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Old 08-28-2018, 01:04 PM   #1966
Alien Bob
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What happened to Slackware 14.2 users who actually understand their system and are able to upgrade any software they need by compiling from source? Or even better, from the SlackBuild script provided in the Slackware-current source tree. Appeltje Eitje.

Service Packs are only a stop-gap for "people with no internet access", and what happens after the next public security update? Those people will have to access the Internet to get those patches. And while they are disconnected from said Internet, there should not be any chance of getting hacked anyway.

Too many people in this forum somehow have donned a corporate hat and suddenly can not think any longer of Slackware as a tool for smart people.
 
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:34 PM   #1967
bassmadrigal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
What happened to Slackware 14.2 users who actually understand their system and are able to upgrade any software they need by compiling from source? Or even better, from the SlackBuild script provided in the Slackware-current source tree. Appeltje Eitje.

Service Packs are only a stop-gap for "people with no internet access", and what happens after the next public security update? Those people will have to access the Internet to get those patches. And while they are disconnected from said Internet, there should not be any chance of getting hacked anyway.

Too many people in this forum somehow have donned a corporate hat and suddenly can not think any longer of Slackware as a tool for smart people.
I have no problems with this and I was able to successfully install 14.2 onto my NVMe drive without having instructions available at the time (although, the installer and eliloconfig had already been updated in -current, so I was able to use those).

I don't see much benefit of including all the patches onto a newer disc other than saving some downloading of patches after installation. And I've certainly pulled my share of SlackBuilds from -current to upgrade various pieces of software (or even beyond the versions included in -current). And with 55020's dusk builds available, it's never been easier to upgrade a kernel.

But, IMO, lack of NVMe support in the installer is quite the barrier for some and the kernel included on the disk might not work with the latest hardware (can't remember if I've seen issues with this on the forum, but it is still possible). Sure, maybe Pat's not interested in people who can't work that out, but I can't answer that for him. I was just providing some reasons on why it might be beneficial for a release including an updated installer and better support for modern hardware. I can't even say that I'd prefer having an SP1 or similar, just that I do see some benefits of offering it.
 
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Old 08-28-2018, 02:19 PM   #1968
Darth Vader
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
What happened to Slackware 14.2 users who actually understand their system and are able to upgrade any software they need by compiling from source? Or even better, from the SlackBuild script provided in the Slackware-current source tree. Appeltje Eitje.
I do not think that a Service Pack will change something major for the people who are able to upgrade any software they need, compared with the usage of stock release with the security patches applied.

Because that Service Pack will contains integrated those security patches and a more modern LTS kernel with its fleet of associated packages, e.g. e2fsprogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Service Packs are only a stop-gap for "people with no internet access", and what happens after the next public security update? Those people will have to access the Internet to get those patches. And while they are disconnected from said Internet, there should not be any chance of getting hacked anyway.
I do not think that the Service Packs are only for those from North Korea (which I suggested as example)

It is a way of having a modernized and security enhanced Slackware release. And a way to do (small) releases often, then keeping the pace with the computers world changes.

Being here, I believe that Patrick does not need to continue to maintain both of the previous/major release and its Service Packs. Because essentially they are security patches.

And after the next security update, the business will be as usual. After all, the Service Packs will contains the already applied security updates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Too many people in this forum somehow have donned a corporate hat and suddenly can not think any longer of Slackware as a tool for smart people.
Let's do not antagonize the rookies or those who have no time to do Slack-fu with the "smart people"

And I do not think there's something like a "corporate hat", but just a way to have updated releases often.
 
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Old 08-28-2018, 03:35 PM   #1969
bamunds
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Ok, I'll stick with your argument of NVMe being universally available in the EU. Unfortunately at this time PV doesn't include support in "stable" for NVMe, per Didier. That would mean, if the Service Pack included drivers and a modified installation process for NVMe, that the Service Pack is a derivative of 'stable" and more work for PV to figure out how to integrate it into the DVD release. Sounds like a point release of 'stable'. Wouldn't you agree?
 
Old 08-28-2018, 04:17 PM   #1970
jostber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivandi View Post
With the attached patch I propose some modifications to the install options of Slackware installer:
  • full - Install everything except KDEI. No questions, no series selection.
  • minimal - Install a minimal system without prompting. Internally it generates tagfiles in /tag/minimal using a minimal.template in /usr/lib/setup and then switches to tagpath mode.
  • server - Works the same way as minimal and installs about 2G of software. Apache PHP mariadb samba postfix dovecot ...
  • series - Prompts the user to select series and then installs everything in selected series.
  • menu - First prompts the user to select series an then displays individual package selection menu for selected series.
  • custom - No change.
  • tagpath - No change.
  • help - WIP

You can try the netinstall.iso.


Cheers
It could be useful to have an option for "Small" installation as well which installs just one of every application (most preferrably lightweight or console) and remove all KDE games(and other games), other not needed KDE applications to make the install lean and efficient for those who need/want this.
 
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Old 08-28-2018, 04:35 PM   #1971
ivandi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jostber View Post
It could be useful to have an option for "Small" installation as well which installs just one of every application (most preferrably lightweight or console) and remove all KDE games(and other games), other not needed KDE applications to make the install lean and efficient for those who need/want this.
Here you have the tools to create any install option you want.


Cheers
 
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Old 08-28-2018, 05:05 PM   #1972
Didier Spaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamunds View Post
Ok, I'll stick with your argument of NVMe being universally available in the EU. Unfortunately at this time PV doesn't include support in "stable" for NVMe, per Didier. That would mean, if the Service Pack included drivers and a modified installation process for NVMe, that the Service Pack is a derivative of 'stable" and more work for PV to figure out how to integrate it into the DVD release. Sounds like a point release of 'stable'. Wouldn't you agree?
Again, I am not Darth but... In the case of NVMe the only needed change are these patches[1], applied to Slackware-current which are transparent for the user and need no change in the kernel's configuration or firmware.

Handling eMMC IIRC would need some changes in the kernel's configuration in addition.

But let's not a tree hide the forest, as we say here: any specific case should be handled specifically.

If you agree let's agree to disagree, not to encumber this thread anymore with our respective arguments.

[1]As an aside I have since found a simpler and hopefully more general logic to detect EFI partitions on any kind of device.
 
Old 08-28-2018, 05:46 PM   #1973
volkerdi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Didier Spaier View Post
[1]As an aside I have since found a simpler and hopefully more general logic to detect EFI partitions on any kind of device.
While I do plan to make some use of the UUID detection method, I found that many of the fdisk programs on Linux don't properly create the standardized UUID for an EFI System Partition. In particular, gdisk (which is recommended in README_UEFI) does not, while fdisk and cfdisk do follow the standard.
 
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:08 PM   #1974
Alien Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
Let's do not antagonize the rookies or those who have no time to do Slack-fu with the "smart people"
I am sorry, but where do these uninformed rookies come from? Are they the people who jumped ship when their hand-holding distro adopted systemd?
And I have no patience for people "who have no time" to learn Slackware properly. For them, there probably are better distros than Slackware.

Quote:
And I do not think there's something like a "corporate hat", but just a way to have updated releases often.
Last time I looked, Slackware "is ready when it's ready". There was no newspost that I know of, stating that Slackware now follows corporate strategies. But perhaps, I missed the memo.
 
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:19 PM   #1975
shastah
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My $0.02 regarding the .new file handling: yes, it is a burden (especially if you have to do it on more than one machine), but I like knowing that $prog-X.Y+1 has now new "Foo", "Bar" and "Baz" configuration options in the default config.

What I don't like however, is to spend my time reviewing .new files where the only change is because /usr/doc/prog-X.Y is now /usr/doc/prog-X.Y+1 (hi, /etc/mutt/Muttrc). It would be really cool if programs like this could use /usr/doc/prog symlinked to current /usr/doc/prog-X.Y and then config file would refer to /usr/doc/prog - the same way n/postfix does it now.
 
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:25 PM   #1976
shastah
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The new (2.90) sysvinit might be looking up to systemd and trying to be smarter than the admin... Turns out it automatically tries to spawn /sbin/agetty if it finds "console=..." in /proc/cmdline - even when there's no mention of gettys in /etc/inittab.

This creates unnecessary noise in environments like LXC containers for example. /proc/cmdline inside container is exactly like on the host, with (in my case it might be) "console=ttyS0 console=tty2" or similar. So on each such container, init endlessly spawns /sbin/agetty, they don't have a device to stick to so they exit, so init respawns them, then stops for 5 minutes, then starts again... eh

Oh, did I mention that /sbin/agetty - both path and options - are hardcoded in src/init.c?
 
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:15 PM   #1977
montagdude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montagdude View Post
I'm actually considering making this modification to my system if Patrick doesn't accept it. All that will be needed in addition to what I already posted in #1906 is to modify slackpkg to automatically replace the config() function in any doinst.sh files before installing.
In case anyone wants their pkgtools to work this way for handling .new files, I ended up implementing it as a mod to installpkg, not slackpkg as I originally was thinking. In addition to the patch I posted before, I also added some code in installpkg that overwrites the existing config() function in any doinst.sh files. The patched versions are available here:

https://github.com/montagdude/SlackB...ystem/pkgtools

The easiest way to get it would be to just clone the whole repository and then go to SlackBuilds/system/pkgtools and run pkgtools.SlackBuild. The first time you upgrade or reinstall a package with this new set of pkgtools, it will revert to the old behavior, because there will be no .ref file yet. Subsequently, the modified behavior will be used.

Edit: I have been using it without any issues for a few days, but of course there are no guarantees, so don't blame me if it messes something up.

Edit 2: This is based on pkgtools for 14.2. I haven't checked if the code has changed for -current, but I'm sure this mod would be equally easy to implement either way.

Last edited by montagdude; 08-28-2018 at 09:28 PM.
 
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Old 08-29-2018, 04:07 AM   #1978
mina86
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The whole discussion about service packs is just beating around the bush of the real elephant in the room: Slackware 14.2 has been released two years ago. I have always been on -current and despite never following any of the instructions regarding updating packages (e.g. about doing it in single user mode or which packages should be updated first) I have never had any problems with it. I’m seriously baffled why a new release cannot be ‘trivially’ cut from -current every six months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
I am sorry, but where do these uninformed rookies come from? Are they the people who jumped ship when their hand-holding distro adopted systemd?
Perhaps from Windows or Mac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
And I have no patience for people "who have no time" to learn Slackware properly.
This is just elitism. No, Eric, using Slackware does not make you smarter than people who use other distributions. If a user cannot install Slackware from the latest stable release ISO because that release does not support their hardware, that’s not failure of the user; that’s a failure of Slackware.
 
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Old 08-29-2018, 04:35 AM   #1979
Didier Spaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mina86 View Post
I’m seriously baffled why a new release cannot be ‘trivially’ cut from -current every six months.
Well if you mean providing an ISO as a snapshot of the -current tree, AlienBob already provides it daily or so, for instance here. But not every new Slackware user wants to run -current, and this cut won't provide a "ready as stable" state until the next stable release.

Last edited by Didier Spaier; 08-29-2018 at 08:20 AM. Reason: Duplicate word removed.
 
Old 08-29-2018, 08:18 AM   #1980
montagdude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mina86 View Post
The whole discussion about service packs is just beating around the bush of the real elephant in the room: Slackware 14.2 has been released two years ago. I have always been on -current and despite never following any of the instructions regarding updating packages (e.g. about doing it in single user mode or which packages should be updated first) I have never had any problems with it. I’m seriously baffled why a new release cannot be ‘trivially’ cut from -current every six months.
Because the whole development thrust of -current is to create a new stable release that is well-tested and as free from errors as possible. It is not a rolling release model where a new "stable" release can be "trivially" cut at any time.
 
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