Slackware/Xfce vs. Slackware/KDE
 

Hi everybody --- long time no see. :) I hope all are well.

I've been a KDE user for as long as I have used GNU/Linux, but the latest Xfce has pinched my curiosity. Unlike Xfce, however, KDE comes bundled with many apps. Comparing Xfce to KDE-Base would be a fair comparison, but all those additional apps make KDE a fine end product. Xfce does not come directly packaged with such tools. Partly because the GTK environment tends to be more wide open and such direct support is not really necessarily. However, the stock Slackware does not provide many of those equivalent GTK packages. :(

I have Slackware 12 installed and please understand that all the KDE apps run fine within Xfce. They are slow to load, of course, unless I enable the option to automatically load KDE libraries at startup. ;) Doable, yes, and works fine. However, in this thread I want to focus solely on a GTK based environment for Xfce, which is the native environment for Xfce.

Some Xfce based Slackware derivative distros attempt to remedy that hole, such as Zenwalk or Wolvix. Such a route is reasonable for some folks, but for now I prefer to remain rooted in the stock Slackware. But where do I obtain many of these GTK packages that improves Xfce in a productive way? I'm not a hard-core hacker and lack the time and hardware to become one. I also want to keep my system "clean" by only using Slackware packages, not any hodge-podge "make install."

I could download and test the packages included in Zenwalk or Wolvix and most likely those packages would function fine in the stock Slackware. Still, I would prefer to see packages at linuxpackages.net or better yet, SlackBuilds at SlackBuilds.org. I can create packages with a good SlackBuild and I have done that many times for smaller packages. And I am aware of src2pkg although I have not yet tested that solution.

My humble request here is for some of you wonderful SlackBuild hackers to create and upload SlackBuild packages to SlackBuild.org. (Packages and SlackBuild scripts likely can be borrowed from Zenwalk or Wolvix to use a base.)

Here is a partial list:

gURLChecker: replacement for KLinkStatus, a GUI web site link verifier
Meld: replacement for Kompare/Kdiff3 (GUI front end for diff) (available at Wolvix)
GNUmeric (or other spreadsheet): replacement for KSpread (available at Zenwalk and Wolvix)
gksu: replacement for kdesu (available at Zenwalk and Wolvix])
Gnomebaker: replacements for K3B (available at Zenwalk and Wolvix)
Evince: replacement for KPDF (available at Zenwalk and Wolvix)
UrlGfe: replacement for KGet (available at Zenwalk)
GHex: replacement for KHexEditor (available at Zenwalk)

Unknown GTK replacements:
???: replacement for KFindFile (which supports in-file string searches)
???: replacement for KFileReplace (which supports global string replacements; see PowerGrep in Windows)
???: replacement for various KDE multimedia players
???: replacement for KFormula editor
???: replacement for KThesaurus
???: replacement for KSysguard
???: replacement for KUser
???: replacement for KCron
???: replacement for KChmviewer

I am aware that Robbie has an OpenOffice package and SlackBuild script available, but I want to keep this thread restricted to GTK apps. The goal being that Xfce provides better potential for using older hardware, on which huge apps like OpenOffice often are not an option. Thanks. :)

I also am looking for a GTK email client that fully supports both composing and reading rich text format (HTML mail). I am unfamiliar with the many GNU/Linux email clients and a simple word or two would help me in my search. Thunderbird is an option, but I want to avoid XUL apps --- XUL is slower than native widgets and libraries and not friendly to older hardware. (Please refrain from religiosity about HTML mail. I need basic rich text formatting for business. ;))

To help future visitors to this thread, I already have discovered several GTK packages or SlackBuild scripts currently available for the stock Slackware (check SlackBuilds.org and linuxpackages.net):

Xarchiver: replacement for KArchiver
Geany and Medit: replacements for Kate
Abiword: replacement for KWord
Bluefish: replacement for Quanta Plus
Inkscape: replacement for Krita
Gparted: a partition manager front end for parted
XPad: replacement for KNotes
Galculator: replacement for KCalc
GQView: replacement for KView and Kuickshow image browsers

There are some Xfce plugins too:

xfce4-mount-plugin: replacement for Kwikdisk
xfce4-clipman-plugin: replacement for Klipper
thunar-archive-plugin: archiver program hook for Thunar
orage: replacement for KAlarm

One feature missing from Xfce is supporting simple screen captures to the clipboard using the Print Screen and Alt-Print Screen keys. Nothing fancy, just an uncomplicated and straightforward capture to the clipboard. I posted a request at the Xfce forum, but if anybody here knows a skilled Xfce plugin hacker, please forward the request to that person and I will help test and write/edit documentation. Update: I have discovered a screen capture plugin for Xfce. The package is included in Zenwalk and some other distros but is not listed at the Xfce plugin site. The name of the plugin is Xfce-screenshooter-plugin. My very quick survey indicates the plugin works much like KSnapshot but I did not discover whether the plugin is or can be mapped to the Print Screen and Alt-Print Screen keys.

I realize that some of the GUI replacement tools I seek can be performed through the command line. Yet I want to restrict this thread to GUI apps, not command line ingenuity. Thanks. :)

My goal is not to create another Zenwalk or Wolvix, but to help myself and other Slackers improve the Xfce environment while continuing to use Slackware rather than other distros.

I am prepared to help test any packages or SlackBuilds created. I will edit and update this post as I learn of any packages or SlackBuild scripts I missed in my searching. Being a KDE person and unfamiliar with GTK I am sure I missed some apps and packages along the way.

Please feel free to add or amend this thread as necessary. Perhaps this thread eventually can become sticky as a Slackware community bulletin board of equivalent GTK apps to replace KDE apps. Thanks everybody.

Note: Edited to update lists.

I know I've already posted this in another thread, but I have build scripts for most of the Xfce panel plugins and Thunar plugins on my personal site. I'm planning to get them pushed to SlackBuilds.org sooner or later, but there's simply no time right now.

Robby, I was aware of your web site and I am grateful for all you contribute! Thanks for replying.

Not addressed to Robby or anybody in particular, since my original post I have discovered a screen capture plugin for Xfce. The package is included in Zenwalk and some other distros but is not listed at the Xfce plugin site. :scratch: The name of the plugin is Xfce-screenshooter-plugin. My very quick survey indicates the plugin works much like KSnapshot but I did not discover whether the plugin is or can be mapped to the Print Screen and Alt-Print Screen keys.

I did a full install of Slackware 12, it runs very well indeed. All of the KDE applications are available in my XFce panel. The KDE apps function quite well in XFce. Did you do a custom install of Slack 12? More power to you in your project, Woodsman:-)

Ah, I should have explained better and I will edit my original post. All the KDE apps run fine within Xfce. They are slow to load, of course, unless I enable the option to automatically load KDE libraries at startup. Doable, yes and works fine. However, in this thread I wanted to focus solely on a GTK based environment for Xfce.

Thanks for the explanation. Yes, KDE apps are a bit slow to load. Best wishes with this project:-)

Gnormalize is a quite good GTK+ audio converter (http://gnormalize.sourceforge.net). There's a package in the 11.0 slacky.eu repo. It was conveniently included on Wolvix, so I'm not sure of the particulars of installing it from source.

As for email, the only one that springs to mind is Sylpheed and I think that only reads html email.

Sylpheed is a very nice e-mail client, it runs very light and fast in Xfce. I'm running Sylpheed-2.4.4:-) Sylpheed gets my vote as a good addition to XFce.

XFCE's AppFinder fails to find a lot of programs. Is there some way to improve it, or a GTK+ replacement? Any GTK+ file-finders?

Just the opposite, plain text only. The dev version, claws (a separate project now) does html, I believe.

Dennisk

That is actually what I meant, Sylpheed (and Claws) read and write plain text emails but only read html. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

I know of 2 GTK CHM readers. xCHM seems quite decent, but it uses wxGTK. I don't know if that is an issue for you.

I haven't used CHMsee, but it is pure GTK.

Thanks everybody for the responses thus far. I hope this thread will continue to grow.

I noticed the GNOME Slacky project. I wonder whether there might be some helpful overlap from that project toward improving the Xfce foundations for using additional GTK apps. Perhaps Xfce can be easily fortified with a minimal install of GNOME Slacky by installing the basic GTK/GNOME core and bindings. Perhaps somebody here who is familiar with GTK, GNOME Slacky, and Xfce might post some comments or a mini how-to about using GNOME Slacky to improve the barebones default Xfce. I am inclined to believe as much because I have been modestly attempting to compile and install various GTK foundation packages in order to support my effort to install GTK apps equivalent to those found in the KDE world. Anybody here want to add their thoughts on that idea?

Zenwalk comes packaged with Catfish (renamed Search4Files), but unfortunately that package only supports file name searches and not string searches within documents. Odd, considering the Windows File Find utility has supported basic string searching since Windows 95 and the KFileFind utility has supported string searches for a long time too. I would like to find GTK equivalents of the KDE KFileFind and KFileReplace programs. I could improve my slocate and grep skills to search for text strings with files, but replacing strings on-the-fly is (for me) quicker and easier with a GUI front-end. In Windows I have been using PowerGrep for years and KFileReplace is similar. Many non command line people who want to use GNU/Linux will find such GUI front-ends helpful too. Perhaps GNOME Slacky comes with a better file search utility than the Xfce AppFinder?

The thrust of this thread is if Xfce is going to grow and mature into a bona fide desktop environment then much more is needed than the nominal foundation Xfce creates. The Xfce developers are not going to support anything but what they are doing, so distro maintainers and end-users must create that more useful environment. I would prefer the scope of this thread to be limited to GTK apps, but if a utility exists only in wxGTK format then such a tool will have to suffice. As I mentioned in my original post, Zenwalk and Wolvix are already heading down the path to create a more productive Xfce environment, but within the scope of this thread, I'm looking for ways to improve Xfce only within the stock Slackware.

You do realize that when someone makes a Slackware package they are just going to do a "hodge-podge 'make install'" into a packaging tree, write an info block and maybe a short script, and you will be installing the result? About the only difference is the ability to remove it with pkgtool and removepkg and that you don't know who compiled it or if you can really trust them. Unless of course you mean a "real" Slackware package from the distro which has patches written specifically for Slackware? Most people who make a package and post it on a web site won't go to that trouble.

On a side note, Xfce leans toward the conservative side in favor of stability and security, whereas KDE leans toward the elaborate side in favor of as many diverse tools as possible. That is why Xfce has very few tools and options which work very well, but KDE has quite a few tools and options, many of which are unstable and can sometimes corrupt your system.
ta0kira

Yeah, sure, but my point was that I prefer the "controlled" approach of using packages rather than installing directly from source. Installing from a package provides a convenient way of tracking what is installed as well as a reasonably clean and controlled way of avoiding problems when removing packages. That was the only point I was making.

As I mentioned in my original post, comparing Xfce to KDE-Base would be appropriate. Comparing the entire KDE package kit to Xfce is not a straight-across comparison. With that said, KDE would not be very usable installing only the Base package anymore than Xfce. Which is my point about Xfce. Xfce is not a fully productive environment without additional packages. Most of those packages are not installed in a stock Slackware. I would like this thread to serve as a portal for helping people learn about packages to create a more productive Xfce environment, comparable to the full KDE installation.

Whether KDE is more unstable than Xfce is untested. I would have to add many GTK packages to Xfce --- the native environment of Xfce --- such that the installed number of packages and productivity potential becomes equivalent to a full KDE environment. I then would to have use that full featured Xfce/GTK environment in a productive way before passing judgment on stability. Whether Xfce/GTK is more stable remains to be seen, but I need to install the equivalent GTK apps to create a similar productive environment. But that is not possible with a stock Slackware. I started this thread because the stock Slackware does not provide most of those GTK packages. That is my goal with this thread --- to create a list of comparable GTK packages that will create a productive environment nominally equivalent to KDE or Windows. An end-user can add several GTK packages using linuxpackages.net and SlackBuild.org, but several key gaps remain, which I noted in my original post. My point of contention is not the way KDE or Xfce is designed or the project goals, but the noticeable gap of GTK apps not provided in a stock Slackware that would render Xfce more useful in an equivalent way to the entire KDE environment.

nice thread this. i would like more gtk1 apps :) while i try to use the commandline as much as possible, when i need to i prefer the speed and look of GTK1 apps, grey and simple ;) i think GTK2 apps look pretty ugly tbh, i dont like the QT default look either.

Funny about XFCE
 

I have been using Wolvix on XFCE lately as well as now I am using Slackware on KDE. Wolvix is based on and uses Slackware. Both are very fast with the Wolvix being just a tad faster. I think the difference can be laid at the door of KDE vs XFCE.

So far as usability, both seem to handle anything I want them to with no problems and I am very satisfiedwith them. I think potentially the KDE might have more options available but then I think you have to figure out if the options are useful to you or if what you have to start with meets your needs fully.

Although this thread is a couple of months old, in my Slackware Desktop Enhancement Guide I have posted a page titled Slackware Xfce Improvements, addressing the issue of improving Xfce within the stock Slackware. Comments and suggestions are welcomed.

CHM Readers : I like the chm extension for firefox even better than any other app ...

A very well-written guide for Slackers! Thank you for supporting the Slackware community, Woodsman:-)

I go theroute myself. Then I use 'installpkg' on the package I just made, and save all my 'made' packages to a dvd so when I screw up the world, it's easy to reinstall what I need.

You can find 'checkinstall' in the /extras directory on the cds or dvd.

There was a message here on linuxquestions about somewhat checkinstall is broken, or so, or was. Is it still so?

It was. Don't know if it is now. You can use src2pkg if your checkinstall is broken.

Btw, Woodsman, thanks for the guide.

Yes, it is, with Slackware 12...I just looked it up.

Sorry about that.

But src2pkg does work.

IMHO, the point here is, that KDE trys to be a complete and fully integrated desktop environment right out of the box. Therefore it comes with quite a few more or less useful applications including games by standard. It can be extended, of course, but it is supposed to be useful and productive even if you don't add dozens of programs from elsewhere. Personalization is done by configuring KDE and apps written for it. Even an end-user has many options to modify the look and feel (behaviour) of applications. The biggest advantage of KDE, however, is how well KDE apps work together. But there's a price: The framework that ensures this high level of interoperability is sophisticated, but complex and uses a little bit of computing power. It's an individual decision, if you think it's worth it, or not.

That's where alternatives like XFCE enter the scene. The philosophy here is to provide some tools *everyone* usually needs, and to keep things small and simple. Personalization is done more by adding things you need, and a bit less by configuration. The goal here is not to be complete. The goal is to provide a lean, simple to use basic environment for *your* tools and utilities and applications.

In other words: While KDE is rails, locomotive and wagons, XFCE tends to be only the rails, maybe with one locomotive, but without wagons.

Now, although there should be many Gtk+ applications available that should run under XFCE, some of them require some Gnome infrastructure. Not sure if they are loaded that much faster than KDE apps, then. If I get you right, your problem is that you don't find Slackware packages for some of the apps you want to use, and you want to encourage package builders and maintainers to provide packages for these apps.

Well, if the usual repositories (slacky.eu, linuxpackages.net, slackbuilds.org and the homepages of rworkman and Alien Bob) don't have the stuff you need, one good way, that usually works just fine, is gnashley's wonderful tool src2pkg.

To brigde that time gap until some maintainer you trust provides more or less "official" packages for the software you want, you can browse http://www.freshmeat.net and http://www.sourceforge.net, download what you like and create a Slackware package from the official sources using src2pkg. Handling is *really* easy.

What src2pkg does is, it creates and installs a binary Slackware package. This might be the first step to get going what you actually want. Because if the created package works well on your machine (which it usually will do), you could provide it somewhere for download and testing by others. Once some other people tried it without complaining, you could finally upload it to one of the repositories mentioned above.

The first step wouldn't require any knowledge about shell script programming, so it could be an easy start for your project.

And, BTW, in case you have some (unexpected) trouble with src2pkg: gnashley is a very helpful and knowledgable guy, who appreciates feedback for his admirable tool.

Good luck

gargamel

Thanks everybody for your comments (and compliments :)).

My goal is straightforward. The stock Slackware includes the complete KDE and Xfce, but a "complete" Xfce lacks many equivalent productivity tools packaged with KDE. The Xfce developers likely never will provide the same level of desktop support as the KDE developers. The goal of the KDE and Xfce developers differ and that largely explains the contrast in the desktops. Therefore, providing a fuller Xfce desktop is up to end-users.

There are people supporting Slackware spin-offs who try to provide a more complete Xfce desktop, such as Zenwalk and Wolvix. My modest goal is to provide some basic help for people who prefer, for whatever reasons, to remain with the stock Slackware but want to experiment with or improve the Xfce desktop.

I'm no Xfce guru and do not act as one on TV. I merely am noting that the stock Slackware does not provide as rich an Xfce experience as the stock KDE provides. I would be tickled to see Pat create an Xfce directory in the Slackware Extras tree, where packages for a fuller Xfce desktop could be supported and stored. Or perhaps a separate section at slackbuilds.org dedicated to improving the Xfce desktop (just a suggestion, Robbie, not a demand or command of any type :)).

I also realize that KDE apps run just fine within the Xfce environment. Doing so costs some overhead and a pristine GTK environment therefore seems a plausible goal.

Various slackbuild scripts exist to help Slackers with such a journey, but the collection is incomplete. The src2pkg tool could help fill voids too, but there are many Slackers who prefer merely to download completed packages rather than roll their own.

I'm aware that some GTK packages depend upon a basic GNOME infrastructure. I believe several of those foundational packages are available at slackbuilds.org. At my web site I have not yet addressed such issues. Currently I am focusing only on creating a comparison table of equivalent like-for-like GTK packages that could replace KDE packages.

At my web site I am offering to provide a pivot point or portal for Slackers who want to configure an Xfce desktop to resemble something close to KDE. I am not attempting any commentary about what people should do or what is "right" or "wrong," or even how to achieve that goal. I am only offering a spot on the web that tries to help fellow Slackers locate equivalent GTK apps for a fuller Xfce experience within the stock Slackware.

Part of my reason for starting this conversation and project is a busy personal schedule. I have tinkered with creating my own slackbuild scripts and with src2pkg, but I am no software guru and do not always succeed, which adds another reason for wanting to find help with completed packages or well-written slackbuild scripts. I also use older hardware, which can be slow and painful with respect to compiling software. I suspect there are many Slackers who, like me, prefer the structure of Slackware, who also might use older hardware, who also might not be software gurus, but would like to see additional GTK packages available for downloading. Linuxpackages.net is an option, although many of the contributors there do not include their slackbuild scripts, which I prefer so I can roll my own at a later date with future updates and releases. I also believe that including the slackbuild script provides a higher degree of trust.

I'm not seeking "something for nothing," which is why I created the web page. I am not an expert at compiling software or creating scripts or packages, and the web page is a nominal way of contributing to this project.

If you want to help with this modest project then please contact me (here in this thread or at my web site) with names and links of equivalent packages. How to compile such packages is a subject for another day. For the moment I want to build a comparison table. My focus is on traditional "productivity" and not games or other forms of software recreation. After better populating this comparison table, I am open to suggestions about how to improve the web page to help Slackers obtain those packages.

Thanks for your interest and help.

AAHH -jukebox55, you sound like a man after my heart. You need to have a look around my site. I've just started re-populating it lately. I have sveral hundred(!) GTK1 apps on there-aomething for nearly evrything that woodsman asked for in fact. I even have a unique version of GTK-1.2.10 that combines all the great patches from LFS, gentoo, fedora, SuSE, debain and ubuntu, including a hybrid file selector which no one else has ever seen. Over the next few days I'll being uploaded a few more gigs of stuff -looks like I have around 800 folders of stuff at the moment and counting...

http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/...inux/download/

I think it's been fixed. I downloaded 1.6.1 yesterday (not even knowing there was a 'bug' with Slackware 12) and it worked beautifully.

digger95, checkinstall is still broken.
See this thread:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...1/#post2941397

[QUOTE=Woodsman;2939980]Thanks everybody for your comments (and compliments :)).

There are people supporting Slackware spin-offs who try to provide a more complete Xfce desktop, such as Zenwalk and Wolvix. My modest goal is to provide some basic help for people who prefer, for whatever reasons, to remain with the stock Slackware but want to experiment with or improve the Xfce desktop.
----------------------------------------
I would like to second these thoughts.
I have tried zenwalk, vector, absolute(not xfce however-loose module theme) and used wolvix for some time before deciding I was ready for real thing.
My custom system starts with slackware12 + xfce + kde multimedia k3b and k9copy and mplayer. A full KDE desktop represents the reason, I gave windows the boot. Gnome allows more flexibility, however xfce fits slackware like a glove (with a finger or two missing).

I have added the following extras from the above distros:
glabels, converall, kompozer, notecase, galculator, pcmanfm, fileroller,

I come from Wolvix to slackware and I use slackware only with xfce because KDE is a horrible monster for me. The only KDE-app I am using is k3b because there is no really btk-based competitor.

The most important feature I'm missing in xfce is an easy way to customize menus and apperance but above all I like the lean & fast way of working with slackware and this is much more possible in xfce rather than KDE.

yes it's a pity we have to load so much of kde just to use k3b and k9copy.

Absolutelinux has a very loose configuration and uses icewm and menuedit. Menuedit is exactly what xfce needs.