Slackware Graphical Admin Tools
 

I have an opportunity to get involved with updating customer computers from Windows XP to a Linux based system. :D

The customers will be home and small business users. We need graphical admin tools.

I want Slackware or a derivative in the preliminary discussion, but I admit to living a sheltered life the past several years with respect to Slackware derivatives and third-party tools. I do not know what graphical admin tools exist. Specifically, we need at least the following, which the stock Slackware does not provide:

* Graphical boot splash. (Command line output is fine when debugging but for everyday usage the customers need the command line output hidden.)

* A graphical package manager. (I am aware of only one such app: gslapt?)

* Automated dependency checking. (Overall I dislike dependency checking but the end-users need this. They need point-and-click package installations.)

* A graphical update notifier.

* Other graphical tools that eliminate using the terminal.

Are such graphical admin tools available for Slackware?

Thanks much. :)

Webmin does a bunch of administrative stuff ... I don't have it installed atm, and I've only ever *toyed* with it (especially helpful, iirc, troubleshooting a cups issue), so I'm no expert....

I know it's available at sbopkg, and it certainly fits into your *other* category.

cheers,

try typing

notify-send "thou hast an update" "at your disposal"

I recommend webmin also. Outside of the console, webmin is fairly effective, and is nearly the same UI style that most home routers utilize. It requires a good web browser, but it's clean and thorough.

I'm sorry to say that maybe Slackware is not what you are looking for here. Certainly you can find and install many of these, but would it still be Slackware when you're done ? I don't think so.

Perhaps, kikinovak's solution, http://www.microlinux.fr/mled.php

There is also, Salix, http://www.salixos.org/

If you have to move away from Slackware, I was looking at Linux Mint recently and was very impressed with what they have done, especially with the Xfce desktop.

PC-BSD, which is a GUI setting on top of FreeBSD, is also very nice and the entire system can be ran from the GUI, but it is a major resource hog.

I second the advice to take a look at Salix. It uses gslapt with dep tracking, and has graphical notification of updates. It also has graphical tools for admin tasks.

Salix is also compatible with slackbuilds and slackware packages.

Looks like I did not make myself clear. :) Our focus is user-based admin tools. For example, a graphical package manager is part of the criteria. slackpkg will not suffice unless somebody has a nice graphical front-end to slackpkg.

By graphical I mean desktop graphical compliant, not ncurses. :) I have used Slackware for a long time, more than a decade. I don't think twice about using the command line, but this new opportunity requires me to look at things almost as though the terminal does not exist.

I am aware of MLED, but I don't believe whether MLED supports things like a boot splash, dependency checking, etc. And for right now, MLED is Xfce-only.

I forgot about Salix. I think Absolute had some graphical admin tools too.

On the other hand, Salix is advertised as a distro intended for lazy Slackers. Meaning, despite the additional graphical tools, Salix probably needs more work to create the type of environment we seek. For example, I don't think Salix supports a boot splash.

I suspect in the end that is what will happen. The final distro has to be ultra user-centric, completely pointy-clicky. We also are leaning toward a semi-rolling release because most non technical users don't understand why an OS has to be updated or becomes "obsolete" every 6 to 12 months. From their perspective, they used XP for 12 years and never "updated" the OS. They only updated service packs. From that perspective the list grows rather short to distros like Linux Mint Debian Edition and PCLinuxOS. Arguably Slackware Current could be used as a semi rolling release, but I can see all of these non technical users getting in trouble with that.

This all has to be as turn-key as possible. $$. These customers definitely will not be Slackers. We'll be dealing with people who are not technical at all or, people who believe that learning to change the wallpaper qualifies them to call themselves a geek. :)

I am not enthused about using a different distro but I suppose I need to step out of my comnfort zone. I started this thread with the hope that I could cobble together a Slackware based system with sufficient graphical tools. I'm still looking. :)

I don't think there is any Linux distribution at all that I would inflict on the kinds of users you describe, Woodsman. If I was unable to remain their 'paid tech support' in an ongoing capacity, I just wouldn't feel like they'd make it.
Caring for a discrete LAN in someone's office is one thing, but sending complete pointy-clickies out into the wild unsupervised on "Linucks", gives me the heeby-jeebies. Can't see that ending well, sir.
Not with any distro.
At some point, they're going to "need" Super-Poly-Pully Pro, and you're going to have to break the horrible news "that only runs on Windows and OSX".

Bob protect us from unsupervised pointy-clickies in the wild. Heh-heh. Funny stuff. :)

Check out vector linux. Graphical admin tools, slack based and all the multimedia libs already installed and ready to go. It uses xfce and the cairo dock as the gui. It does use gslapt iirc.

Points taken STDOUBT. Several times I have talked myself out of this kind of project.

At the moment I am approaching this with a 80/20 perspective. That is, about 80% of the customers will have no special Windows needs. Just surf, email, stream online videos. Our advice to Netflix junkies will be to buy a network enabled TV, set top box, or keep using Windows (yes, I know about Pipelight). Most of the Netflix junkies in this area are already using TVs or STBs.

The remaining 20% will have some kind of Windows dependency, Quicbooks/Quicken, Visio, vertical apps, etc. I don't know how we'll deal with that. I never have been a fan of WINE/PlayOnLinux, but VMs, dual booting, and dedicated Windows machines play a role. Some will be told to just update to Windows 7 or 8.1. :)

Service contracts will play some kind of role in this endeavor. Probably some level of fee-based training classes too, which will include cross platform apps, such as LibreOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird, etc.

I am well prepared that a year later we throw in the proverbial towel. We might not even get started after we evaluate distros with a cynical, er, critical eye.

If nothing else I pad the resume and make contacts. Who knows, there might be some server related projects waiting, which can not only be Linux based but Slackware based. :)

Okay, thanks.

I have a (possible) solution right for your needs, but we need to talk on PM or via email. :hattip:

and
I migrated my father-in-law off winXP several years ago:

* App replacements (word/excel, slingbox, robust web browser and a Timex IronMan app) were put in place via xfce desktop launchers, most of which ran bash shell wrappers to keep things tidy and/or mimic windows behavior he was used to.

* replicated his existing "My Documents", etc directory structures

* integrated a 1/day + 1/week /home backup to a separate area via rsync

* IE -> firefox

Since windows updates and security patches were an "invisible" process, slack package management was modeled similarly:

* it was "invisible" to him

* slack security patches for existing apps checked once a week

* firefox, flash, java and icedtea every three days.

If something went wrong I got an email and fixed the problem over a remote vnc session.

Most users view the computer as a tool and have no desire to know how/why, just that things work. I'd avoid as much user decision making as possible.

Good luck.

Hmm, try and see http://salixos.org/

But really, I think you're looking for another distribution and Slackware (or close derivates) simply isn't what you need :) Maybe, if you reach the same conclusion try http://www.linuxmint.com/..

AFAIK Linux Mint no longer comes with KDE which is easier for Windows Weenies, especially the newer Win 8 Touch Screen Nuts, since a similar interface is selectable in KDE. When Mint dropped KDE, a really good fork was created, SolydXK, which comes in 2 flavors, Xfce and KDE. It is compatible with Debian repos and very simple and solid. There is also a Business Edition. Check it out here

To be perfectly candid I tried it out for gaming and frankly wanted to hate it. I've tried to break it with common "stupid pet tricks" and, well, it's rather resistant to such "efforts". I don't know what's in the water in The Netherlands or the genes of Dutchmen but some surely seem to know how to do "simple and solid".

Sorry, not so,

http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2530

http://linuxmint.com/

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint

I really liked gnome-pkgtool in the past:

http://gnome-pkgtool.sourceforge.net/

nostalgia :)

Hi Woodsman,

In your search for slackware-based system administration guis, are you finding they are pretty much all out-of-date? In my understanding, they are. Would it be acceptable to you if we brew one up for your needs? Since your question mainly is of package management, I think it would be easy to create a gui front-end to slackpkg. I have done some of this for other purposes before, and if you don't want to get involved in programming, I would be glad to help.

My biggest concern with KDE is Akonadi. The KDE devs have moved KDE toward the enterprise (not a bad thing), but with respect to PIM apps basically left single users out in the cold. I have KDE 4.10.5 installed and Akonadi serves no useful purpose on my system. For me, the only thing Akonadi does is duplicate all PIM data files. I have created script wrappers to use Trinity PIM apps whenever I use KDE.

Many of our potential customers will be single home users or small business owners who do not have or need enterprise support. For such users Akonadi creates a burden I do not want to deal with. Please understand this is not a KDE bashing statement. This is a usability statement. Akonadi does not set well with me and never will. Currently there is no compatible PIM option for KDE users who do not want the Akonadi overhead, even with Razor-Qt.

Trinity PIM apps are much better behaved because Akonadi does not exist, but Trinity is a slow moving project. I am comfortable using Trinity daily, but I need an official R14 release before I would offer that desktop to users.

By the way, the Whisker menu for Xfce is much nicer than the stock Xfce menu. Niki, you might want to look at that. Available at slackbuilds.org too.

To be specific, Linux Mint comes with a KDE version but only with the Ubuntu base. I will not use any 'buntu derivative.

LMDE does not include a KDE base --- only Cinnamon and MATE. I am sure KDE can be downloaded from the Mint repositories, but I do not know whether the Mint look-and-feel comes with those packages. If not then perhaps SolidXK fits the bill, or at least the KDE packages from SolidXK.

Yesterday I made an initial test run with LMDE Cinnamon. I am enormously impressed with the complete GUI experience. A boot splash, wonderful control center, a superb package manager, well designed menus, GUI package update notifier, a clean and crisp design. I would like to see Cinnamon 2.0 build scripts for Slackware (I see the thread discussing this but haven't looked for build scripts).

Not to forget that LMDE is a semi-rolling release with regular update packs (service packs in Windows lingo), which is easier for customers.

My first impression is the difference in philosophy. We Slackers enjoy Slackware because Slackware is a distro that is tailored and intended to get in our way the least. As many have stated through the years, Slackware is not a hand-holding distro. That is exactly why I use Slackware.

Yet I am not naive enough to believe typical non techie users want any of that. They do indeed want hand holding and they treat computers as appliances rather than tools. Linux Mint is very much designed for these types of users.

Can Slackware be molded into such a project? Yes, of course, but do I have the savvy to create such an environment? Probably not and certainly not without a lot of screaming and four letter words. That said, I am evaluating Slackware derivative distros to learn whether I can pull together pieces. Something similar to MLED in approach. My first criterion is whether I can do (almost) everything without a terminal. Second criterion is look-and-feel.

A noticeable difference with Mint and Slackware derivatives is I don't see the same spit and polish with any derivative. There is an underlying presumption with all Slackware derivatives that users must use the command line. Linux Mint is not built with that underlying philosophy.

Bear in mind that if we use a non Slackware base then I more than likely have to leave Slackware too. I will need to be intimately familiar with whatever we support. That intimacy is created only through daily usage. I am not too enthused about leaving my own comfort zone with Slackware.

At the moment I see Linux Mint as a great option for customers, but no so much for me. That is, I am very comfortable with Slackware through the past decade or so. At the moment I am resisting stepping out of my comfort zone. A Debian based system is plenty different enough to introduce a learning curve for me.

I recall at one time asking here in LQ whether a GUI front-end was in the future plans for slackpkg.

I lack the skills for any such project. If you want to do this for your own satisfaction and challenge then please do so, but do not do this for me. We haven't yet even written a business plan let alone allocate a budget for outsourcing development. :)

To my knowledge the only Slackware GUI package manager tool is gslapt, which is a GTK2 app. I have no idea how much work would be involved to adapt gslapt to GTK3, Qt4/5 or TQt (Trinity). Also gslapt is a GUI front-end to slapt-get rather than the stock slackpkg.

To me, a better approach is to write something from scratch in Python that wraps around slackpkg (and slackpkg+) and supports hooking into GTK2, GTK3, Qt4/5, and TQt. A GUI package manager should match the surrounding desktop environment.

Likewise with other existing GUI tools, such as those found in Salix, Zenwalk, or Absolute. From my limited needs, those tools should be expanded to support the different GUIs rather than only GTK2. I am not expecting or asking those project developers to do that because that is, understandably, beyond their project scope. I am just offering an observation.

Woodsman,
Many thanks for that. Very nicely done.
:hattip:

Debian is a first rate OS. Debian+XFce is very light and fast. I have a vm of it and run it on my netbook from time to time.

Oh, I agree. In my previous post I was referring only to my own learning curve. :) While I expect no difficulties, I nonetheless have to spend sufficient time to learn the Debian/Mint way. Time, time, time....

I am rather fond of apt-get it is an interesting package manager. I predict you will also like it a lot. At the moment I'm making an effort to learn more about my favourite version of Unix(OpenBSD). I bought a really good book, Absolute OpenBSD. :)

I haven't used it myself but I remember reading about QTGZManager, which is a GUI package manager for Slackware (that can also update packages from patches/). However, I don't think it supports third-party repositories (though again I haven't used it) so it is only half a solution.

One of the key principles of my business is the strict separation of system administration and system use. When a client (school, town hall, public library, company, whatever) asks me to install a Linux-based network for them, I am in charge of system administration, which means I install the system, configure it, take care of integrating applications, etc. The user, on the other hand, only has to use the system, e. g. log in, fire up the desktop, start applications and work with them. These are two completely different tasks, and they never ever have to be mixed up.

If a client asked me to do what you describe, I would simply refuse to do it. I would explain to him that what he wants to do boils down to system administration, and since he wants to take care of it, well, he can take care of it. But if he needs someone to clean up after his mess, he will have to call someone else. Experience with self-appointed Linux-admins taught me some lessons.

You can make the transition from Windows to GNU/Linux only so much pain free. The rest are just aesthetics that can be easily avoided like bootsplash. As long as KDM or GDM work, then why fuss over it?

While I respect your thought as keeping things simple and pure. Slackware is a very stable tool built to run software as vanilla as it can.
So think of Slackware as the best tool belt in the world and up to you to put the tools you want in them.

Hey that's a Admin decision :)

I'd prefer this myself, but sometimes users want control of their own system. I know from what you said elsewhere you don't pursue this customer type. But let's say what if, a customer/friend wants a gui like what they are used to. Slackware doesn't provide distro specific gui tools, like in package managing. If it did, I probably would have more home users on slackware right now. Yes, not having the strict separation of admin and user control is bad, but that is a risk many small-time / home users take as they are used to it. Familiarity/compatibility is a strong selling point and it doesn't have to violate the slackware philosophy, nor take away admin choices in different settings. I am willing to build on slackware as it is a strong base for simplicity and user control even when it might mean I am going to spend a little more effort making it easier for everyone. At least when I get something done, it's always reusable many times over with no effort.

Could you give an example of an easy installation with dependency handling? Even better if it is slackware centric. I think the closest I can think of is sbopkg & queue files. But I'm guessing you would not want the user to compile things?

For those rare cases like for example my dad who lives 1.500 km away, I usually use Ubuntu LTS with a few tweaks.

Niki, I much admire you and your business. Yet that business model has limitations for us. The majority of your customers are multi-user environments and not single point home users.

I don't believe that model will work for most home users. To home users, that model is the equivalent of a store policy that nobody can buy a computer unless they also buy a service contract. To home users this model is vendor lock-in.

Yet I envision a corollary model that would be more palatable for home users. A fixed fee for installation and migration of data and the fee includes, for example, 2 hours of support time. Sell that approach as a package.

Another approach is to offer optional service contracts. A challenge with this approach is the provider needs to work as efficiently as possible to make a profit because service contracts tend to be fixed fee. Offering such contracts is a game of numbers with the presumption that most people will never ask for help.

Many business people more than likely expect to buy a support or service contract, perhaps even demand such a contract, but home users don't. This is the "appliance" mentality. Home users expect the computer to "just work."

I am well aware of the counter arguments against supporting "brain dead" home users. I have my own reservations about such support. At the moment those users remain a target audience we want to consider.

That would be part of our initial discussion too. Yet again, there is a difference between supporting multi-user environments and single point users.

Conversely, to play devil's advocate, I envision some people with some computer knowledge to argue with me that if a Linux based system is that complicated as to require additional support contracts, that they then have no interest, and they might as well update to Windows 7 because they then would have no migration issues or learning curve.

Despite many arguments against using Windows, XP did more or less "just work" for most people, especially at the home user level. Most home users are not tech savvy people. Generally, they brought a new computer home with Windows XP preinstalled. They pressed the power button and everything "just worked." They will expect the same thing with a Linux based system.

I am not claiming Windows is without problems and challenges. There are just as many online forums for helping Windows users as Linux forums. Yet the overall perception by most people is the computer should "just work." This attitude is becoming more prevalent with the advent of smart phones and tablets.

For me, a big concern with supporting Linux based computer systems is not the initial migration, or even conversion of user data, but peripherals. Primarily printers and scanners. Printers and scanners are not the best supported area with Linux based systems. I can't tell customers to just buy a supported printer or scanner. They will scoff and walk away.

Separating system administration and system use is viable for certain types of customers but not all. :)

I agree. Computers are complex tools. Yet as I mentioned in my previous post, there is a growing perception with the usage of smart phones and tablets --- right or wrong, that these complex tools should "just work." The tinkerer's and geek's brains are wired differently from the majority of people.

Analogies always have limitations, but that was the same basic attitude of Henry Ford: "You can have any color you want as long as you order black." Aesthetics are important to a significant number of computer users. A boot splash might seem irrelevant to you and me, but not to many other users. I much prefer having the boot process output scroll by, but am not so naive as to ignore that such output horrifies many users.

Hmm, I almost forgot..

http://www.pclinuxos.com/ is also something you might consider..

Again, I'm still pressing on about the actual use of Slackware..

On one hand, even XP is hard to install for normal day-to-day end-users and the most difficult cases in my last few years of free-lancing was exactly based upon people trying to do that the wrong way (the problem was that most of them did not know how to handle partitions or, if they throw that part, they didn't know to get proper drivers and ended up needing support after installing some weird program that searches for them automagically -- in exchange for a few malwares.. )

So, installing a modified version of Slackware and getting away with it might be a good idea.. But what happens when they start browsing and finding programs that they would like to try (most of them have precompiled .deb packages for Ubuntu or Debian.. or .rpm packages for SuSE.. on Slackware things are different)
Also, even the stuff from SBO will not be available for them...

Don't get me wrong, I love Slack.. I use it.. I would recommend it to someone that can pick up the phone if has any questions and neither of us mind (nor pay anything).. But to actual end-user customers that expect things to just work!? Nope.. Wouldn't do it..

Try to find and use the best tool for the job, Slackware just isn't in this situation, in my opinion..

The stability of Slackware was never a point of discussion. I have been using Slackware for at least a decade, probably longer. Moreso, this entire thread is not about vanilla usage. :)

In a previous post I agreed that Slackware can be used as a base. The challenge is whether I can massage Slackware into a product similar to LMDE. From my perspective I do not believe any existing Slackware derivative has the same degree of spit and polish as LMDE. The discussion never was about whether Slackware could be massaged as such, but whether any GUI tools already exist to move toward such a goal.

Correct. I have no expectations that customers are going to start compiling packages. Although I compile all of my own packages outside of the stock Slackware, as I age I am leaning more and more toward getting away from that. I just want to use the software. Similarly, customers want and expect a GUI package manager. Point, click, download, and use the app.

I have considered that distro. I haven't yet tested.

That would be my preferred choice, if I can find all the appropriate tools. Yet while a hodge-podge collection of tools likely would satisfy most Slackers, that design approach won't suffice for our customers. :)

Another concern of mine, not addressed in my original post of this thread, is wide-scale software selection. While Slackware has a decent third party repository selection --- when combining the repositories of Eric, Niki, Robbie, Salix, Absolute, etc., the number of available packages still pales compared to other distros. A quick example is another thread I started. No such packages or build scripts exist for Slackware. In this particular example, the customer is a computer savvy person who uses Linux systems. Explaining that the packages do not exist won't fly, especially when the packages do exist for the specific distro he wants to use.

I agree with your statements, but none of our costumers will be installing the operating system. We will be offering turnkey preinstalled solutions.

I agree. This ties into my reply above about repositories. In the case of SBO packages we would have to maintain our own repository.

Yes, points I offered in previous posts.

Yes, this will be a challenging project if we move forward. But there is the potential to have a lot of fun too. :)

Well, if you do decide to continue, please, if possible, share some of your work :)

I don't do home users, so I can't really tell. When a company approaches me, they usually have very clear specifications about tasks and corresponding applications. My job is simply to install an environment that meets the specs, no more no less. Eventually I do a little training for the users, and then I'm coming over from time to time to do a little maintenance. Which is way less than most of them had before on their Windows installations. So far, everybody's happy.

Technically, there is a complete suite of applications with graphical user interface for configuring Slackware.

It's called ALICE, is made up of no less than 10 applications, the installer is called YaLI and it supports three different distribution types for installation. It even has a graphical partitioner, in the style of GParted...

It was developed by DARKSTAR Linux, in collaboration with two other distributions derived from Slackware, namely easys GNU/Linux and Bluewhite64 Linux, also its development was sponsored by a German company.

As an interesting note, ALICE supported a Slackware x86_64, before the advent of Slackware64.

True, now it 's at the level of Slackware 12.2, and ALICE is written in Qt3, which is now history...

But its code is there, and ALICE/YaLI could be rewritten in Qt4 and updated to today technology.

But at the level that is ALICE, this suite of applications is too complicated to be developed as a hobby. It takes at least a programmer in C/C++, connoisseur of Qt and Slackware, to work full time for maintaining and developing it. That's why it took the collaboration of three Linux distributions for its development... :hattip:

The graphical tools are very nice, but them require a huge amount of skilled work, that make a must for someone to pay for them... ;)

Hmm. I hadn't thought about that. Intriguing idea: maintain a journal that later can be transcribed into something useful for others.

Yes, I understand that you don't support those users. :)

I agree and that same approach is useful for home users. Their list of specifications and applications usually is shorter than business users, but the bottom line is both types of users expect everything to "just work." Both types of users have budget and skill restraints. They are willing to buy solutions and products, but they expect to receive value. The definition of value varies wildly and is part of the contract discussions, even if the contract is "only" installing a Linux based system on a single system. Regardless of that definition or perception, they still expect to press the power button and everything "just works."

That is a good point. With Windows they almost always bought a product that came with no support. Some business users bought service contracts from somebody, or hired IT professionals in house, or took training classes, etc. I do not expect a Linux based system to be any different. The difference is nobody in this geographical area offers full support or training classes for Linux based systems. Thus, there is a nice opportunity here for steady business growth in providing those missing services.

That really is the end of the story, regardless of who the customer might be. :)

Interesting. Too bad the project withered away.

I think it was Slackware 10.0 around there. I took the kde package manager and hacked it some to do slackpkg update that was years ago. it was kind of fun kept me busy for a while. It really was not the that great LOL.

I think Slacko Pup has done well keeping up with the puppy package manager for the Slackware programs. It really tries hard for dependencies. Plus the way for a simple interface to the gui. While back I did a base install of slackware 14.1 then ported many of the puppy no arch scripts and the desk top from slackbuilds. it was a super light system and had a lot of fun.

I was amazed how easy it was to port the scripts to 64 bit system.

Actually, professional users usually have short and clear specifications, compared to home users. This being said, I'm also the sysadmin for nearly all my friends and neighbors, and I installed my personal blend of Slackware on their computers.

basically you have a lot of installation where the bus factor* for administration is about 1?
(but for installation where people are fare away you recommend some kind of Ubuntu, as you mentioned earlier, (bus factor applied already, use other system?).)
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor

I understand this form a business point if view, put I think it is possible not optimal for the customers/people that depend on you ;-)

I don't think this graphical package manager on top of pkgtools has been mentioned yet: http://qtgzmanager.wordpress.com/

There's a SlackBuild for it on slackbuilds.org.

Eric

Yes. Which is why I prefer the woods to the highway for my daily morning run.

Hi, I've given qtgzmanager a try, it seems that the last version I found is for slackware 14.0. This patch adds sl14.1 support https://www.dropbox.com/s/tc78l1bmfy...1-did.patch.gz
I've made some quick tests, seems to be working ok. So far I've used it mainly as a browser for local packages and it looks promising.

I have a copy of a really obscure front-end for pkgtools -written by Mark Tyler, the author of mtpaint. The package is called 'mtsuit' and can built for use with either gtk1 or gtk2. One could, of course, also use gtkdialog to put together a GUI for the existing tools.

The problem of dealing with dependencies remains, though, since the package format itself is not capable of handling them at all -not even of providing information. All the external efforts such as slapt-get, sbopkg, etc, all suffer from the lack of information *contained within the packages*. sbopkg can help to extend the system, but no one provides any functionality which will let you cut the system down. The standard advice of 'only full systems are supported' is, frankly, lame and unhelpful for any special needs/desires.