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Old 08-14-2006, 06:12 PM   #46
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As a Slackware user for the past 8 years I can say I am not
anti GNU, I am however anti RMS! This burned out hippie (Stallman) has spent a great deal of time harassing people on the 'linux kernel mailing list' about the linux/GNU nonsense. Stallman should be spending his free time getting the GNU/Hurd off the drawing board!!
 
Old 08-14-2006, 06:29 PM   #47
ringwraith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierP
Ok. What started out as a potentially good thread, or at least, an informative thread has just exploded into a dramastorm.

Thusly and therefore, I am ending it.

In closing, I would say this: if you are a programmer, the GPL is better for your rights (assuming you want them) than the BSD licence. I present Exhibit A - MS TCPIP. The whole thing is proprietary and closed but is based on the TCPIP system under a BSD licence.
BSD licences say "here is my stuff, do with it what you want and don't give anything back unless you want to". At least the GPL says "I did this, use it if you like, but make sure that my stuff is credited to me and that you use it in the way I want".

Anyhow, closed.
I agree with you to some extent, BUT <and it is a pretty big but> the BSD license is written the way it is to try to draw more commercial interest. I agree it seems short sighted, as it is not requiring code to come back in that may be beneficial to the whole. So there is a decrease in the long term robustness of the code. On the other hand there are some commercial enterprises that are simply not ready for the idea of sharing everything they write. They weren't coming to Linux anyway so no great loss.

I would also compliment you on admitting you may have been wrong and changing your position on this thread. In general I think more freedom is usually best. The free market place of ideas is usually the best judge of what should be listened to and what shouldn't.
 
Old 08-14-2006, 06:53 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinaman
This is just another one of Harishankar's flame bait troll threads against Slackware.
Before I weigh in on post #1, I would just like to thank Chinaman for calling a spade a spade. Good point, sir.

No, as for my thoughts on post #1...is Slackware anti-GNU? No, I don't think so. Is Slackware pro-BSD? Nope, not there either. I believe that Pat's intention was to create a stable, configurable operating system from the best of what is available. Nothing more; nothing less.
 
Old 08-14-2006, 06:57 PM   #49
Woodsman
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The relationship between Slackware and BSD is the way in which boot scripts are configured. Otherwise Slackware is not related to BSD. Regarding the political and social issues, I don't think the Slackware maintainer is anti GNU/FSF although he tends to keep his personal opinions personal.

However, as PV has not imposed any BSD license schemes, I would venture to guess that PV is not anti-GNU/FSF.

Quote:
I'm academically interesting in learning more about how these philosophical differences came about in the FOSS community.
Throw ten people into a room and likely you will discover eleven opinions.

Quote:
. . . Slackware seems more lenient on what is "Free" and "Non-Free" . . .
I might have missed something, but I have not noticed any non-free software in the Slackware distro. Non-free with respect to the four freedoms, that is. Third party packagers might be different, of course.

Package selection is simply PV's opinion.

Quote:
. . . but Slackware keeps the vi compatibility mode by default.
PV is well-known for (rarely) patching or modifying source code. Yes, that sometimes is a stumbling block for new users.

Quote:
I find Slackware closer to BSD both in style and philosophy . . .
With respect to file system layout and management, yes. With respect to social philosophy, no. Most (all?) of the Slack packages are under the GPL.

Quote:
. . . and I don't believe in socialism
Because the original question in this thread is philosophical, I'll offer some observations. Philosophical socialism, as understood by the many 19th century advocates and philosophers, was based upon free association and voluntary exchange. What many people today call socialism is more appropriately called state socialism or politicized socialism. What many people today refer to as socialism is actually only another branch of statism. Statism is a philosophy based upon force and coercion and the threat of violence.

Philosophical socialists do indeed embrace communitarian ownership of certain assets, but they do not believe in forcing that type of relationship. Most of the 19th century socialist philosophers wanted their social system based upon free association and voluntary exchange, not force and coercion. Indeed, that force and coercion is the foundation of statism is what the socialist movement was all about. They wanted to abolish statism.

Karl Marx, and his followers, on the other hand, wanted to use the political process to abolish the social conditions they witnessed. That is, they wanted to use statism to abolish statism. Several social philosophers of that day envisioned the violent results of that theory, and 50 years later the tragedy came true in Soviet Russia and then later in Nazi Germany.

With that said, some people, confused by this inappropriate definition of modern socialism (aka statism), accuse the GPL of being socialist. This is incorrect. The GPL is based upon free association and voluntary exchange. That is, no person is forced to accept the license agreement. Every person is free to reject that license and develop their own code from scratch. However, if a person uses code from GPL licensed code, then they voluntarily accept the conditions of using that code. There is no force and coercion involved. The people who previously developed that code decided that they would not treat the code with any monopoly interest. The license holders legally are the owners, but they simply do not restrict how others use the code. The entire relationship is based up free association and voluntary exchange.

And the GPL allows people to sell their value-added services. The GPL has never stopped that. The GPL only treats the software code as knowledge rather than a tangible object. The GPL is designed to treat software as knowledge freely available to all people at all times. What people do with that knowledge the GPL does not pretend to know or stop.

Yes, people can live without the GPL, but I envision a better world with the GPL. Proponents of free software see software code as knowledge, not as a tangible object to be treated with the same approach used to protect physical property. Physical property is subject to scarcity while knowledge is not. And a system of sharing knowledge has served humans well for thousands of years. Only in the past three hundred years or so has the concept of "property in knowledge" taken hold. Previously humans survived well without such concepts.

Quote:
Even Torvalds has come out and said that he thinks the GPL is going too far.
Torvalds has only rejected certain clauses of the new proposed GPL 3 license. He has no objections to the GPL 2, through which he currently licenses the Linux kernel. The clauses he objects to in GPL3 concern digital rights management, and not the remainder of the revised GPL.

Is the current GPL 2 or proposed GPL 3 perfect? No, but the history of humanity is a journey of discovery, not perfection.

Quote:
I just think all of the people shouting "viva el software libre!!!" don't have a clue what a big business this is and what the effects of GPL are to them. They are just happy to get something for nothing, and don't care what happens after that.
This is far too simple of a conclusion. There are many system elements influencing how humans interact and exchange with one another. Some of the elements of the modern exchange system that few people understand include the concept of compound interest, monetary theory, land title distribution, flawed economic theories, etc. The bottom line is that computers significantly empower people to help themselves. This was a cornerstone issue with the early 19th century socialist philosophers. That is, that through the practices of statism, many people in that period were barred from bootstrapping themselves with respect to providing a living and pursuing a vocation/trade. Land title distribution was heavily controlled and manipulated by the political class. In a predominantly agrarian society at that time, a lack of access to land created a wage-slave environment. With a politicized monetary system, many people could not capitalize their vocations/trades with the equipment and tools they need to be more self-sufficient.

Little has change in the past 200 years. Much of the modern human exchange system remains controlled and manipulated. Because so much today depends upon computers, there is little wonder that many people respond with joy that so much software is available for free, both in use and price. People can learn computer skills without fighting monopolies and difficult theories such "intellectual property." They can empower themselves.

This is especially true today in developing regions of the world where many people have been barred from bootstrapping themselves because of the politicized social system. When land, labor, and capital are all manipulated, the people in those regions are faced without an ability to empower themselves. Thus, the popularity of the free software concept in those regions today.

The issue is not about exchange price, but about empowerment. I suspect RMS is far keener about social issues and the human exchange model than many people appreciate. I think he limits himself, however, only to software issues, but I suspect that he has a much broader understanding and appreciation of social issues that most people. He tends to alienate some people because he is ardent and has drawn his proverbial lines in the sand, but human history has never been changed by those who embrace the status quo, but always by those who stepped outside the box and dared to be different. Disregarding the past 300 years, the philosophy RMS is trying to embrace with his concept of free software---a philosophy that sharing knowledge benefits all humans and not just a privileged few---is a philosophy that served all of previous human history. The past 300 year is the exception to human history.

RMS is not encouraging a new social model, but trying to establish portions of a previous model. Only through much mental conditioning through public education and media do many people today not understand human history. I suspect RMS understands that history very well.

Quote:
So what if it did? Software was sold before there was FOSS, and it will be sold after there's no more FOSS. We survived back then and we'll survive after that.
Yes, but I prefer a world in which we do more than mere survive. The current social system model encourages mere survival and Spencerian "survival of the fittest" nonsense. I envision the free software concept as only the tip of the iceberg with respect to significant social reforms. Reforms that are much needed.

Quote:
Microsoft will yet have the last laugh.
Only if people continue to embrace the flaws of the current politicized social system. That the free software concept is growing as a movement indicates to me that even the politicians cannot stop the inertia. Microsoft will not prevail. They will learn either to exist within a world where people embrace the free software concept or they will learn how to further manipulate the political system to advantage. My observation is that they have taken the latter route because they are pushing hard for stricter "intellectual property" rights and strict enforcement of digital rights management. This is the nature of all political systems: to manipulate humans based upon force and coercion rather than encourage coordination through free association and voluntary exchange.

With all that said, I use Slackware because I tend to dislike how most vendors think they know how I want to use my computer. PV does not assume that and outside basic scripts does not try to control how I use my computers. The learning curve is steeper with Slackware, but I would rather have my way than not. I'm willing to invest the sweat equity to configure my computers. Many people are not, and that is perfectly fine as long as they are willing to accept the choices made by distro vendors and maintainers.

Additional info:

FLOSS Will Not Fail---A Rebuttal
Why Free Software is Important
 
Old 08-14-2006, 07:23 PM   #50
folkenfanel
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Wink software, technology, Slackware and dirty politics

Hi there

I do think Slackware is apolitical and stands for technology. And has therefore nothing to see with dirty politics. And that's the way (aha aha) I like it.

When I started using Linux (when I started knowing about Linux and finding a distro for my personal use) I started testing some distros. I liked Slackware the most because I found it easy to use (indeed, not a joke).

I do have very strong political ideas, which are not on the Left (I want to state it clearly), which I am not going to share here because I think this is not the place for that stuff. The only thing I will say is that politics are (mostly) dirty ground.

I didn't know too much about Debian political biases. I don't really care about it. If Slackware didn't exist (Heaven forbid), I would use Debian. If some time in the future (Heaven forbid) Slackware development stopped, I would use Debian. I do use some Knoppix remasterizations for fun. That does not mean I support Debian's political stances at all.

I did not know exactly what was GNU and GPL. What I did know was that the source code of this stuff was available. (and at the beginning it was a headache having to compile everything from source). But I started enjoying it. Hey, I can modify this stuff the way I like whitout fearing going to jail. I can put my own logo to the K menu, it's easy and legal!. I like that. I still like that. That's why I compile everything from source and make my own packages (even my own installer CDs).

That's what I like. Good software. Which you can improve if you want. You need to add some new feature for your mom? You can do it. Easily. Legally. You can install it in more than one machine and redistribute it to your aunt. You want to make money with it? You can do it. You will agree with me that end users do not have (mostly) enough knowledge as to replicate your sources and make them work EXACTLY the way you do. Even redistributing your source code, there is always stuff that you (and you only) can do. Like technical service for customers. (I remember someone said that an M-16 does not kill alone, it needs a HAND to kill). Are there other programmers out there? Let them benefit with it, test my code and improve if they want. The same way I did it.

This is not political. This is common sense. This is how technology is developed and software, as a technology, is intrinsically neither good nor evil. (even though technology development is generally considered to be good). It's just a tool. Like the nuclear energy. Not good and not evil. It depends on who is using it. (and the eye of the beholder).

By the way, Slackware is not prechewed. Slackware is the steak!

Long life Slackware! And may the Source be with you all.
 
Old 08-14-2006, 07:23 PM   #51
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashbox
I believe that Pat's intention was to create a stable, configurable operating system from the best of what is available. Nothing more; nothing less.
That's my understanding as well.

Why do people have to introduce politics into everything?
 
Old 08-14-2006, 07:28 PM   #52
folkenfanel
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Talking Slackware is the steak...

But it is raw. I cook it the way I like it.
 
Old 08-14-2006, 07:29 PM   #53
folkenfanel
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Wink Amen

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen
That's my understanding as well.

Why do people have to introduce politics into everything?

Amen.

What else could I say?
 
Old 08-14-2006, 08:31 PM   #54
MasterC
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I doubt that PV really has a lot of politics wrapped up into Slackware. However, everything any of us do, create, or even say usually revolves around our beliefs. This means that if I write some code, and I believe my code will better the world if it is GPL'd, I'd release it using one of the GPL structures. Whether I **charge** for this code is irrelevant to the above. Making money and using the GPL as a license scheme are not related "beliefs". One belief is bettering man-kind, the other is bettering ones self/family. They can go hand in hand and do not work against each other.

I believe Slackware is written/coded/released as it is because PV believes that is when it is most usable by those who **USE** it. Not because Zeus told him it's time to release it. Not because he wants to hurry and 'get it out' before SuSE releases their new distro. But because it is working for him, is maintainable, and has been tested on his 'developers' systems and also work.

Reading into Slackware any more than what's in it's changelog is as bad as my theory that Mushrooms are plotting an evil plot against mankind. Although I am certainly correct about the mushrooms planning our demise, it just seems so many people won't buy into my so-called 'theory'.

Cool
 
Old 08-14-2006, 08:34 PM   #55
Crashbox
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Not to get too far off track here, but the August 2006 issue of Linux Magazine has a nice article about open source licenses.
 
Old 08-14-2006, 09:27 PM   #56
vharishankar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinaman
This is just another one of Harishankar's flame bait troll threads against Slackware. He tried to master Slackware and couldn't, so now he's a Debian fan-boy. You can find plenty of this on his website, if you have the stomach for reading it.

This thread has no place in the Slackware forum and should be moved to General where the rest of this type of trash lives. So I for one am requesting it.

I am discussingbecause in reality there is no issue. This is just flame bait for Slackers.
Well, well, well... who do we have here? Mr. Moderator-wannabe the Great China Man!

There is no flame-bait here. I was genuinely interested and I can use Slackware. I do use Slackware because I like it as much as Debian. I am not a fanboy of any OS but I am not ashamed to be proud of being a Debian user.

For your information your post shows your pathetic ignorance about me because I used Debian long before I came to Slackware. Don't make yourself look so pathetic and downright stupid... people who know my posting history are aware that I take no distro-specific bias when it comes to defending Linux. On the other hand, narrow-minded bigots like you are always ready to dub people like me "trolls" because you cannot even envisage what I stand for or why I am passionate about these ideals.

You, sir, are not qualified to dub me a fanboy of any OS. I've been learning all the OSes because I want to develop the broad view. You on the other hand, choose to rubbish all other OSes other than Slackware and you have the audacity to call me a fanboy.

For your information, I am using Slackware presently and I am definitely mastering it. It's such an easy to use OS that I wonder why some Slackers like you choose to take the elitist path. Your attitude, quite frankly, is deliberately provocative and if there's anybody who's indulged in trollishness it's you. Others have responded positively to this thread, so there's no reason why you shouldn't. I am pretty certain that it's you who have an axe to grind against me.

Your dismal attempts to bully me and your very obvious personal animosity towards me are quite apparent to one and all in the forum. I have had enough experience of internet bullies like you. Don't think your tirade against me will prevent me from expressing my views freely on this forum. The Slackware forum is not your personal property, by the way...

So chew on that, eat it, swallow it, whatever the **** you want to do with it.

Last edited by vharishankar; 08-14-2006 at 09:47 PM.
 
Old 08-14-2006, 09:55 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harishankar
There is no flame-bait here.
Can I just say from a casual browser's viewpoint that it certainly seems that there is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harishankar
You, sir, are not qualified to dub me a fanboy of any OS.
What's with you dude? Calm down. Stop taking things so seriously. Do you honestly care what someone half a world away (and in all likelyhood you'll never meet face to face) thinks about you? If you do, you need help.

Get over yourself and stop the name calling.

And like you have been told by several others (including me): Drop the politics. This is Slackware. You can check your politics at the door. All we care about is doing the job properly, regardless of which tools we use.
 
Old 08-14-2006, 09:58 PM   #58
vharishankar
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By the way, I appreciate all the inputs in this thread which have contributed to the topic and has not indulged in personally attacking me. I know a few people on this forum who have an axe to grind against me because I dare to boldly express my views on these subjects, but other than that I have no problems with this thread.

If some people want to "act" moderators or want to see this thread closed, I suggest they either use the report feature and shut the hell up or just ignore it and move on.

Anybody who still thinks I'm anti-Slackware can live with their delusions - nobody's stopping you.

Quote:
Get over yourself and stop the name calling.
Quote:
What's with you dude? Calm down. Stop taking things so seriously. Do you honestly care what someone half a world away (and in all likelyhood you'll never meet face to face) thinks about you? If you do, you need help.
This is rich. Really rich. Let's go back to the beginning and see who spewed venom against me first. If you choose to act as a "mediator" you're not welcome.

I suggest that others do the same first and drop personal attacks against me. I certainly didn't start the name-calling and I certainly don't intend to be bullied by pretenders.

Stop preaching me what to discuss and what not to discuss on this forum. You don't own this place and you have no business telling me what to do and what not to do.

Last edited by vharishankar; 08-14-2006 at 10:03 PM.
 
Old 08-14-2006, 10:19 PM   #59
jeremy
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FWIW, I was the one who had Ray re-open this thread, as I was hoping the participants would be able to get this back on track and make it productive. That's obviously not the case, so now it gets closed for good. Harishankar, you seem to have a penchant for starting fairly controversial threads (which is absolutely fine...and in fact encouraged, IMHO), and then getting very heated when people disagree. Please refrain. Also a general reminder for all LQ members from the rules:
Quote:
# Do not post if you do not have anything constructive to say in the post.
# Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult and personal attack. Differing opinions is one of the things that make this site great.
If anyone has any questions, don't hesitate to contact me.

--jeremy
 
  


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