I agree with many of your posts, Woodsman, but you really should be careful about speaking on behalf of others.

For example, the statement you made above. What about building from source without a build script? This is something I've done many times and will continue to do for software I need/want.

I, for one, certainly do not "learn to live without"... :)

*cough* I'm an accountant, and I build my own Slackware packages frequently. :D

It isn't that difficult to learn.

The link to instructions can be found using this google query.

I will look further. Thanks.

There is a difference between constructive criticism and blind fanboyism. I see nothing wrong with the former because inherent in that kind of public discourse is a desire to see and encourage improvement. Some people would call constructive criticism "tough love."

I struggle to like them. I don't like Vector --- too amateurish (ASCII art), their brand of offbeat humor for their installation messages does not tickle me, and they commit a "cardinal sin" with installing packages in /usr/local. I get the impression of a hobbyist distro, not a professional operating system. That might be what some people are looking for and good for them. Zenwalk is more professional and I like a few things they have done, especially with the setup scripts. Yet they are an Xfce and GTK shop. I don't like GTK and never have grown warm toward Xfce. They offer KDE as an add-on package but their in-house tools remain GTK. Absolute is a project developed from the heart but is intended for the home-grown types and hackers. Not much professional sparkle and no KDE except again as an add-on.

Sure would be nice. :) I'be happy to help test any robust tool that downloads and converts deb packages to tgz format!

Okay, you asked, therefore I'll share why my posts in this thread have focused on usability --- which you deem "critical of Slackware."

A few weeks ago I posted a question about using Slackware in a consulting business. I have since been working on a quasi-business plan in that area but in the form of a detailed how-to for my web site. Much in the same spirit as my short multimedia guide, this project focuses on building Slackware into a robust, full-featured, "family friendly" operating system. This approach is helping me visualize potential problems and challenges with customers. I see a market for installing and supporting Linux-based operating systems. Being comfortable with Slackware, I would prefer to use that system as my base. The idea is to use one operating system to improve familiarity and reduce costs.

I think Slackware could be used in such a business. Yet despite some sweat equity to build and create a customized Slackware DVD, there are challenges involved to build Slackware into the type of operating system many customers expect.

One area I already mentioned: package availability. Most people do not care about the underlying operating system. They care only for applications. Some customers won't understand or accept that a package does not exist because of the operating system I chose for them. They'll want me to restore them to Windows or install a different distro. At my cost. Because most of them are point-and-click users, they are not going to tolerate command line tools to obtain what packages might be available.

You mentioned another area --- hardware detection. I can't predict what hardware a customer might have. Installing a new operating system has to "just work." Video and monitor configuration is a concern. There are other areas I have no experience. Bluetooth for example, transferring files from an iPod or PDA, or file sharing and torrents (my ISP contract prevents that). How do I support such demands? The only approach is that most of the hardware "just works." That requires good hardware detection in the software, both during installation and thereafter.

A third area is "spit shine." Image is not everything but is important. I have had people watch my Slackware box boot and they recoil at the sight of stdout messages scrolling during the boot process. They expect a fancy graphic backdrop and a progress bar. A splash image for lilo or grub is an improvement, but most people expect sparkle and elegance everywhere. That is the reason I posted and asked about gfxboot. I mentioned I like what the Zenwalk folks have done with the setup scripts. They have merged cfdisk directly into the scripts and they have merged a graphic backdrop to provide the illusion of a "graphical installation." I would like to see these straightforward improvements merged upstream in Slackware, yet even that effort falls short within the context of this discussion. Most users are not computer people. A tool like cfdisk will paralyze most of them. Something graphical like gparted might survive their panic. With an installed stock Slackware the customer sees a blinking cursor. If they figure out how to log in from the command line they then are told they have mail but no instructions how to read that mail. I boot into run level 3 almost all the time. That is fine and dandy for folks like you and me, but not most people. Customers want to buy professionalism. They want the perception of quality. They want that "new car smell."

Is Slackware acceptable for an all-around desktop system for customers in such a business? After a few weeks of research I wonder whether a person pursuing this idea should choose OpenSuse, Fedora, Mandriva, (K)Ubuntu, or SimplyMepis. Package selection is huge, automatic hardware detection is built in, and all provide a high degree of "spit shine."

Which returns to the poster who started this latest series of discussions. The poster claimed that Slackware is incomplete. After months of sweat equity I have massaged Slackware into the type of box I want. I had to download build scripts and sources for more than 120 packages to provide my own idea of a "complete" Slackware. After almost 30 years of using a computer I've been around too many people who use computers as non-geeks and non-gurus. They simply do not care about what is "under the hood." They care only about applications. I might be able to learn how to create a completely graphical boot screen to provide "spit shine," but there is no "YAST" or system "control center" in Slackware. I might be able to tap dance real hard when I run into hardware detection problems. Yet people buy their own hardware and as I mentioned previously about a brother and his digital camera, people expect things to "just work." Many people are unlikely to settle for Slackware with the lack of significant package selection support. Yes, I could bill customers for the service of building and installing packages, but not for long when customers learn they can download those packages for free if only they had a different operating system installed. Windows has conditioned many people that they can download any EXE and "double-click" to install a package. They can accept and learn likewise with a new operating system, but they expect the process to be point-and-click easy and they expect to find packages easily.

I'm not saying that Slackware is a bad choice for me --- for my personal use, or for anybody regularly participating in this forum. Perhaps the pragmatic business solution is to choose a more full-featured distro for customers while using Slackware personally. Regardless, all I am saying is that the poster who started this recent series of discussions had a few points of merit to consider.

ErV, thanks for your advice about playing musical instruments, but I'm sorry --- that is an elitist response.

Which is why I wrote that the poster who started this recent flurry had some valid points. I never wrote I agreed in entirety, nor did I embrace his bitterness or cynicism. I agreed only partially and I explained where. As I wrote, there is a difference between constructive criticism and blind fanboyism. Constructive criticism hopes to encourage improvement.

And mine!

You are correct. I should have written that I live without.

I don't like that approach because I like package management. I hated that aspect about Windows where software got installed and there was almost no way to manage or control the process, especially the registry.

Of course, there is Gilbert's sr2pkg and I should learn more about that tool. Therefore I'll back off from that original claim.

Off topic: Speaking of which, are you the same rkelson who once upon a time had a gfxboot package for Slackware? If so, where is that build script? :)

After you learned to build packages you then had a computer background, at least with respect to building packages. :) I never raised the issue of aptitude or ability. I raised the issue of time and priorities. I'm in a similar boat. I am a technical writer and I know more about computers than some IT people. Yet the nitty gritty details of compiling software is not one of those areas. I have built many packages using build scripts. I do understand part of the process, but not in great detail. But that discussion does not negate the fact that pre-built package selection for Slackware is not as plentiful as other distros. Nor does the discussion negate the fact that many people want to use a computer, not build one. They want to download and install packages, not build them. That was my point with my statements.

Hey, I'm back. I am not excited about replying because some of the comments are really nasty and I should probably just retire from the topic because Woodsman is now supporting pretty much the same views I was trying, except a lot better than me, but I am not one who drops bombs and runs away.

That argument is too old and ineffective.

Because I can't, because I am not qualified, or maybe because I simply don't want to. Because I just want to turn on the computer and just use it and, supposing I can write code, focus my energy on something else, not something that other distros have ready.

Just because I can't or don't want to do it better doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.


"Work is still ongoing" sounds like a euphemism to me. Like calling underdeveloped countries "developing countries". Aren't ALL countries developing? I've never seen the USA be referenced as a "developing country". Does it mean it is not developing anymore? Is it stagnant? Come on. "Work is still ongoing" = different words for "incomplete".


I think I agree with that wholeheartedly now. Until a short time ago, I wouldn't think like that. Now I do. I got tired of doing something the computer should be doing for me.


Welcome to the concept of forums: discussing ideas. That's all. Someone mentioned a review. Many peers hastened to explain why they disagree with the review. I felt like explaining why I agree. If you only welcome ideas that you agree with, you have some kind of tunneled vision that could potentially invalidate everything you say. Your whole stance makes all your views unreliable.

I find an awful lot of information in Google, often in discussions that took place almost a decade ago (older is possible, just not common in my experience). Therefore I often write with the goal of exposing my ideas, impressions and experience to anyone who might run into this discussion later. That doesn't really apply in this case since all the criticism I offered will be no longer relevant after the issues have been fixed, but my point is: this is a forum, it's about sharing impressions, you can't tell me to write only when I'm about to say something you're willing to agree with.


Sure. Typical Linux zealot reaction: "I don't agree with you, therefore you're obviously a troll." Whatever.


None of that has ever been my motivation. I mentioned it because it is a VERY common misconception. I used Slackware for more than three years and I saw people with those notions many, many times. The reviewer (or "ranter" if you prefer) mentions it. He didn't just make it up, I have seen that myself countless times on sites and #slackware channels.


Stop telling other people how *I* feel. You don't know!


THAT is a truly good point.


Dude, get a life.


Your attitude is creepy. Instead of sticking solely to my opinions for whatever they're worth, you ran a check on my records after some "flaws" in my character that would, in your twisted mind, automatically invalidate whatever point I was trying to make that you didn't like. You say you don't like to judge, but couldn't resist going after my past comments PLUS mentioning it in this thread. You should be in politics.


You really have a very high opinion of yourself, don't you hitest? So you've had "a few interactions with me in the past" and that automatically makes me look bad? What are you, a sacred cow? Yes, everyone with absolutely nothing else to do until death finally comes along is invited to take a look at our past interactions. I am indeed blunt and stubborn but always trying to make a point, while you are often derisive and downright rude. Congratulations on your brilliant personality.


Too cynical, but fairly close. After such remark, a constructive attitude would be to wonder why suddenly Slackware is no longer "perfect" for me (or anyone else). Or, alternatively, how I slowly got to the conclusion that maybe it never was in the first place. What caused the changed? But only if someone wants to consider possible weaknesses, improve Slackware and make it even better. If your goal is only to establish that Slackware is perfect and needs no improvement whatsoever, then by all means DO NOT regard my complaints. Just stop at the cynical remark and it will work really fine. Oh, you certainly know that already.


Very good comments, Woodsman. You are one constructive person. I wish I could write as well as you can and perhaps raise less hell. But let me say that your description does not accurately match my position. I am not angry. I am simply crawling from within some place I had been inhabiting for years to have a look-see at what the whole scenario is like now. Do the other distros still suck like they used to? No, they don't! I was maybe too ingenuous coming here to share my findings. Seriously: I HATED Ubuntu. I really did. I never liked Fedora or RedHat. Since I discovered Linux, I always preferred "the underlying design of Slackware" (as you very adequately described it). But I took a blindfold off my face, looked around and discovered that the other distros actually got better and are indeed sporting a much better finish than Slackware.

Also, someone in this thread mentioned "automatic dependency resolution hell". I know what that person means. I insisted on trying Debian for some time 5 or 6 years ago and suffered a lot with stupid problems in apt-get. So I shunned Debian for years. Here is my advice: TRY AGAIN. I've been running Kubuntu for a few days, installed A LOT of applications with apt-get and had no problem at all. Hey, it's about time they got their shit together. Maybe they did. And I do find it very convenient. No one is forced to agree on how important that particular feature is, but getting mad at me just for pointing something out is borderline irrational. That's what throws Woodsman a little bit off the mark about me: I had bonds with the distro, but never really had bonds with this group. These people are crazy!

If you (all) don't like my comments, fine. I don't blame you. I recognize I lack diplomacy. It seems that Woodsman shares most of my views and can explain them a lot better. I will just shut up now and read his posts. They are indeed more interesting.

Problem is that these things only work some of the time. Trying to use a package format/layout that was not designed for your distribution will eventually lead to a mess.

If the application was not built on the host OS you can expect the oft warned about "Dependency Hell" to be just around the corner... the devil really is in the details.

Yes it could but you need to do some work for it to happen. Slackware is not targeted at the demographic you are talking about and likely never will be... straying from the path as I mentioned in my previous post.

And rightly so... that is your client base so you must cater to their needs or they will go elsewhere. You can expect to have to provide packages for them or at least a means for them to retrieve and install them.

A computer is not an appliance it is a very complicated machine. Unless you have complete control over the hardware you would be foolish to try and make Slackware into an "appliance OS" which seems to be what you are looking for.

I like many other Slackers (I expect) would prefer to see the boot messages... I hate stuff being hidden from me it's one of my biggest complaints with most commercial offerings.

Honestly I would say no, well not unless you are prepared to do a fair amount of customisation and be prepared to host a package repo along with the tools to make use of it.

I install Slackware on my personal Desktops/laptops and any server that I manage. I will also install it for someone that I know will be prepared to do a little learning and not "expect" everything to "Just work" without some tweaking.

I usually just install Ubuntu for those that want the "just works" experience but be warned.... not everything "Just Works" and as mentioned before, there is no such thing as "generic user".

I once spent around 8hrs (probably more) installing Ubuntu on a Laptop for my mother (she uses it on her desktop ok) but she was having problems burning a DVD once. I wasn't around so her well meaning son-in-law re-installed Vista on it for her. She then complained to me because none of her games worked any more.

From personal experience if you want to use Slackware in a commercial sense you are much better off providing purpose-built servers to businesses. FTP, mail, filtering, file serving etc. The chance of meeting the clients expectations in this area are much higher.

IMHO trying to make a living from supplying "Linux to the masses" you are entering a world of pain and suffering...

No idea what exactly you mean by elitist, but I don't think I'm one of them. I have problems that are important to me and problems that aren't. I have no problems with making packages, since I was able to learn how to create them. Even programming experience had little to do with that, because "gnu make" takes serious amount if time to get used to after windows programming, and autoconf tools that are involved into process still remain pretty cryptic. And I don't have "computer education", since as I said, I spent much more time getting musical education than learning computers, and most things I know about computers (98%) I learned myself. So I don't see why other people can possibly be unable to learn same thing about packages. And as I said, process is really dumb and straightforward. No one asks you to understand how it works, you can simply repeat steps without full understanding.
Honestly I'm surprised you had problems with making packages, because you don't look like that type.

I wrote a step-by-step instruction for creating package some time ago. This is a very short version of howto I learned that stuff from. So what is the part there you don't understand?

Writing rants is not discussing ideas.

I suggest to re-read my post more carefully and notice parts about "my experience" and "this might be". This is just an observation. If you can't accept it - it is your problem.

P.S. It looks like this thread is going to be closed soon.

To me lucmove seems to be logical and consistent in his views (based on *his* axioms which we need not share), so I wouldn't call it trolling. As I've said earlier somewhere in this thread, Slackware sticks to a philosophy and it really shows all over the distribution, therefore it's likely to be quite repulsive to people who don't completely agree with it. In other words, (from my point of view) Slackware isn't trying to be an all-embracing distribution, the strong adherence to its simplistic philosophy makes it a "love it or leave it" type thing (which is good* for those who love :D).





* Before someone tries to bash me: Of course I don't mean to praise this as a political view here, the context is users' choices in the free software world. Remember that concepts change their meanings in different contexts.

Yes, that's me. :) I have to admit, though, that I never actually used the gfxboot package myself. It was provided for use as a tool, secondary to my main purpose with the exercise - which was to have an animated LILO boot menu screen.

Anyhow, this stuff was done in 2001. Back then, SlackBuilds.org didn't exist and people shared packages rather than build scripts. If scripts were popular back then, I'm sure I would have provided one. These days, I have neither the time nor the inclination to prepare one.

I have long since stopped using the Animated LILO package myself, because sometime around mid-2004 I configured my computer to boot straight into Slackware without prompting me. This is something that I've continued to do since then.
Fair enough. Personally, I don't think anyone but a programmer can completely understand every detail of compiling software. In the README file that comes with source code, they'll generally detail any requirements outside the standard "./configure && make && make install" necessary to compile the particular software.

From there, the creation of Slackware packages is little more than putting everything into a directory structure and running the "makepkg" script.

I finally got round to installing 12.2 today on one of my machines. No surprise that it works as it should!

Question though: where's the udevinfo program? I've just become root and get "command not found". I did an updatedb and then a locate, but nothing. Before you ask, yes, I have the udev package installed. I've just downloaded the udev package again and udevinfo isn't in there. Odd :/.

Apparently you are back for the moment. I just feel that you are indeed trolling now that you found some support that you will extend the argument. I do think open debate is good and that it will aid everyone. Sometimes the negative can be turned around to improve something. As long as the argument is valid. You already tag everything as 'nasty' if it not aligned with your thought (at least how we perceive it from your post(s)).
I can understand Woodman's points as to his past history and involvement here on LQ. That's one of the reason's I did do a read on your history to get a better understanding for your point of view and possibly a better understanding of where you were coming from.

Yes, you do drop bombs! Some valid points that as users we should at least look at to see how we as helpers here on LQ can improve our endeavors.

Valid? Your perspective is not really as fair as you want us to see. Read your own history!

Everything has room for improvement, to general a view so be specific if you indeed want to be constructive. Just because the OS, application or whatever doesn't align with your mode of abilities doesn't mean it is at fault.

Slackware is always going to be "Work is still ongoing" so that point is moot. The *buntus are always ever evolving, you must wait to get that tweak or package because someone is working on it and the repository doesn't have what you want so you as a *buntu user must either wait or attempt to tweak then get yourself into a deeper hole. Stability anyone?

Yes, forums are alive and helping to improve things for the participants. Points of view are very healthy if presented in a manner that doesn't harm. Who can say they are placing information in the manner that will aid everyone, not me. I'm far from perfect but I do believe in helping whenever I feel that I can. I think we here on the Slackware forum are helpful to most, the mods do keep a pretty good hold on the way things are handled. I know that I don't have "you have some kind of tunneled vision that could potentially invalidate everything you say. Your whole stance makes all your views unreliable" as you state generally. You should use that 'mirror thing".

Why just google? Search here on LQ for your post history and learn from yourself. The writing style and form does show a trend.


Who's biased? You can paint lines in the sand but I can't?

Yes, it has! Your not being honest here, again read your LQ history. Open your eyes, pick any OS or whatever and you will find zealots. People will work with things that they are comfortable using. OS, Ford vs Chevy or anything that we humans utilize in our everyday existence can be the subject of desire. We all have a tendency to choose what we use as the best within our lives.

Speak too us then. All we have is what you present too us. That's why I have read your post(S).

I do have a life! I enjoy what I do and what I have done. Who's judging who now? Resistance had nothing to do with my looking at your post history. I didn't find the need to waste my time to google your history since the LQ post(s) present enough information to form a opinion.

I'm not going to defend 'hitest' that's his position. I have had interaction with 'hitest' in the past and my opinion is that fairness was the general gist of the post(s). You make yourself look bad enough, no need for anyone else to do that. You are more than just "blunt and stubborn", your weakening your points with every word by the attacks that you initiate.

This rant, supports what I have previously stated. Sure, improvements are necessary and 'work in progress' for Slackware but no line in the sand.

You found some support but still tear it down. You seem angry. If you need to 'crawl' then we do see a position now. :)

Now you are sharing feelings, come on man! Then off to your new found feelings.

Irrational? Now that's the word that has been jumping out at me.
Enough said!

I don't like the manner in which you posted the comments but as I stated earlier your post history speaks for itself. Now, maybe I am judging but from what I have read here within this thread I find you guilty. :)

Remember that you said "I will just shut up now and read his posts. They are indeed more interesting". Let us see how long that will last.

Why? Because there is an intelligent discussion being carried on about the pros and cons of Slackware?

First, I've been using Slackware, off and on, since 1995, and have also used various other Linux distributions, the most recent, other than Slackware 12, being Kubuntu amd_64.

Many of you take a almost religious view of your use of Slackware and there are users of other Linux distributions (and even some winblows users) with similar attitudes. Say anything they do not want to hear, true or not, about their favorite flavor of Linux, and they rant and rave that the person who made such blasphemous statements is a "anti-nameofdistributionhere-ic." Some of you then call the original poster a "troll" or you suggest he should leave and "not let the door hit him on the a** on his way out," or maybe he just doesn't have "what it takes to be one of 'us'", etc., etc., etc.

Not long ago someone complained of the manner in which he was treated by some of the forum members and immediately was told that it 'Just isn't so.' Sorry, folks, he was right, and the reaction and subsequent posts in this thread prove he was correct.

About a year ago I went through what the original poster is going through now and he does have many valid points. It is a shame many of you are obviously so blinded by your "religious zeal" you cannot intelligently contribute to the conversation.

Woodman is by far one of the best participants in this forum as he has the ability to see both side of a question and addresses them appropriately.

Many of you provide a great resource here in your willingness to help those who don't understand Slackware as well as yourself, but, unfortunately, there are just as many who desperately need to broaden their viewpoint, realize Slackware is not perfect, and write responses that address the question asked, or concerns raised, and not slam the original poster because he does not agree with your point of view.

There's now a single binary called udevadm -- for the equivalent of what used to be udevinfo, you'd run "udevadm info"

Looks like flamewar to me.
Explanation (opinion):
"I don't like it" post == rant. Leads to flamewar, thread closure.
emotions == rant. Leads to flamewar, thread closure.
"This can be improved here, here and there using, this and that" post == intelligent discussion. Leads to -> improvement (if accepted), or nothin (if not accepted)
lucmove post falls into "I don't like it" + "emotions" category, to my opinion. He lists things he don't like and isn't proposing what to change. With emotions and without proposition it is useless.

I know my question was clear. You didn't answer it. Did you read too fast and miss it?

And that's why Pat sells bundles with the DVD and the Slack Book!

http://www.slackbook.org/html/help.html#HELP-SYSTEM-MAN
http://www.slackbook.org/html/instal...titioning.html

Actually, cfdisk is no more difficult than the (also text-based) disk partioner you get when you install Windows. No-one has trouble figuring that partioner out.

http://www.slackbook.org/html/shell.html#AEN2678

http://www.slackbook.org/html/basic-...nds-email.html

"If you don't read the instructions then you won't be able to use it" isn't a fair criticism of anything, is it? If the Slack Book isn't enough for someone to start with, then yes that person should choose another distribution.