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Old 03-12-2018, 05:47 PM   #16
enorbet
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ping Lysander666 - I think I can answer all your questions rather simply, and I think you haven't "gotten it" yet in Slackware because you are preferential to automated updating. I never do any manner of automated updates...ever with Slackware. I have never had any program, application, package or file ever altered in any way I wasn't privy to and never any breakage. My comparison of Arch and Debian which I agree are quite different, was only in that both recommend at least weekly maintenance and often include very fundamental base packages.

I didn't boot my Debian Stretch install for 3 weeks and there were 1050 updates when I finally did. To me that's just insane and ties up my computer time for way too long, especially considering that nothing really feels all that different after all that time spent twiddling my thumbs or playing Freecell while I wait for updates to complete. Whether running pacman or apt-get, both Debian and Arch will update the kernel which requires re-installing nvidia drivers or submitting to KMS and screwing up LILO creating a need for grub which is even more automated junk. I build a custom kernel for Slack and keep it for at least a year and don't want any automated update to change it forcing me into an avalanche of inter-dependent updates.

The only thing I regularly update in Slackware is nvidia drivers when I feel like it and wine because of it's catch-up nature and both of those are months apart and those are booth due to gaming. Other than that the bulk of the system requires no maintenance for years beyond a rare security patch and a monthly run of rkhunter which never turns up anything but I force myself to keep that routine, which also exist on any other distro in addition to weekly updates. Years versus a week, that what I experience and why I eschew any concession to automated "convenience". FWIW I have a secondary dedicated DAW box still running Slack 13.37 which hasn't been updated at all except for some security patches.
 
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Old 03-12-2018, 07:13 PM   #17
glorsplitz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassmadrigal View Post
But Slackware is a great system. I've been using it for over 15 years and I wouldn't have it any other way
same here
 
Old 03-13-2018, 12:15 AM   #18
mralk3
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A bit off topic for the Slackware forum, but I think this needs to be cleared up for the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I didn't boot my Debian Stretch install for 3 weeks and there were 1050 updates when I finally did.
I think you are confusing Debian Stretch with Debian Sid. I am running Debian Stretch on my print server and there are maybe 2-5 updated packages a week. The 9.3 point release was updated to 9.4 in the last few days and I think I had like 20-25 (I didn't count) package updates at the most. Debian Sid is the unstable branch, and if you are using that, the 1050 updates makes more sense.

Debian unstable is eternally named Sid. Only Debian testing, Debian stable, and Debian oldstable change release code names after a new Debian Stable is released to the public.

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases
Quote:
Current Releases/Repositories
  • oldstable - The previous stable release (Jessie).
  • stable - The current stable release (Stretch).
  • testing - The next generation release (Buster).
  • unstable - The unstable development release (Sid), where new or updated packages are introduced.

Last edited by mralk3; 03-13-2018 at 12:17 AM.
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 12:58 AM   #19
enorbet
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My apologies to all here as I did make a mistake. Initially I installed Stretch but after 2 months I "upgraded" it to Buster and just confused the two monikers. I wasn't attempting to deceive anyone. Hopefully most will still see that I have a valid point that convenience and automation, both of which mean "let somebody else do it" is not free. It does come at a cost and requires upkeep. Locking it all down is the lowest maintenance there is and with Slackware one can easily do just that. The choice is yours but don't just blindly buy into the concept that crutches are universally "Good". They are only good when your legs are broken. If that's what you prefer I can have no quarrel with that choice but please do recognize the real difference.
 
Old 03-13-2018, 07:36 AM   #20
Lysander666
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There has been some excellent advice in this thread so far. I think the time spend between the OP's... OP... and now has been well spent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by montagdude View Post
I should also add that sbopkg and sbotools can at least replace your spreadsheet of dependencies. In your case, when qmplay2 broke, you could have used sqg (sbopkg's dependencies tool) or sbotools to list the dependencies, and then realize that you updated libass recently. Personally, I use sboui and pretty much always rebuild inverse dependencies, unless I know that it is not required for a certain case.
I have installed sboui but am yet to use it since I need to get to grips with it, it seems more complicated than sbopkg. I didn't know that I could use sqg though, I'll look into that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GazL View Post
The way I do it is I use symlinks.
Really good advice and very useful, thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Other than that the bulk of the system requires no maintenance for years beyond a rare security patch and a monthly run of rkhunter which never turns up anything but I force myself to keep that routine, which also exist on any other distro in addition to weekly updates. Years versus a week, that what I experience and why I eschew any concession to automated "convenience". FWIW I have a secondary dedicated DAW box still running Slack 13.37 which hasn't been updated at all except for some security patches.
Interesting, I am starting to see that it is indeed possible to leave Slack [or some packages] without updates for a while. Regarding 13.37, in another thread Pat said they were looking to announce EOL soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
My apologies to all here as I did make a mistake. Initially I installed Stretch but after 2 months I "upgraded" it to Buster and just confused the two monikers.
Yes, be careful not to consider moving to testing an upgrade, if anything it's a downgrade. You'll get newer packages, but the potential for breakage is much higher - in fact packages are supposed to break in order to find fixes for the next stable.

Last edited by Lysander666; 03-13-2018 at 07:43 AM.
 
Old 03-13-2018, 12:33 PM   #21
travis82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
I have installed sboui but am yet to use it since I need to get to grips with it, it seems more complicated than sbopkg.
I beg to differ. sboui makes working with sbo simpler and more intuitive.
 
Old 03-13-2018, 12:44 PM   #22
montagdude
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Probably the "coming to grips" is with the keyboard shortcuts. I recommend hitting '?' from the main screen and getting familiar with them.

Last edited by montagdude; 03-13-2018 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Woops, forgot the shortcuts myself
 
Old 03-13-2018, 06:14 PM   #23
linuxbawks
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I've only just come over from Debian Stable after using it for five years. I used SUSE and then Fedora before that and never looked back.
I tend to have a specific use case and as such have very limited requirements or expectations of Xorg. Doesn't matter, I have found all the packages I need in SW. There are only a handful I have had to build from source. I have found SW to be a simple to use distribution and also simple to deploy and maintain. The packaging in SW however is premature and hasn't been thought through very well. It's nothing in comparison to aptitude but it works (almost barely). This is not a deal breaker for me as I enjoy the simplicity of SW in the first place.

I prefer building custom packages for SW. The alternative in Debian is a little more complicated. You firstly have to set up an entire debbuild configuration and it's much less straightforward to remember. However Debian does get you going very fast and is much better maintained.
 
Old 03-13-2018, 06:21 PM   #24
Richard Cranium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxbawks View Post
The packaging in SW however is premature and hasn't been thought through very well.
I'm not sure what that sentence even means.
 
Old 03-13-2018, 06:24 PM   #25
Skaendo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
I'm not sure what that sentence even means.
Trolls gonna troll ya know.
 
Old 03-13-2018, 07:04 PM   #26
mralk3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaendo View Post
Trolls gonna troll ya know.
He likes to talk in half truths, and passes them off as facts.
 
Old 03-13-2018, 10:08 PM   #27
Richard Cranium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mralk3 View Post
He likes to talk in half truths, and passes them off as facts.
Just because someone is wrong about one thing does not mean they are wrong about all things. If he attempts to help other users and is successful in doing so, then I will agree to disagree with him upon how Slackware package management should work.
 
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:22 AM   #28
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxbawks View Post
I've only just come over from Debian Stable after using it for five years. I used SUSE and then Fedora before that and never looked back.
I tend to have a specific use case and as such have very limited requirements or expectations of Xorg. Doesn't matter, I have found all the packages I need in SW. There are only a handful I have had to build from source. I have found SW to be a simple to use distribution and also simple to deploy and maintain. The packaging in SW however is premature and hasn't been thought through very well. It's nothing in comparison to aptitude but it works (almost barely). This is not a deal breaker for me as I enjoy the simplicity of SW in the first place.
Are you referring to Pkgtool? AFAIK it is the MOST mature in being the oldest and wisest in being the most simple and effective while never putting the base system at risk with the possible exception of when manually doing a whole system upgrade and even then it is easy to troubleshoot and recover. If you're instead referring to SlackBuilds I hope you realize how simple and user configurable they are being only a script to build a specific package from source. It is worth noting it does not install that package and merely places it in /tmp and lets you decide whether or not to install or uninstall. Admin comes first instead of distro maintainers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxbawks View Post
I prefer building custom packages for SW. The alternative in Debian is a little more complicated. You firstly have to set up an entire debbuild configuration and it's much less straightforward to remember. However Debian does get you going very fast and is much better maintained.
Not only is building packages in Debian "a little more complicated" it is entirely controlled and outside the Admin's purvey, or at the very least it was mine. If you build a kernel package afaik there is no way to avoid it also building initrd and updating your bootloader (which can ignore or destroy any customization) just to mention a few. It is required to submit to The Debian Way.

As for being "better maintained" I think that hints at what I've been saying that auto-dependency resolution requires more maintenance where Slackware does not by virtue of it's base design. In Slackware maintenance is YOUR responsibility AND power. If it isn't properly maintained according to your standards then that is almost entirely on you and I like it that way.

ping Lysander666 - That would be any packages not "at least some packages" unless you choose to for whatever reason our little hearts desire Also when 13.37 hits EOL that will have zero effect on that box. Important security fixes are still possible as are individual package builds just like they used to be before SlackBuild and it isn't difficult to alter a slackbuild script, if needed, to fit 13.37 or any release. Even if I were to upgrade any hardware and needed a newer kernel that's easy. Sound card driver is provided by ALSA in the kernel and as for graphics I don't use a package. I just drop to runlevel 3 (not normal and again more complicated in most other distros) and use nvidia's own install script which is also not normal in other distros and usually specifically warned against, again, simply for the convenience of not building the kernel module against the new kernel.

I prefer owning my own system and relying as little as possible from assistance from others and certainly not actual intervention. This is only possible on a distro as Vanilla as Slackware. FWIW after my first distro, Mandrake, was trashed by a system upgrade I started asking around on IRC channels (yeah, it was almost 20 years ago) and paid special attention to the guys I respected most as to a better distro choice. Most said Slackware and to a few particularly adept Admin/Users I asked "Why?" and the response was universal - "Stuff just seems to build right on it" and that is still true.

Last edited by enorbet; 03-14-2018 at 12:24 AM.
 
Old 03-14-2018, 10:25 AM   #29
linuxbawks
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The Debian way is only a recommendation to do things "correctly" and in line with a common philosophy. You do have control over it however much you want. Nothing is out your control. In fact I showed Debian can be built totally from scratch from first principals just as my SW distro is. I have total control on everything from the kernel to the userspace in both distros.

The only real and critical differences between the two is that you have runtime packages and dependency resolution in one. However SW allows you to build custom packages more easily with a simple mod of the pkgfile. Sadly though it can still take a number of hours if not days to get a SW distro going properly. It's also possible to inadvertantly miss a few steps in a SW deployment thereby leaving problems and flaws open down the line. Why..? because the dependency resolution isn't complete in SW. It's a manual process.

SW is great as a niche product. To play and experiment with. That's really it.
If you're running any sort serious infrastructure then no. I'd definitely opt for Deb -- or indeed if you want a fit and forget distribution.
 
Old 03-14-2018, 02:36 PM   #30
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxbawks View Post
The Debian way is only a recommendation to do things "correctly" and in line with a common philosophy. You do have control over it however much you want. Nothing is out your control. In fact I showed Debian can be built totally from scratch from first principals just as my SW distro is. I have total control on everything from the kernel to the userspace in both distros.

The only real and critical differences between the two is that you have runtime packages and dependency resolution in one. However SW allows you to build custom packages more easily with a simple mod of the pkgfile. Sadly though it can still take a number of hours if not days to get a SW distro going properly. It's also possible to inadvertantly miss a few steps in a SW deployment thereby leaving problems and flaws open down the line. Why..? because the dependency resolution isn't complete in SW. It's a manual process.

SW is great as a niche product. To play and experiment with. That's really it.
If you're running any sort serious infrastructure then no. I'd definitely opt for Deb -- or indeed if you want a fit and forget distribution.
Troll exposed...

All dependencies are met with a full Slackware install. Most of the "holes" are not there since you have to manually start services, unlike having services automatically started just because you installed something and have not yet configured it hint Debian and others.

Regarding your last paragraph, I only laugh, for what else is there to do. Slackware can be used for anything. Just because "you" would choose another distro does not mean that Slackware cannot handle the same workload or more in the right hands. It simply means that Debian is better for "you".
 
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