PM   #46
harryhaller
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Systemd means essentially the death of Slackware. Systemd is the first part of a project which will take over the whole of the gnu/linux system.

Lennart Poettering explains the whole project in this video:
http://www.montanalinux.org/video-systemd-as-core.html
of his talk given at the FOSS 2012 in Bangalore, India.
He says, right in the beginning, that he regards systemd as the start of Core OS.
In 2013 there appeared a distro of that name:
https://coreos.com/about/
Whether they are connected or just that Greg Kroah-Hartman grabbed the name before Poettering could legally claim, I don't know.

But please, watch the video and understand that systemd is not just "modernising" init, but is a clearly stated first step of a strategic move.

Listen to Poetering's own words - and then understand how significant the lock-in process is.

In any case - if Slackware adopts systemd - it will probably no longer exist in ten years. Systemd is about a uniforming process that will result in a system that will barely allow any individuality at its core. It's aim is to produce a common platform for user applications.

Slackware and other distros will only survive by developing in a different way. Only the large corporate distros will survive, with Debian as consolation for the "amateurs".

I, will certainly not use any distro with systemd because Linux is not just any-old-tool that does a job as some people are saying - it is something much more. Thus I would not use Slackware with systemd, but would hope that a fork would be made or else I would move to gentoo, crux etc.

This is a very serious point in the life of slackware, which I have enjoyed using since release 8.0

I cannot see Pat using systemd, since he must be aware of the significance of this matter - but for personal reasons etc. or pressure from the team etc. - who knows?, he may decide otherwise. That would mean the end of an era for the whole of Linux - let's remember the history of Slackware is a key part of the history of Linux.

Please watch the video above and start thinking beyond just technical convenience - because others are and they are NOT your friends.
 
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:41 PM   #47
harryhaller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
But since Mozilla, and a few other browsers, allow bookmarks to be moved around the menu, most-used bookmarks can be moved to the top of list, making a favourites feature unnecessary. So I do not know how great an idea it actualy is.
Favorites are small files which are place in directories - that is what is unique about them. thus if you can store the individual bookmarks in the same directory as other files relating to that matter.

eg, download a pdf file and have the bookmark of where you got it from in the same directory.

Have everything about a subject, including the bookmarks, in the same directory - instead of totally different place.

Being able to use the same bookmarks for any browser.

This is assumes that you use a file manager as your base program and like to keep your disk properly organised

Clicking on a bookmark then kicks of a script which then opens a tab on with an env defined browser.

Yes - it's far more powerful than the html - now database - bookmark file
 
Old 10-21-2014, 08:23 PM   #48
ReaperX7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harryhaller View Post
Systemd means essentially the death of Slackware. Systemd is the first part of a project which will take over the whole of the gnu/linux system.

Lennart Poettering explains the whole project in this video:
http://www.montanalinux.org/video-systemd-as-core.html
of his talk given at the FOSS 2012 in Bangalore, India.
He says, right in the beginning, that he regards systemd as the start of Core OS.
In 2013 there appeared a distro of that name:
https://coreos.com/about/
Whether they are connected or just that Greg Kroah-Hartman grabbed the name before Poettering could legally claim, I don't know.

But please, watch the video and understand that systemd is not just "modernising" init, but is a clearly stated first step of a strategic move.

Listen to Poetering's own words - and then understand how significant the lock-in process is.

In any case - if Slackware adopts systemd - it will probably no longer exist in ten years. Systemd is about a uniforming process that will result in a system that will barely allow any individuality at its core. It's aim is to produce a common platform for user applications.

Slackware and other distros will only survive by developing in a different way. Only the large corporate distros will survive, with Debian as consolation for the "amateurs".

I, will certainly not use any distro with systemd because Linux is not just any-old-tool that does a job as some people are saying - it is something much more. Thus I would not use Slackware with systemd, but would hope that a fork would be made or else I would move to gentoo, crux etc.

This is a very serious point in the life of slackware, which I have enjoyed using since release 8.0

I cannot see Pat using systemd, since he must be aware of the significance of this matter - but for personal reasons etc. or pressure from the team etc. - who knows?, he may decide otherwise. That would mean the end of an era for the whole of Linux - let's remember the history of Slackware is a key part of the history of Linux.

Please watch the video above and start thinking beyond just technical convenience - because others are and they are NOT your friends.
To be honest man, you're preaching to the choir, and the church is empty. Very few of us are willing to stand against this monstrosity and others just want it for God knows what reason other than the fact they feel Slackware doesn't work well enough for their needs, but Oh!... they still want Slackware, and feel the one's who don't want or need systemd are just stupid, uncool, and anti-progress (sound familiar?). We get bullied, beaten up, chastised, and even muscled out because too few people are willing to stand up.
 
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Old 10-21-2014, 08:30 PM   #49
_gin
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If you watch debconf 2014 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mg5_gxNXTo) you may notice that Linus says several times that he wants the same binaries available/installable on any Linux distro. Systemd tends to answer to his wish.
From this point, If you think a bit further then you don't need dozens of Linux distros, one is enough.
In my view, systemd is a majeur card to reach that monopoly. It's no coincidence that Redhat, the biggest Linux distro, is behind systemd.
 
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Old 10-21-2014, 09:10 PM   #50
genss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _gin View Post
If you watch debconf 2014 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mg5_gxNXTo) you may notice that Linus says several times that he wants the same binaries available/installable on any Linux distro. Systemd tends to answer to his wish.
i have no idea how you got to that conclusion
will have to rewatch that video some time, maybe i missed something


for the record i already said this to a "fedora community manager":

closed source binaries already work on any major distro without problems (steam, dwarf fortress, maya, vmware, etc)
except RHEL 6
open source things are open source
even binary firefox and virtualbox work np

all you need is to decompress it somewhere (like /usr/local) and make a .desktop file
that's it
if you want it from a command line, just make a link
(most have installers that do this)

and to expand;
i sincerely doubt that any company that makes a professional program would make it require anything from that piece of..

edit:
ye, i remember this video
Ryan C. Gordon did a good presentation where he says basically what i said
that it is no problem (he even made an installer for free)

thinking about it.. it is probably not what you meant
you meant the whole shared library thing, no ?
steam ships their own and most of the time it's not hard to just make a static binary

il leave this here anyway

Last edited by genss; 10-21-2014 at 09:22 PM.
 
Old 10-21-2014, 09:50 PM   #51
_gin
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Originally Posted by genss View Post
i have no idea how you got to that conclusion
Because Linus explains that at the moment, you have to compile and recompile softwares on Linux each time a new release is made, would It be the whole distro or only the main libraries. If a program is not available for your distro then you're good to fire the compiler. He says, on Windows and Mac you can compile your prog once and your prog is compatible with many releases. He wishes that problem solved and according to this post (http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-...x-systems.html) this is what systemd is currently aiming. Systemd is not "only" an init process anymore.

Last edited by _gin; 10-21-2014 at 09:56 PM.
 
Old 10-21-2014, 10:35 PM   #52
ReaperX7
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That's nice but only if Linux had it's own OS and toolkit to begin with, and it never has, but that would require that glibc be effectively replaced and the entire GNU based OS that underlines GNU/Linux be effectively removed in favor of proprietary tools similar to FreeBSD. However, the userland of UNIX software requires that if you do this, each port of the software would have to be patched for that particular OS.

What I'm saying is, dropping in a new daemon and control system isn't going to fix the whole problem of unifying Linux into a single source OS, and is the wrong approach. In the right approach you have to take the entire OS, kernel, userland, etc. and redevelop it on the whole down into a single source OS from the kernel outward, just like BSD was developed.

Last edited by ReaperX7; 10-21-2014 at 11:13 PM.
 
Old 10-21-2014, 11:15 PM   #53
genss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _gin View Post
Because Linus explains that at the moment, you have to compile and recompile softwares on Linux each time a new release is made, would It be the whole distro or only the main libraries. If a program is not available for your distro then you're good to fire the compiler. He says, on Windows and Mac you can compile your prog once and your prog is compatible with many releases. He wishes that problem solved and according to this post (http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-...x-systems.html) this is what systemd is currently aiming. Systemd is not "only" an init process anymore.
that is not a solution to the problem that does not exist
and there are problems with that as software is not just shared libraries, it is also the IPC between processes

as i explained, i can run dwarf fortress on almost any distro
same with bigger programs like dota2 and maya
savagexr even has a proper installer and runs on any distro
LSB is about doing these kinds of things, not some database-like filesystem
SDL is about doing these kinds of things
opengl is about doing these kinds of things
even QT/GTK/EFL are about doing these kinds of things

linux is linux and all distros (mostly) come to the same as far as a program is concerned

i had my dose of these things for today
and please don't link me that blog ever again, ty

PS there are plenty of win98/xp programs that don't run on newer windows

Last edited by genss; 10-21-2014 at 11:25 PM.
 
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Old 10-22-2014, 01:21 AM   #54
a4z
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _gin View Post
Because Linus explains that at the moment, you have to compile and recompile softwares on Linux each time a new release is made, would It be the whole distro or only the main libraries. If a program is not available for your distro then you're good to fire the compiler. He says, on Windows and Mac you can compile your prog once and your prog is compatible with many releases. He wishes that problem solved and according to this post (http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-...x-systems.html) this is what systemd is currently aiming. Systemd is not "only" an init process anymore.
Linux has obviously not that much clue about C(doe not exist) and C++ programs on Windows
even if they run on more than one Window Version, as developer of software components you have to ship 2010, 2012, 2013 version in debug and release build, very funny. A small lib becomes so hunderds of MB if you also deliver the pdb files, what you mostly have to do
developing on Linux is super easy, compared to the mess on windows.

I think I read or saw a talk where it was mentioned that Red Hat has the idea the they are the major dirsto, and (software) vendors build just for them, and this is enough to have a runs on Linux label.
 
Old 10-22-2014, 01:26 AM   #55
ReaperX7
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You should see DirectX development if you want a mess...
 
Old 10-22-2014, 05:55 AM   #56
commandlinegamer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harryhaller View Post
It's aim is to produce a common platform for user applications.
I fail to see the problem with "a common platform for user applications." The OS is important but for the most part ought to be transparent to the user. Now systemd may or may not be the solution to the above. My concern currently is the integrity of the code.

Compare the situation with Daniel Bernstein's software. He released a variety of tools (qmail, daemontools, etc) which IIRC caused some controversy at the time.

Now those apps and libs may not comprise the core of an operating system, so in terms of complexity don't come that close the what systemd is trying to do, but at least he put his money where his mouth is, that is, offering rewards for bugs. His stuff may have been superceded, but as far as I'm aware, security issues were few and far between.
 
Old 10-22-2014, 07:31 AM   #57
Gerard Lally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _gin View Post
Because Linus explains that at the moment, you have to compile and recompile softwares on Linux each time a new release is made, would It be the whole distro or only the main libraries. If a program is not available for your distro then you're good to fire the compiler. He says, on Windows and Mac you can compile your prog once and your prog is compatible with many releases. He wishes that problem solved and according to this post (http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-...x-systems.html) this is what systemd is currently aiming. Systemd is not "only" an init process anymore.
That may be true, but my question is, why have so many people with post counts under 80 suddenly descended on this forum to promote systemd? Is it for fun or profit? And cui bono?

That's what I want to know.
 
Old 10-22-2014, 07:46 AM   #58
55020
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Originally Posted by gezley View Post
why have so many people with post counts under 80 suddenly descended on this forum to promote systemd?
fwiw, I have seen someone on HN allege that the call goes out on IRC to defend the empire.
See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8450247
 
Old 10-22-2014, 08:07 AM   #59
Gerard Lally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 55020 View Post
fwiw, I have seen someone on HN allege that the call goes out on IRC to defend the empire.
See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8450247
It's so sad. The same juveniles will be as quiet as church mice when Poettering's monoculture allows malware to run unimpeded on their Linux gaming boxes.
 
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Old 10-22-2014, 11:34 AM   #60
_gin
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Originally Posted by gezley View Post
That may be true, but my question is, why have so many people with post counts under 80 suddenly descended on this forum to promote systemd? Is it for fun or profit? And cui bono?

That's what I want to know.
You haven't named me for the wall of fame yet, but since I'm under the 80 posts belt, as a young Padawan in that matter, I'll answer you.

I've reacted to "harryhaller" message (Systemd means essentially the death of Slackware...) because I feel the same...and I don't want that to happen!

I usually don't take part in the forum, because I'm rather reluctant to write in English...but It's been one year since the last Slackware release, there's been little upgrades in "current" during that time frame, with very few clues from the Slackware team on the topic that I keep wondering "what's going on with all that systemd thing?"

I feel uneasy with Poettering at the systemd wheel, I feel uneasy with "big cash" Redhat behind, I feel uneasy with systemd goal and Its invasiveness.

I won't reveal my pedigree to you, just know that even If I'm "mister average", I'm a thirteen years old Linux user and Slackware addict since the 13.0 (bluewhite64 12.2 before).
 
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