I don't even look anymore who posts what complaint, because all people complain about are the same things over and over again.

1) if we have pulseaudio we also should've pam (and all variations of arguments why this should be the case)
2) go fix everything to use alsa instead of pulseaudio
3) go drop everything and the kitchen sink because I want my 90s back

All of those (including those I might have missed) are equally ludicrous and ignorant.

Believe it or not, but we *actually* care. In between all that bitching and moaning sometimes *are* valid bug reports that we'd like to take a look at and fix. You're (plural) not making it easy on us.

And Slackware was never a distribution that said, "You're safe from pulseaudio (or PAM, wayland, systemd, and the next controversial thing) here." So, the fact that you placed that "title" on Slackware yourself is not Pat's problem. And Pat's responses were about as meaningful as most of ivandi's posts talking about PAM (other than the ones where he's actually put his money where his mouth is and provided slackbuilds for people to use).

1. http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/tao...l/ch01s07.html

2. It's not simple. That's why it is (or was), as Alien Bob puts it, "a buggy piece of shit".

I want my simplicity back. If you think that's ludicrous I definitely should not be using Slackware.

I care too. Otherwise I wouldn't have said anything. If no one complains you might get the idea that everything is fine.

This may not be a bug report, but it is a valid complaint.

Indeed, I seem to have missed the whole point.

@ppr:kut: Seriously, you don't follow this thread to find meaningful bug reports, do you? :)

@others: Seriously, you would not post any serious bug report in this thread, would you? :)

@Soderlund: I see in your status that you use OpenBSD. This BSD's leader is well known for his sweet and patient answers to requests and mere questions. I hope you will find there all the gentleness you didn't find in the Slackware community. :)

@all: Look at posts #1 and #2: This thread started as a fun comment, and Alien Bob responded in the same vein. Then, some "serious" answers..., and then arguments ensued... :( I don't think it was the intent of the OP.

Today I could compile kernel 3.18 LTS on one of my slackware system without previous experience and it works like a charm. Something which is a dream for many distros. I wonder what would be the next steps of such these discussions after adopting PAM, let me guess:

So there is PAM, how about to begin investigating adding systemd?

and after adding systemd:
So there is systemd, how about to add Wayland?

and after Wayland:
Oh my god, there is Snappy package manager which let parallel installation of libraries same as Windows, How about to add it to Slackware too?

And after a while we have another Redhat/Canonical/Novel distro which use their users as lab rats of their commercial products. Someones here argue that adding PAM is harmless for Slackware. Personally I know many harmless things which don't exist in Slackware. Thanks to slackbuild volunteers and slackware developers I can add them to slackware or even if it doesn't exist in thess sources I can ask for help in this forum.
I know part of these discussions originates from human nature. All of us want our favorite products suite all of our needs. Something which is impossible and may cause undesired results. Thankfully Slackware is flexible enough and we can treat it the way we want and I think this forum is the right place to share such experiences.

Don't be angry Pat. Drink a cup of coffee, take a selfie with Paul Bunyan and share it with us. Minnesota should has beautiful snowy days at this time.

I don't mind, just pointing out that I would be banned if I used the same tone.

So, you are just repeating hearsay (care to provide a link to Alien's statement, by the way?) and most probably know nothing about PA.

However, if you want to install it on OpenBSD to make your own opinion, I can help you.

I'm not sure what you think your .sig proves, with a few of my choice replies taken out of context. I was being extremely polite to those users considering their noise to signal ratio was approaching 100%.

I doubt anyone would be banned for those comments, and don't expect different treatment by the moderators here than any other user would get.

Please Post #1 was a plain and simple troll by someone who is known to troll. If it had been someone beside Vader I might be incline to believe it was a tong and check type joke; but from him I am almost entirely certain after reading it and re-reading it, that it was designed to provoke a flame war. There has not been a single comment that has added meaningfully to the technical discussion around PAM on this entire thread. A few folks came close here and there but IMHO nobody cleared that hurdle. There was no real need for it either because there is nothing new to say.

Slackware is near a release its not an opportune time roll major changes unless its the only way to fix something. The reason for doing PA were outlined in the changelog, like'em or not they have NOTHING TO DO WITH PAM...

I would like to see PAM added to Slackware, but this entire thread is useless and counter productive to that end. Got something we have not heard/seen before to say on the matter start a thread with a specific subject. We have all read the "Hey Slackware should add PAM" thread hundreds of times over the last decade. Its pointless.

What about your own noise to signal ratio in this thread?

By the way, "troll" does not mean "anyone who disagrees with me".

Nice and optional in the ports tree like it should be.

No, I'm not going to link to Alien Bob's statement. You'll have to read the whole thread.

Nope. You made the assertion; you provide the link. I'll assume that you are lying and cannot produce such a link otherwise.

Hint: it's somewhere in this thread...

You will understand much more of the discussion if you actually read the thread before deciding to take a dump in it.

I just had to look it up



troll2


/trōl/


verb

verb: troll; 3rd person present: trolls; past tense: trolled; past participle: trolled; gerund or present participle: trolling



1.



informal
make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
"if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"




2.


fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat.
"we trolled for mackerel"



•carefully and systematically search an area for something.
"a group of companies trolling for partnership opportunities"





3.


sing (something) in a happy and carefree way.
"troll the ancient Yuletide carol"




4.



British
walk; stroll.
"we all trolled into town"



noun

noun: troll; plural noun: trolls



1.


a person who makes a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting.




•informal
a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting.




2.


a line or bait used in trolling for fish.



Origin

late Middle English (in the sense ‘stroll, roll’): origin uncertain; compare with Old French troller ‘wander here and there (in search of game)’ and Middle High German trollen ‘stroll.’

Found it:So you truncate a quote and remove its context just to make it mean the opposite. Intellectual honesty at its best.

... no, I did not. (Do you have autism or do you just deliberately not understand anything I say?) He said it was a buggy piece of shit. If it once was, then it has failed miserably at keeping it simple. And in my experience it still is.

---

Whatever, I think every normal person understands my point. Thanks for listening and thanks for Slackware (not being sarcastic). Good luck with Pulseaudio. I don't think it's a good idea but I hope it works out. Bye.

I have autism, but understand you fine, and agree with Didier's assessment.

If you believe in the convictions you have put forward, then you should take greater care in compiling supporting evidence. What you have done makes it seem like you are being deliberately dishonest, which undermines the credibility of your convictions.

Many times the mods will defer to the thread creator on whether off-topic posts get squashed. Since Pat is the distro creator, I think that would give him more wiggle room on the "pretty much almost official" Slackware forum (not that it would even be needed here or in general with his posts... he is pretty polite, those comments included).

But if you actually read the forum rules, you'd see that many of the posts on this thread and in much of the forum don't follow the letter of the law and the mods give a lot of people a pass. You have to do some pretty crazy stuff to get banned. I don't see the mods banning you if you used the same tone, especially on someone who pretty much created this thread to cause a raucous.

Are you purposefully ignoring the word "was"? "Was" means past tense, meaning that it "used to be". Software can change. The fact that you're so set in your ways speaks volumes. Pat and team have tried to find these bugs and squash them... they even purposefully try to screw up the computer trying to replicate bugs, and so far, nothing has been able to be replicated. This likely means that the issues people are seeing are a local issue, likely due to a misconfigured audio setup. Without a clean install and when you include vague statements such as "And in my experience it still is.", it doesn't help you or the developers to fix problems.

Either way, I hope your future computering endeavors works out well for you. If Slackware is no longer the distro for you, then it was nice to have you as a user while you were one. Hopefully you can find solace in another Linux or BSD flavor that doesn't have pulseaudio. Good luck!

For future reference...a signal to noise of 1 (or 100%) would imply that the signal can just be seen above the noise and I doubt that is what you meant. If there is only noise and no signal the S/N goes to zero.....

I think that is why he used the noise to signal ratio instead - the inverse relationship. ;)

Wise and subtle, Pat is!

I indeed missed that....SNR is just engraved in my mind as the term to use. I've never seen "noise-to-signal-ratio" being used in engineering as it would explode if the signal goes to zero. This wouldn't happen with SNR as there is always noise.

Of course, doing it that way, with some people you're in danger of a floating point exception.

If you want to be blatantly disrespectful... I too have a type of autism called Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), and you sir need to do us a favor and shut your damn mouth.

I don't care what argument you have, or had, you trash talk mental disorders and people who have them, and you can rot in a hole for I care.

You should apologize to everyone here, especially Patrick, for your behavior. That was beyond unacceptable.

ReaperX7: I don't think that the disrespectful language you just used bring any good. Better just let the discussion close itself.

Me, I do not feel the need of an apology from anyone, and someone one who does can just speak for oneself.

Sorry Didier but there are just some things...

Well, some time ago I had a problem with Slackware being unable to authenticate against AD. The only viable solution was using PAM. So I had two options, ditch Slackware or solve my problem myself. While working on the second option I tried to engage a meaningful discussion about adding PAM to Slackware. The threads were flooded with tons of utter nonsense by the defenders of the Unix philosophy, KISS principal and even Copyrights and the S/N ratio dropped next to zero.

Anyways, I solved my problem. My work is public an unlicensed.

Now look at this:

12-25-15, 01:12 PM
12-26-15, 12:54 AM
Wed Jan 13 00:01:23 UTC 2016
Looks like two weeks were enough to ditch all the Unix philosophy and KISS principals. And to thoroughly test the "buggy piece of shit". And deem it stable because "Now it is being developed by other people". A real professionalism.


BTW. Why do you think yourself entitled to judge whose opinion is meaningful.



Cheers

Good God.

1. If I wanted audio to be KISS, I'd demand a damned patch panel on the back of each computer so I could re-wire the signal by hand. Harder to more stupid simple than that.
2. In my Day Job (TM), I'm part of a group that inherited a poo-pile of code written by a smart guy that knew nothing about software engineering. It was a real POS that fell over all the bloody time. That guy isn't part of the project any more, other people who know that the eff they are doing are working on it, and YES, the result isn't the same sucky POS that it used to be.
3. A high-functioning team can get a LOT done in two weeks. Pat's job (and since you aren't American, I don't think you understand what that means to us) is to develop and release Slackware. I'm not overly surprised that he can do a quality analysis and testing in the period of 2 agile iterations, especially with high-quality help.

I really hope tomorrow morning after the sobering coffee you'll take a second thought on this

Cheers

I don't know about the others, but I'm pretty sure the number of comments either stating or implying any of those things about PAM *and* which were written by me is exactly zero.

Absent comments from Pat, me, Eric, Heinz, and/or the other Slackware team members in that thread, I'm not sure what your point is. If you want to fuss about how *other* people have suddenly changed their minds about e.g. PA or PAM or whatever, then fine, but leave me out of it - you're attacking people who didn't do the thing which upsets you.

What a lot of data for sociologists to compile and analyze human behavior on internet forums... But at the same time, with the 'tens' of years, some patterns seems to be repetitive. Sadly, we (as power users) should be aware of that... Sometimes I check if I'm not reading youtube comments :).

I'd like everybody to do "bisous" to each other... :).

Bests to everyone "all-inclusive".

Garry.

I've worked with and for Canadians for over 15 years in high tech. My statement was not made lightly.

You may want to double check your source on that. ADHD and autism are two different psychological disorders. ADHD is not a type of autism (although, they can share similar symptoms).

I never said your opinion wasn't meaningful, however, many of your posts are not. I'll be the first to admit that you've done some great work with incorporating PAM into Slackware, and I think it's awesome you're willing to share your work with the community. Those posts are always good to read and I learn some great stuff. I have no need for PAM, but if I did, your project would provide a great start. However, your great posts are countered with ludicrous statements like:

Don't get me wrong, you've provided some great stuff to the Slackware community, but your signal to noise ratio leaves something to be desired...

So, you have two strong arguments, first I am not American and second I am Canadian.

Tu fais pitié, Richard.

funny to see that after so many threads and pages people still did not get it, but of course, if you turn of brain and see ir from an religious perspective

systemd is the consequenze of PAM :doh:

the next FUD spreading person with to less clue what (s)he is talking about.

let me explain one more time
we boot the system already.
but we have no central authentication that needs PAM and that is standard these days, so on Slackware you have a lack on functionality without PAM.

I really wonder why those people that never accounted that lack of functionality do not just stop showing their lack of understanding, all threads would be much shorter,
From time to time someone would say 'ops I miss this now, what a pity that we dont have it, I wish it would be different' and we would be done.
But as soon as someone says so, our self declared knights and defenders of the whatever come and float the forum and threads with FUD, nonsenses and prove over and over that they do not even know what functionality is missing but that this does not matter for having an opinion, preferably a strong one.

In real this is a damage for Slackware, people have left and leave the distro because they need the functionality. None (exept there is always one fanatic) would leave because of adding this functionality.
At the end Slackware has less users and less donations, well done ...

No offense, but I have no need for trash in my flat, regardless of whether or not the majority thinks it's treasure.
You're not asking the building owner to include it in your own flat, you're trying to change the building policy to force it into everyone's flat.
For this reason alone, I've no sympathy for you, and assume you're just here to undermine the stability of the system for your own benefit.

of course you do not have need for this functionality in your hobby home environment
stability expert alarm

thanks for your outing as home hobby expert and the confirmation of what I have been written.

I don't know how you tie in my comment to my country and religion. Never mind, I would be someone like you if I try to answer to such silly comment.

How did you get such a foolish conclusion? I didn't say systemd is the consequence of PAM as Snappy isn't the consequence systemd. There are plenty distros with PAM which don't use systemd. I talked about moaning babies who always want new things without thinking about side effects.

That's true. I never accounted any problem regarding lake of PAM and I never accounted any problem due to PA as I don't use Current. Tanks to Slackware developers and all these experienced slackers, I know where I can ask for help.

Sorry to rest of you for prolonging this thread

Are you sure? However, if I were PV I refused donations from sadomasochistic people.

As LDAP has overtaken NIS, this has become an issue within corporate environments. The debate is about whether Slackware also needs to be a player in this arena when other distributions already can be used to meet the need, whether the additional requirements from the corporate arena (documentation, support, updates, release cycles) would be too burdensome. You perceive this lack of functionality as damaging to Slackware. I happily survive in my corporate environment without it.
As ivandl did, and made it happen, in this thread. http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ing-4175517619
And it can also be seen in that thread that vbatts and rworkman have also looked at PAM.
Also looking at the quoted thread, you can see that from when the thread started and continuing for six months, there was nothing at all like you describe, but rather the reverse. The turning point in that thread was initiated by the OP. http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ml#post5351791

travis82, I did not mention you country in anyway, and religion is menat in the context of technical believes, as presentet in this thread. but feel free to run your own interpretation of what I have written, even if it has nothing to to with the reality.
it just shows me that you only want to present your point of view as reaction on keywords instate of getting the content and respect what people actually have been written.

So by ir you mean it not iran, by to to you mean to do and by instate you mean instead. Sorry man, you must use my signature as well.

yes, to the first, ir should have been 'it', so I targeted the t but hit the r next to it, also a clear yes to the second, got the wrong word bad, my :(

I can agree on this, and I would, but, don't excuse for your english as non native speaker, I think there are even threads about that somewhere here (not in the Slackware section)
I will possible work on an appropriate alternative, good idea thanks for the input.

Can someone declare this thread 'solved'

considering this thread was started as trolling for personal gain i conclude it will not be marked as [Solved] until Pat adds PAM to Slackware
(so not this year, at least)

Seems like some people here don't understand the concept of "regression" as it applies to software development.

From a brief search, it appears that bluetooth support was added in Slackware 12.0 - i.e. 9 years ago. As such, bluetooth support is a de facto part of the Slackware specifications. If that support becomes broken, then software engineering principles would generally dictate that the developers identify and pursue a solution.

I have my own reasons for wanting PAM on my system, but to date I have not encountered any capability that one would deem part of the Slackware specification that is broken without it. If there has been anything, it's been fixed through some other means (i.e. the patches previously mentioned). If that changes, I imagine the dev team would add PAM to fix the regression.

There's no inconsistency here as far as I can tell.

Dave

ask pam in music, pampam pampam pampaaaaammmm................. ;)

juste joke ;)

It's funny you mention this when the thread title is "So, there is PulseAudio... How about to begin investigating adding LinuxPAM to Slackware too?"

Someone (Darth Vader) was hoping the "consequence" of adding pulseaudio would be to add PAM to the system...

How about the KDE's User Authorization going nuts since Ice Age, from the lack of PAM?

For example, try to Adjust Date and Time, even into latest slackware-current. What happen? Screenshot attached.

Sure, from a Hobby perspective, or someone who use his Linux to watch movies into family, I "troll" there again.

BUT, just imagine that you have on administration hundreds of computers, i.e. in a School, and their users starts in the same day to ask about that error, while you try to explain to Management, who usually think that "there is a problem, you'll have to fix it", that you can't fix it, because it come from the distribution Design.

In that day you will suddenly understand that "that error" sucks hundred times more than the lack of bluetooth... :hattip:

PS. The screenshot was executed from root account, supposed to be Master of The System, all rights included.

you mean, mention PAM to Slackware users leads to regression => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regres...8psychology%29
I can not say that you are that wrong :-)

Well, all I can say is I've never had any problems with KDE as a result of not having PAM. When I try to adjust the date/time from my non-privileged account, I get prompted for root's password. Expected behavior.

Attachment 20625

This is on -current. But I can't recall ever having had the problem you describe. What makes you sure it's because of no PAM?

Dave

Because I have the possibility to compare how work the (pure) Slackware with a very similar, but PAMified, Slackware build, who differ only as having everything built with the Magic Four Packages present. In the past, there was also difference of ARCH. Now they being similar too, as i586.

BTW, you tried to save the modifications?

To note that, in the last years, I tested and "that error" do not appear into OpenSUSE, Kubuntu, (pure) Ubuntu with KDE installed from repository, Pardus, Fedora, CentOS, RHEL, Gentoo and even in a PAMified Slackware. It is specific to (pure) Slackware.