You're ignoring the fact that there are many technically sound arguments against the adoption of systemd, and that these form the basis for the decision to not include it.

3 members found this post helpful.

I was referring to the equality argument by an other user, but feel free to ignore and to continue as usual, start a new topic out of nothing and out of context, but please without to insinuate something I did not say, like for example the implementation of systemd for Slackware.
Thanks.

There are two beams in your eye now.

3 members found this post helpful.

That is not a simple truth. Just because something is successful doesn't mean it isn't bad. And that "bad" can certainly be subjective. Windows is quite "successful", both consumer and commercial versions, but many Linux users consider Windows "bad" and prefer to not use it when possible. Even if we forget that LP was the driving force behind several projects, those projects have made many ripples in the Linux world. While some users think these projects are the fix to all our problems, others think it is tearing Linux apart, then the rest of the users lie somewhere in between.

I think Internet Explorer is a "bad" product, even their newer versions (I haven't used Edge enough to provide a strong opinion, but from what I have used, I'm not impressed). But Internet Explorer is still highly successful, especially in the workplace. I am forced to use it on a government computer, because some IT guy decided that it should be the only fully functional browser on my computer (Chrome is installed, but they disabled javascript, which means it's useless on a lot of sites).

Again, use shouldn't dictate whether something is good or bad. It might be a "necessary evil" (not that I think pulseaudio is evil, I'm actually happy that it was included in Slackware as it solved a lot of problems with alsa and multiple outputs). Just because people use phones that are highly proprietary, running closed off firmware that could provide backdoors to those 3-letter agencies, doesn't mean that they are good. Just because people are running graphics cards with binary firmware, doesn't mean it is good. It might just mean there are no better options.

This I totally agree with. Slackware has never professed to be a safe-haven from all things Pottering (and the addition of pulseaudio should indicate just that). If it ends up being required in the future, or has significant benefits by adding it, Pat will likely do it. The anti-Pottering users might be better off with distros that are actively against his various projects, not ones that have just avoided it thus far.

Yes, Lennart might be a vocal person that rubs many the wrong way. Yes, his software might be invasive and/or disruptive (to our previous way of thinking). But, it might be the best option out there at some point for Slackware (but as above, the "best" doesn't necessarily mean it is good, just that there are no better options), and it has already become the best option for many distros. As said above, it is all subjective.

6 members found this post helpful.

Do we ever get tired of this ?

Me neither.
Not here (but disabling Dee will be a task far beyond my skills)

1 members found this post helpful.

Theo de Raadt can be direct and abrasive, but as far as I know, not to this extent:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495

The main difference is that if you turn up on e.g. openbsd-misc spouting off about some supposed deficiency/lack of functionality, or not doing things the same as whateverBSD or whatever Linux you will probably get short shrift from de Raadt.

What doesn't happen, to my knowledge, is a systematic culture of 'beasting', ridiculing and humiliating team members / those committing code.

No real argument from me there, but I think the whole goal and direction of systemd is why it has so many opponents. It's a reinvention, a revolution (in their eyes), and in the opinion of it's developer, a unification. So when bug reports come in which don't fit the "grand scheme", they are of course dismissed. I believe he's on a misguided mission to break everything and fix it, rather than fix what's broken. Then whatever remains broken is simply not compatible with the "new way" and can be dismissed as "obsolete". I don't hold Poettering personally responsible, but if someone needed to be blamed, it would be his employers at Red Hat. But that's just my opinion.

1 members found this post helpful.

Who hasn't said that about their co-workers (email might have been a poor choice for medium here...)
Though in defence of babies, they have well documented mobility problems.

Nope. It is a never ending well of....something.

A fair comparison I could make Cynwulf:

When I used to use 3dfx based hardware back when I used Windows 2000 primarily, around 1999-2001, we had this user on the x3dfx forums at yuku.com (then ezboard.com) named ElvIsAlive. He was a knowledgeable person when dealing with tinkering with settings on video card .inf files to maximize their abilities, but he often got carried away introducing overclocking matrices into the files we would all hack on to, some of which got circulated and people would end up with fried or crippled hardware because the hacked files often would burn out the GPUs, yet ElvIsAlive kept saying, this is better, and it will fix everything. In the end to shut him up, he got banned from the forums multiple times, ending up in an IP range ban, and sites than hosted setting hacks took down many of his contributions because they were deemed hazardous.

Poettering reminds me a lot of ElvIsAlive in the mentality department. He knows a lot, wants to change things, but doesn't realize that what he's doing is hurting people, but there's no clear way to tell him stop or look at what you're doing without "You're just anti-change! My way is better! Stop telling me I'm wrong!" being the continued rhetoric. I think if Poettering would focus on fixing issues and squashing problems rather than sweeping them under the rug like Hillary Clinton deleting emails, systemd might be more widely accepted and respected. It's a very sound project because it wants to do what launchd and SMF do for other big name UNIX systems like Apple's OS-X and Oracle's Solaris by reducing the fail rate of services in execution and launch processes in a faster methodology while maintaining user seats and sessions with a failproof logging system to monitor issues and give accurate readouts, but the problem is, it does these things, but not reliably on a consistent basis and it's doing it within the most vulnerable failpoint of the system process tree, PID-1.

@ReaperX7, please leave the political analogies out of our discussions. I happen to agree with your analogy, but that stuff is everywhere else on the net and I view LQ as a place to get away from it.

omg ReaperX7, once again you are not able to distinguish between Lennart, the projects he started in his spare time (including systemd), and the companies and Linux distributions that have included the solutions he initialized.
So he harmed nobody, if so, than distribution maintainers did, and obviously the advantages of he solutions outnumber the disadvantages. see pulse in Slackware.
Don't you self think that your aversion against a single person becomes a little bit, let's say, strange?

All's fair Richard.

Still when a nail sticks up, best to use the ol' 100 lb sledge as needed. xD

Anyways, track records have more than proven how this will play out a4z. Pulse is one project, but it's only required for bluetooth usage. It's only so useful as what it's used for, nothing more and nothing else. Otherwise it's just a mediocre solution to a problem that affects a small percentage of users.

Bit late but this just won't do.

No matter what the cause, you are to treat each other with respect.
Do not resort to personal insults or name calling again.

2 members found this post helpful.

I just saw that LP coauthored the XDG Base Directory Specification.

Warning: before some folk takes argument of this fact to request that all software compliant to this specification be removed from Slackware, be aware: that would mean removing pretty much all windows managers and desktops

1 members found this post helpful.