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Old 05-23-2019, 09:52 PM   #16
LuckyCyborg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttk View Post
Yes! The /extra/pure-alsa-system feature is one of the reasons I'm holding out for 15.0 to upgrade my laptop from Slackware 14.1.
If you talk about /extra/pure-alsa-system as a way of going back to the old days of manually switching the audio cards on ALSA, no thanks!

Last edited by LuckyCyborg; 05-23-2019 at 10:14 PM.
 
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:56 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
If you talk about /extra/pure-alsa-system as a way of going back to the old days of manually switching the audio cards on ALSA, no thanks!
My laptop only has one audio card, and it is excellently supported by ALSA. ALSA jfw, immediately upon installation, with all of my audio-using applications.

PulseAudio might, or might not. Some people see no problems whatsoever from PulseAudio, other people encounter impossible-to-troubleshoot problems which simply do not exist under pure ALSA.

Given the choice between never-problematic software that does everything I need, and maybe-sometimes-problematic software that does everything I need, going with the former seems like a no-brainer.

I understand that other people have different priorities. That's fine. I respect that you find PulseAudio the best solution for you. Perhaps you could repay me the courtesy and understand that pure ALSA is the best solution for me :-)
 
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Old 05-24-2019, 12:25 AM   #18
bassmadrigal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
If you talk about /extra/pure-alsa-system as a way of going back to the old days of manually switching the audio cards on ALSA, no thanks!
I only have one device, just analog speakers on my main PC and HDMI audio out with my HTPC. I usually had to do some manual tweaking when I would first install Slackware because the default output would be a device other than the one I wanted. But after that tweak, my troubles were over. Pulse is a bit easier in that aspect, but with my usage, it wouldn't be a big deal if pulse was dropped.

There's definitely benefits of a pulse-based system just as there's benefits for a pulse-free system... some benefits are likely bigger deals to some users than others. There's nothing wrong with desiring pulse to stay in Slackware, just as there's nothing wrong with wanting a pulse-free system. Luckily, Pat has given users their option on which to choose. I'll probably just stick with whatever's default.
 
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Old 05-24-2019, 03:36 AM   #19
GazL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
How do you expect mediation between differing programs that all want to send sound to an output device to happen? Something has to do it in a multitasking system. There used to be ESD, aRts, and Phonon (well, that's an API that uses various backends like GStreamer and VLC). I'm too lazy to look up more, but I remember using those 3 at one point or another.
arTs, ESD, etc. all predate alsa back to the OSS-Free days -- which could only output one stream at a time. That problem was resolved by alsa's 'dmix' plugin.

The main benefit of pulseaudio is that it provides on the fly sound routing. The downside is that it's designed around a per-user userspace daemon which can suffer cpu starvation and can introduce latency, and/or stuttering when the system is under heavy load.

The per-user design can be a problem if multiple pulseaudio daemons running for separate users fight over access to the hardware: only one can use the hardware device at once unless you reconfigure pulse to run on top of alsa's dmix to avoid that issue (which is how I do it).

Personally, I find the pure-alsa stuff Pat provides in extra/ unnecessary as one can easily configure to bypass pulse if that is what one wants/needs, but I suppose some folks like the purity of having a pulse free system.

In all honesty, despite its 'only one stream at a time' drawback, I think I preferred the OSS-Free days.

Last edited by GazL; 05-24-2019 at 03:37 AM.
 
Old 05-24-2019, 06:04 AM   #20
hazel
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Where to start? OK, Didier first. I am not complaining because I had to install extra packages. I am perfectly well aware that if you do not do a full install, you will have to deal with dependencies by hand. And I know how to do that. I found them all, didn't I? What I am complaining about is that one of those dependencies turned out to be PA, a package that I've heard very little good about on this forum and that seems not to be the kind of thing I expected to find as a compulsory dependency on Slackware.

The reason I didn't do a full install btw is because it involves downloading 3 GB of data and that's my entire monthly bandwidth allowance! I have a cheap Internet deal because I'm a pensioner and can't afford better.

Bassmadrigal & Chang Tzu: Compiling FF from source these days is a PITA because you need to have rust installed. And in addition, it's becoming more and more difficult not to use pulse. Mozilla seem to be deliberately closing off the alsa-only option. If you're interested, read the relevant posts in the BLFS development mailing list and you'll see what I mean.

My original post was half-humorous. Everyone says Slackware is different and in many ways it is. But it turns out to be not quite as different as I expected.
 
Old 05-24-2019, 06:16 AM   #21
GazL
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Pat had to choose between adding pulseaudio, or not supporting bluetooth. If Bluez hadn't forced the issue then we would probably still be running pulseaudio-free; though I suppose Pat may have decided to add it anyway if enough people were making noises about wanting it.
 
Old 05-24-2019, 06:25 AM   #22
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassmadrigal View Post
Isn't this only the case if you use the pre-compiled binary from Mozilla? I know building it is not the easiest thing, but surely that removes the dependency of pulse, right?
Currently that is true. As I understand it, the "lockout" is simply a single line somewhat like a kernel option. Set to "enable" and Bobs ur uncle. I've found that quite difficult on 14.2 Multilib due to difficulties with Rust and a few other components not the least of which is probably my own ignorance. So I've resorted to first Firefox-fuckPA which are a set of releases on github based on a Nightly with ALSA enabled but once I got up to v58 problems surfaced which I'm solving in two ways until the next full release. I am now using 60.3-ESR while exploring other browsers.

I do hope that with the next release we won't be forced to play constant catch-up to compile reasonably new versions of Firefox. Failing that my choices are move to a different browser or submit to PA and setup a dedicated ALSA-only version on it's own partition just for serious audio work and dual boot. The only other possibilities I can imagine are PA improving to be lighter weight more like Jack or for Jack or something like it to "step up" and be accepted as a viable alternative to PA.

I've tried apulse and other methods to get both ALSA and PA to coexist in some sort of on-demand capacity but PA doesn't play nice in my experience. It seems best to go all ALSA or all PA... well, at least to the extent that is possible since PA relies on ALSA it just requires complete control or things get quite complicated.
 
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Old 05-24-2019, 06:32 AM   #23
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
I am so glad that Slackware disappointed the OP by adopting the PulseAudio!

Because I remember with sadness the 14.0 days, when I had to spend more than a week investigating, reading and writing scripts, just to struggle with the switching between some no-name headphones, with USB digital link, and the main speakers. Honestly, I was at a step away from switching to a more traditional distro.

Fortunately, today is just a matter of plug and listen - thank you, Mr. Volkerding!

It is a huge step forward, in my humble opinion, even that's not so appreciated by the old ladies.
This is entirely rude and dismissive as well as intolerant and ignorant. I don't have a problem with people choosing PA. I just don't like being forced to use something that gives convenience but creates a huge performance hit. In fact, that's the very reason I have used Slackware for ~20 years. This begs the question why are you using Slackware then? Why not use Ubuntu if convenient hand-holding is what you prefer?
 
Old 05-24-2019, 06:54 AM   #24
cwizardone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
......The reason I didn't do a full install btw is because it involves downloading 3 GB of data and that's my entire monthly bandwidth allowance! I have a cheap Internet deal because I'm a pensioner and can't afford better......
Know the feeling. In this area prices have skyrocketed on just about everything. Every week it seems something I purchase on a regular basis has gone up in price by 10% or more. The government claims the inflation rate is 1.9%. HA! I don't know what planet they are on, but it isn't earth.
I'm bored and tired of living on a fixed income and have been looking for a "real job," but at my age it hasn't been easy........
Regardless, if you will send a postal address via a PM, I'll burn a couple of DVDs and put them in the mail. One would be a -current .iso and the other Alien's packages, plus anything else you might want. Just let me know.

Last edited by cwizardone; 05-24-2019 at 06:59 AM.
 
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Old 05-24-2019, 07:01 AM   #25
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
My original post was half-humorous. Everyone says Slackware is different and in many ways it is. But it turns out to be not quite as different as I expected.
In kind then imagine if a magic wand could be waved that overnight altered the UK to now drive on the proper side of the road ( ) Aside from an initial burst of accidents and traffic jams I'm pretty certain the UK would soldier on as always, relatively unchanged.

Audio is extremely important to me, including that on my PC since it is shared between a number of systems. It is over 1000 Watts, cost well over $3500 USD (my soundcard was just shy of $200) and at one time was an important source of income for semi-pro audio work. So I take PC Audio performance very seriously and I do seriously test what now must be hundreds of distros, but as seriously as I take PC Audio, my PC must do what I tell it to do and achieve a reasonable balance of adapting to new standards and only Slackware fills that bill in my experience.

Since it may be that Lennart Voldemort may have been given an early heads up about IBM's acquisition of RedHat and been given permission or even a directive of "There can be only One" and considering the $38,000,000,000.00 investment, for which I'm quite certain IBM expects a profitable return on investment (if not a chance to get even w/ Microsoft in the offing), the Linux community may well be subjected to ever more exclusive domineering "options". Given such things as the "Pure ALSA" option now in Current and slated for the next release, I'm betting that Pat V will be one of the top few holdouts so I'm in for the duration. Hope to see you there as well.

Now, completely back on topic, if you setup PA on 14.2 as it is implemented in the Full Recommended Install complete with proper groups and permissions, it will "just work". That's what it offers - Convenience, and the cost/tradeoff is something casual listeners will likely never miss.

Here's a funny tune you can use for a laugh and some testing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDE1ZvvHVVg

Last edited by enorbet; 05-24-2019 at 07:11 AM.
 
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Old 05-24-2019, 07:24 AM   #26
Didier Spaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
What I am complaining about is that one of those dependencies turned out to be PA, a package that I've heard very little good about on this forum and that seems not to be the kind of thing I expected to find as a compulsory dependency on Slackware.
I have heard the same things but don't care.

More practically, did you try what I suggested (remove /etc/asound.conf)?

That's the simplest way to get aplay, alsamixer and friends working without pulseaudio installed.

I just tried this in my Slint (based on Slackware64-14.2): remove PulseAudio then type these commands. It worked.

PS you can get my apulse package here and its md5sum. The source repository is there.

Then if really you don't want to have PulseAudio installed, you can still hear the sound of a video, e.g.:
Code:
apulse firefox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cg_0jepxow
Caveat emptor: apulse works with Firefox and Chromium, but is not guaranteed to work with any software linked to PulseAudio.

Last edited by Didier Spaier; 05-24-2019 at 07:45 AM. Reason: PS added.
 
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Old 05-24-2019, 08:12 AM   #27
Pixxt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GazL View Post
arTs, ESD, etc. all predate alsa back to the OSS-Free days -- which could only output one stream at a time. That problem was resolved by alsa's 'dmix' plugin.

The main benefit of pulseaudio is that it provides on the fly sound routing. The downside is that it's designed around a per-user userspace daemon which can suffer cpu starvation and can introduce latency, and/or stuttering when the system is under heavy load.

The per-user design can be a problem if multiple pulseaudio daemons running for separate users fight over access to the hardware: only one can use the hardware device at once unless you reconfigure pulse to run on top of alsa's dmix to avoid that issue (which is how I do it).

Personally, I find the pure-alsa stuff Pat provides in extra/ unnecessary as one can easily configure to bypass pulse if that is what one wants/needs, but I suppose some folks like the purity of having a pulse free system.

In all honesty, despite its 'only one stream at a time' drawback, I think I preferred the OSS-Free days.
The main benefit of pulseaudio over pure ALSA is lower cpu usage which makes for a smoother desktop experience. Back a few years ago when my main desktop blew up do to an bad PSU, I had to use Intel Atom based netbooks and cheap Celeron Laptop to do any computing and since I love to play music in the background I noticed those little processors could not keep up. Out of the blue just because I was bored I installed pulseaudio just to tinker around and see if it was still crappy, and lo and behold my desktop was more responsive and the same music apps and video apps I used where using between 10 to 25% less cpu then with just ALSA+Dmix alone. I used to bash pulseaudio back ten to twelve years ago because it was buggy and made my audio freeze or glitch,it was on my uninstall list when distro hopping, but since you know who stopped being the main project leader of pulseaudio it has come a long way.
 
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Old 05-24-2019, 08:22 AM   #28
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Didier Spaier View Post
I have heard the same things but don't care.

More practically, did you try what I suggested (remove /etc/asound.conf)?

That's the simplest way to get aplay, alsamixer and friends working without pulseaudio installed.

I just tried this in my Slint (based on Slackware64-14.2): remove PulseAudio then type these commands. It worked.
Yes, that works. Thank you.
 
Old 05-24-2019, 08:45 AM   #29
Fat_Elvis
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Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
That said, it actually does perform an important job unlike systemd especially for those not seeking audiophile performance and just like to hear background music, movies, and possibly system alert sounds.
Quote:
So most likely the best solution for you, at least on 14.2 and probably from now on (unless something else competes with PA as a "symphonic conductor") is to just go with PA as it does make things easier for those who have only minor casual interest in PC audio. As usual Pat V does a superb job of walking the tightrope between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea.
Yo, this is actually relevant to my interests. What is this about Pulseaudio and audio quality? I'm looking for a good reason to dump the Pulse packages and spend a week (lol) trying to make USB audio work properly. (Not joking).

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
If you talk about /extra/pure-alsa-system as a way of going back to the old days of manually switching the audio cards on ALSA, no thanks!
There was a note about that in the ChangeLog too. That sounds so odd. I honestly can't think of a situation where someone would want to switch audio interfaces on the fly, with the sole exception of wireless headsets. If that's the case, then yeah...
 
Old 05-24-2019, 10:26 AM   #30
ZhaoLin1457
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Speaking of how an average Linux user arrives today to need "to switch audio interfaces on the fly", I would like to note that today exists PC speakers which are powered over USB, and they also get the audio signal over USB, exposing themselves to computer as an USB audio card. Some random examples:

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-S150.../dp/B000ZH98LU
https://www.amazon.com/iMicro-Digita.../dp/B003RRY900
https://www.amazon.com/iMicro-SP-IMD...dp/B001RRDCJ6/

There are also even high quality headphones in the same style, getting the audio signal over USB, for example:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/hea...ones/mdr-1adac

Every time when an average Linux user insert his headphones like this in computer, and happens to use also speakers as shown, he needs to switch the 2 USB audio interfaces on fly.

It is trivial to do that with PulseAudio, I am not sure if it's so simple under pure ALSA.

And as a side note about "old ladies" from my vague knowledge about the Russian slang, they are the WWW2 veterans, now in their 90, and having today an all-knowing attitude, considering themselves the fathers of the nation and who should have always the last word in any issue. At least this is how they are seen today by the younger ones, who greatly respect them, but also giving some good chuckles about their gramps behavior.

Last edited by ZhaoLin1457; 05-24-2019 at 10:44 AM.
 
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