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Old 12-20-2018, 04:29 AM   #151
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
That's complicated. I usually just use "exec startfluxbox". What are the extra bits for?
You don't need the extra bits, they are for launching the process with consolekit and dbus. If you have no need for that, then leave it out. If you use a display manager, chances are it will handle that anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I don't consider GRUB devilish, just unnecessarily complex like hunting squirrels with a howitzer.
LILO is just very simple and does what a bootloader is supposed to do. I always configured it to just boot, with no boot menu, as I had no need for that. Configuring it is simple and intuitive. It is not trying to be a whole mini OS in it's own right (it also has a very sensible licence). One of those rare bits of software which embodies the KISS principles.

Last edited by cynwulf; 12-20-2018 at 04:43 AM.
 
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Old 12-20-2018, 01:57 PM   #152
hazel
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I've never used consolekit (except where it was installed automatically). As far as I can see, its only use is to allow unprivileged users to do power-saving on laptops. And I don't like display managers. startx is simpler and more reliable.

I've discovered another nice thing about slackpkg: if you use the option file-search, it will tell you what package a file (such as a library) belongs to. I've been using it to track down the libraries that Firefox needs. I have them all installed now and everything works. Why does Slackware have the reputation of being unfriendly?
 
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:08 PM   #153
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
I find being able to interactively mount my initrd after I've forgotten to update the grub config file to be a freaking life saver.
No doubt!

I learned very early on that it is never good to remove an old kernel from your configs until you're 100% sure that the new one works properly. Following that rule has saved me a few times.

Lately, I've also been keeping the huge kernel in there as an emergency backup, but I haven't had to use it yet.
 
Old 12-21-2018, 03:15 AM   #154
kikinovak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
Ok, if I ever become a Linux user and learn french, I'll keep it in mind, but unfortunately still does not answer the question and is still you as the only source (no offence intended).

I would just like to see one link, one bit of documentation from the kernel.org Linux drm developers, some reputable source to show conclusively that there is poor performance, as you've claimed, when KMS drivers are not loaded early via an initrd - and more importantly why there is poor performance.

The funny thing is, that some of these drivers were ported to the 'BSDs (where this "early start" is an unknown) and there are no performance issues as a result that I know of.

I have i915 and radeon based hardware and when I still used Linux, have never bothered with this method of early loading of the kernel modules and have never had poor performance or no acceleration as a result. So has something changed, if so what and where is the actual documentation for it?

//edit: I remember that the intel driver had a few issues, but that was quite a few years back, in terms of whether framebuffer drivers were built in or not. If they were that was pretty much game over for the intel driver, so you'd get no KMS and certainly no DRI / acceleration (so no compositing either).
I can't seem to find the bit of documentation. But when I RTFM, I usually try things out, and given the results (e. g. works with KMS and does not work without KMS), I validated the information for myself. And BTW, FreeBSD does *not* work with these video cards, up to 11.x. X just crashes because of crappy Intel video drivers. It seems like FreeBSD 12 has improved on that.

Cheers,

Niki
 
Old 12-21-2018, 06:22 AM   #155
JWJones
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I have them all installed now and everything works. Why does Slackware have the reputation of being unfriendly?
I've never really understood this. Maybe some people don't like to read documentation, and prefer GUI config tools and "wizards" to hold their hands?
 
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:06 AM   #156
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Why does Slackware have the reputation of being unfriendly?
Because it is unfriendly if you're a new Linux user. It's a foreign language. If you have used Windows all your life, your mind has been trained to use OSs in certain ways: everything is GUI-based, you install all programs from .exe files, you don't have to worry about dependency resolution, updates are taken care of automatically. These are not the ways in which Slackare operates. If you're experienced with *nix, however, it's straightforward. You have been working with advanced Linux OSs [LFS, Crux] for years so it's no surprise that you'll find it simple to use.

I came to Slackware via Debian and previously Ubuntu after 20 years of Windows usage and I found it very hard to make the adjustment. It took me a long time to get a usable installation and even longer to get comfortable with it [i.e. months]. It all depends what your background is.

Last edited by Lysander666; 12-21-2018 at 07:14 AM.
 
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:24 PM   #157
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
It all depends what your background is.
100% spot on.

As someone with a strong DOS background, I was always frustrated by Windows. The Linux CLI felt natural to me.

I love the fact that Slackware boots to a command line. It freaks everyone out, but at the end of the day I'm just a guy using a computer the best way I know how.
 
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:42 PM   #158
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
As someone with a strong DOS background, I was always frustrated by Windows. The Linux CLI felt natural to me.
I came to computers via mainframes, mostly VAXes running VMS. I remember being distinctly unimpressed with DOS, compared to the much more sophisticated DCL shell that I was used to. But I also found bash a kind of homecoming.
Quote:
I love the fact that Slackware boots to a command line. It freaks everyone out, but at the end of the day I'm just a guy using a computer the best way I know how.
So if you install kde, it doesn't come with kdm?
 
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:54 PM   #159
TSquaredF
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Hazel, from post 158:
Quote:
So if you install kde, it doesn't come with kdm?
Yes, it does, or with sddm, but nobody is holding a pistol to your head, forcing you to use it.
 
Old 12-21-2018, 02:06 PM   #160
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
So if you install kde, it doesn't come with kdm?
Absolutely. You can easily set Slackware to boot directly to the GUI... but that is not the default setting.
 
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Old 12-21-2018, 02:46 PM   #161
cwizardone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
.....So if you install kde, it doesn't come with kdm?
As rkelsen mentioned, the default boots to a sign on prompt. Would you call that a "terminal" sign on? Once you are signed in, you can start your favorite DE or window manager with, startx.
Use "xwmconfig" to pick your favorite (without the quote marks).
It has been so long since I've done it any differently I don't, off the top of my head, remember what file you edit (as root) to change to a GUI sign in..... I do remember the default is referred to as, init 3
and the gui sign on as, init 4......
Maybe.....

Last edited by cwizardone; 12-21-2018 at 02:59 PM.
 
Old 12-21-2018, 02:54 PM   #162
Fred-1.2.13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
100% spot on.

As someone with a strong DOS background, I was always frustrated by Windows. The Linux CLI felt natural to me.

I love the fact that Slackware boots to a command line. It freaks everyone out, but at the end of the day I'm just a guy using a computer the best way I know how.
I despise a GUI login for Linux. I feel like I am being forced into it... I too have a strong background in DOS. When Windows 95 came out, I hated the fact that it booted right into the GUI and resisted upgrading as long as possible! Then in 1995 I discovered Slackware! Unfortunately, like many others, here at work I am forced to use Windows. However I am trying to hold off on Windows 10 and stay with 7 until I retire in 2.5 years!

Last edited by Fred-1.2.13; 12-21-2018 at 02:57 PM.
 
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:17 PM   #163
enorbet
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Well it seems that the statement about background being a strong deciding factor in comfort with Linux, especially perhaps Slackware, is spot on in itself, but the follow up responses show that something else may be a deciding factor.

I started with DOS3 but quickly moved to DOS5 which is an all time favorite since 6.22 was basically just 5 with a few new, and somewhat useful features. The PC was an old Tandy 8086 that was given to me by a friend who bought a 286. I consider myself exceptionally lucky in having no investment because I didn't care if I crashed it once I learned it was all but impossible to destroy hardware from the keyboard. I literally ran every single .exe, bat, .com there was in alphabetical order so I could experience what they did and how. I did on occasion destroy the system but naturally it'd be back up in an hour with 3 floppies. Over time I became quite comfortable with command line and that is probably reflected in my changing my prompt to read "Yes Master?" LOL

My harddrive was an ancient 20MB WD IDE mounted on an ISA card and one day I destroyed the partitioning scheme and I wanted to see how BootBlock worked so I sat and waited till it appeared but instead, unbeknownst to me, this PC had DOS3 in ROM. It was ridiculously slow but it was something of a revelation, that it struck me that computers are something like human brains because humans designed them. It had a "subconscious"! including an "autonomic system". I went out the next day and bought The Hardware Bible to learn as much as I could about how the hardware systems were designed to function. Among other things, there I learned about IBMs OS/2 and that Motorola CPUs didn't have the 1Meg limit on addressable RAM and my many hours with software like QEMM were essentially a wasteful workaround. I even studied the trimmed down Assembly of Debug to gain access to firmware to learn more of the constraints and power hidden in hardware.

I apologize for the long intro but I hoped to demonstrate that my background was pretty strong in both hardware and the CLI. I was utterly comfortable. Here's the crux of why I think there is more than just background going on about comfort. One day a friend gave me 4 PCTools floppies because the place where she worked was trashing their whole DOS system to upgrade to something that wouldn't use PCShell I didn't ask what not wanting to look the proverbial gift horse in the mouth.

The first time I saw PCShell I was gob smacked. For the first time I could see the whole Tree... not just in my mind's eye but there before me on the screen. Now being me, I didn't care for the pointy clicky mouse feature, I navigated faster and more confidently with the keyboard but having a GUI, even such a crude one, was HUGE to me. Within a month I bought OS/2 v2 and shifted into high gear... well after I learned a PC with a CGA monitor and old harddrive couldn't install it and my MFM became a handy doorstop while the CGA gathered dust.

So when I later started learning about Linux from OS/2 (emx runtimes allowed for Enlightenment WM), I loved that it booted to CLI (as much as I loved it, I never liked that OS/2 was so "Object oriented" that it defaulted to Desktop) but I needed a graphic file manager to feel wholly in charge. For me it seems computer work got divided into two areas - deep level serious work that is for CLI and routine common applications where GUI seems quicker and more immediately available. Slackware, with runlevel 3 boot that could jump up to runlevel 4 with a variety of WM/DEs was absolutely perfect for me. Now I'm wondering why I never got involved in Tiling Desktops but I know don't have both feet firmly planted in what is often the polar extreme camps of CLI vs/ GUI. I need them both. Slackware is still perfect for me 20 years later.

Last edited by enorbet; 12-21-2018 at 04:18 PM.
 
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:27 PM   #164
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post

I've discovered another nice thing about slackpkg: if you use the option file-search, it will tell you what package a file (such as a library) belongs to. I've been using it to track down the libraries that Firefox needs. I have them all installed now and everything works. Why does Slackware have the reputation of being unfriendly?
That nonsense is often spread by people who have never used Slackware, and its often based on other people's reviews (usually with a prejudicial purpose), in other words, one bloke coughs and gets half the town sick.

Congrats hazel, it's fun reading of your progress. Cheers!
 
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:28 PM   #165
bassmadrigal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwizardone View Post
It has been so long since I've done it any differently I don't, off the top of my head, remember what file you edit (as root) to change to a GUI sign in..... I do remember the default is referred to as, init 3
/etc/inittab

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
So if you install kde, it doesn't come with kdm?
kdm is included if you install the kde/ series of packages, but it doesn't boot to kdm by default.

As others have mentioned, Slackware, by default, always boots to the command prompt, which is init or runlevel 3 (in Slackware). If you want kdm, sddm, or any other type of GUI, you would want the system to boot to init 4. You can adjust the default init in the /etc/inittab file under the "Default runlevel" section.

To break down Slackware's runlevel versions, they are:

Code:
0 = halt/shutdown
1 = single user mode
2 = Not used, but configured as runlevel 3
3 = multi user mode (DEFAULT)
4 = X11, attempting to start the following session managers in this order: gdm, kdm, sddm, and xdm (see /etc/rc.d/rc.4 for more info)
5 = Not used, but configured as runlevel 3
6 = reboot
 
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