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Old 10-08-2019, 01:15 AM   #31
astrogeek
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For those offering help such as this offer to rework the Slackware website, and then feeling rejected when Pat does not join the discussion, please consider...

If Pat responded with "No" to every unsolicited offer of help with some Slackware item, then he would be engaged in unending exchanges asking for his reasons for rejecting the offer, many attempting to change the "No" to "Yes". Just think of the threads discussing how ungrateful Pat has been to all those people trying to help!

If he responded with something like, "Give it a shot and show me what you produce, than I'll decide", he will have authorized that work be done on his behalf and must again remain engaged in unending exchanges aimed at winning his approval. An ultimate "No" would never be acceptable to someone who put in good faith effort based on Pat's conditional approval. Imagine the threads, "I put in six month's work on Pat's approval, then he said No"!

If he responded with "Yes" then he has turned over that aspect of Slackware to someone else and there is never any going back from that point!

So in my judgment Pat has no other safe course than to remain mostly unresponsive to unsolicited offers for help.

We know Pat reads all the threads here at LQ, so make your sincere offers knowing he will see them. Who knows what might catch his interest at any given time. But realize also that if he does not respond, it is not an insult or lack of gratitude... it is his reply, accept it graciously with an implied Thank you.

Last edited by astrogeek; 10-08-2019 at 01:19 AM. Reason: tpoy
 
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:34 AM   #32
zeebra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassmadrigal View Post
I don't think it was intended to say that slackware.com needs to be more modern. I imagine there's a few out there that would like it, but to me, the "outdated" is based on the content, not the styling. The System Requirements page is an easy one to look at. 14.2 takes 8GB+ for a full install and 15.0 is expected to be even higher. Also, packages have been getting compiled with 586 extensions since 14.2's development, so it won't run on a 486 anymore. I think it was also determined that with the installer using the huge kernel, you need more than 64MB of RAM to boot (although, once installed and using an initrd, that requirement can be lowered). Also, Software Sets still includes GNOME and Root Disks still references /dev/hd* instead of /dev/sd*.

It's definitely not horrible, but there are some areas that seem like they haven't seen any updates for some time. I certainly don't blame Pat, because that's a lot to dig through every time a release is put out, and I'd rather him focus on Slackware directly, but it does provide incorrect information for the latest versions of Slackware.
Sure, I agree. Some information on the website could be updated.

I would think this is not always an easy job. THe page has alot of different info actually, and when something changes it's not normal to have an overview of the full page and automatically know what info to update. There is still a link to the Slackware store under "get slack" for example.

For me it's not a big thing, for some it might be an annoyance, I dunno. Perhaps he could need help with the website, but I think that would come best in the form of someone reliable who could say which info is out of date and needs updating, and then he could update that.
 
Old 10-08-2019, 03:23 AM   #33
captain_sensible
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@poetgrant are you talking bootstrap 12 grid ?
 
Old 10-08-2019, 03:49 AM   #34
franzen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poetgrant View Post
I got pretty far into it, but there is a ton of stuff on Slackware.com.
As a copy/klon was rejected some time ago, it may make sense to not make a copy again, but just put on
-what may stay static/timeless
-what will be maintained -> Changelog

Last edited by franzen; 10-08-2019 at 05:20 AM. Reason: typo
 
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:35 AM   #35
poetgrant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_sensible View Post
@poetgrant are you talking bootstrap 12 grid ?
No, it isn't bootstrap.

https://www.w3schools.com/css/css_grid.asp

I started learning it via cloning the Slackware site and will soon be converting my own sore to it soon.

CSS Tricks says it is a built-in function of CSS 3.

Last edited by poetgrant; 10-08-2019 at 09:40 AM. Reason: autocorrect
 
Old 10-08-2019, 09:39 AM   #36
poetgrant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew.46 View Post
I would be interested in having a look at your work...
I haven't worked on it on a couple of weeks because work has taken over my life recently, but when I get it functional, I'll upload it. I'm not a web dev by day or night, just in my spare time. I like html5 tags do that I can minimize my usage of div tags. I say, there simple the code the better.

My biggest issue in web design is that I would rather sacrifice style for the sake of simplicity of code, so many people have said that my websites are simplistic and won't because I almost never have div tags.
 
Old 10-08-2019, 09:47 AM   #37
poetgrant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franzen View Post
As a copy/klon was rejected some time ago, it may make sense to not make a copy again, but just put on
-what may stay static/timeless
-what will be maintained -> Changelog
I will say that I never actually intended for my website to be seen by anyone but myself. I was doing it to learn CSS Grid and Slackware seemed pretty simple in the design. However, I am not a coder and I'm always looking for a way to meaningfully contribute to my favorite project. If the Benevolent Dictator likes my design, I would give it all away for free without license or anything of course.

That said, I've never thought that he seemed to care much for updating his site, which is fine. But, if he's watching, I would gladly devote my time to the only kind of coding I really know.

My door would be completely static. The only thing that I think any dev would hate is that it is completely hand written and would possibly be annoying to maintain, though that is my favorite kind of site.... Hehehe
 
Old 10-08-2019, 12:58 PM   #38
captain_sensible
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clean, clear and minimalist approach , fine . probably going off topic for some. Latex2html is back on slackbuilds by the way for those that prefer working on basis of content first, layout 2nd
 
Old 10-08-2019, 02:13 PM   #39
abga
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You good people, with all your good intentions, should maybe focus primarily on making the Slackware's maintainers life easier with a new design.
Basically you can reduce the maintainers to Patrick and as it was already pointed out on few occasions in this thread, he already mentioned (I remember one of his older posts) having a hard time updating the actual page.
I do some basic webdesign myself, mainly for simple web presence/presentation for the companies I work for part-time as freelancer and I don't employ any CMS systems, but update the pages on my own with the help of the tools I used for creating these pages. I wish I could provide a simpler&easier solution, but I'm not that experienced.

Again, please try focusing on Patrick first and don't be so "selfish" with what and how you would like to have in the new design ...
 
Old 10-08-2019, 02:33 PM   #40
captain_sensible
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well basically there are 2 approaches to updating pages one is to work on a page locally edit it and upload maybe via cpanel to replace the old version. Also you can directly edit a page via cpanel - but its not as relaxing as editing on local dev. This was Ok for me until somebody who couldn't code asked me to do a site but that because apparently i'm a pain and a control freak once i did the system i should stay out of it and leave it to them.

So basically they don't work via a cpanel but just via a web url . When i used the sysstem although i don't like wordpress i quite liked the ease of use. I coded so that static pages could be later edited and also that post held on a sqlite3 database could also be edited.

So as long as its a light CMS i can see the advantages. it could allow for instance for maybe "apprentices" to do the donkey work and then maybe senior or P.V himself to just butcher through the chaff and edit it to be succinct

Last edited by captain_sensible; 10-08-2019 at 02:41 PM.
 
Old 10-09-2019, 04:45 AM   #41
zeebra
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It says on Slackware.com it's "carefully crafted using vim", so any maintenance beyond that is probably not acceptable.
 
Old 10-09-2019, 05:44 AM   #42
andrew.46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poetgrant View Post
My biggest issue in web design is that I would rather sacrifice style for the sake of simplicity of code, so many people have said that my websites are simplistic and won't because I almost never have div tags.
Hmmm... I still use a 'wrapper' div (as my only div) having changed my 2 sites to HTML5 and I think a lot of people still do?
 
Old 10-09-2019, 03:35 PM   #43
abga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_sensible View Post
well basically there are 2 approaches to updating pages one is to work on a page locally edit it and upload maybe via cpanel to replace the old version. Also you can directly edit a page via cpanel - but its not as relaxing as editing on local dev. This was Ok for me until somebody who couldn't code asked me to do a site but that because apparently i'm a pain and a control freak once i did the system i should stay out of it and leave it to them.

So basically they don't work via a cpanel but just via a web url . When i used the sysstem although i don't like wordpress i quite liked the ease of use. I coded so that static pages could be later edited and also that post held on a sqlite3 database could also be edited.

So as long as its a light CMS i can see the advantages. it could allow for instance for maybe "apprentices" to do the donkey work and then maybe senior or P.V himself to just butcher through the chaff and edit it to be succinct
There are a few sections of the actual page that should be designed to automatically ingest text files or other sources and publish them automatically.
On a short inspection, these come to mind:
http://www.slackware.com/security/
http://www.slackware.com/changelog/
https://mirrors.slackware.com/
On the documentation, there are only a few official guides, installation/maintenance tools/network configuration documentation on both www.slackware.com and AlienBob's web presence, that are also indirectly presenting the distro design and the expected methods to admin/config.
These are pretty much sufficient for the introduction and first setup and look to be the only ones maintained by the "core" Slackware development. Their official status however is relative, depending who you ask, the disposition, personal agenda and hormonal balance of that person ... and more importantly the actual alignment of stars during that particular moment.
These would be the sections I'd suggest to be kept preserved, functionality-wise.

The rest of the documentation, HowTo's on different use cases, is a community effort and I don't see how this could change, given that there are no resources available for "seniority" to check the "apprentices", but only correction based on community feedback. Well, pretty much like the whole Slackware development works in the BDFL fashion. Fashion, because there is no place to bend the term organization, as there is none, just a BDFL and a community feedback process.

There are 3 other considerations that I'd like to expose. First, the simplicity of the design, not relying on too many dependencies, making the site easy to maintain and move around on hosting services. Then the robustness and security of the code - no one wants to see the Slackware site hacked. And finally the migration process should be made easy - as much automated as possible.

One last "selfish" request, a function to automatically parse the non-human friendly changelog and highlight the added packages would be beneficial. I suggested, in an older thread, a slight format change of the changelog, because I always need to "fish" the real "Added" packages on -current with the help of grep, and I didn't see any serious reply/feedback on that.

I provided my inputs after reading astrogeek's post #31 and realizing that there is no stakeholder available for a proper business analysis / requirements gathering/engineering process, also understanding why the other attempts failed. The only available method would be to mimic the actual setup and focus on making the missing stakeholder happy about the ease of adoption/usage/maintenance.
 
Old 10-09-2019, 04:06 PM   #44
Didier Spaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abga View Post
I provided my inputs after reading astrogeek's post #31 and realizing that there is no stakeholder available for a proper business analysis / requirements gathering/engineering process, also understanding why the other attempts failed. The only available method would be to mimic the actual setup and focus on making the missing stakeholder happy about the ease of adoption/usage/maintenance.
abga, you made my day. I am acquainted with the concepts and vocabulary of systems engineering, including requirements management, stakeholders, system specification, use cases, verification and validation, life cycle and such and although retired still keep archives of various literature on such topics but "making the missing stakeholder happy" is something that never came to my mind. So I have learned something today, thanks for that!

Last edited by Didier Spaier; 10-09-2019 at 04:15 PM.
 
Old 10-09-2019, 06:38 PM   #45
abga
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@Didier Spaier

Sorry for being so creative, I felt describing the actual situation required it. (IT) Business Analysis represents a significant part of my professional life, not yet retired & focusing more on Business Analytics, and apart from obviously knowing the terminology I also gathered a lot of experience, including project failures - good&unavoidable practical lessons. Now, unsatisfactory BA/requirements engineering is the main cause for project delays, over-budgets and occasional project failures, I'm sure you know that.
The term stakeholder has a broad definition, comprising all persons, institutions, documents and regulations/standards which are dependent/or affected in any way on the development and operation of the product/service and are the source of information (requirements).
In the current situation you have the community actively participating in communication, drawing some requirements, a "wannabe" stakeholder so to say, that has limited significance for the requirements and none for the new product/service acceptance.
On the other side you have the actual and only significant stakeholder, the BDFL, who is missing/absent from the BA/RE process, for reasons described by astrogeek in #31, and who will have the OK/"meh" say at the end.
I just presented my view on how to approach this situation and increase the odds for success, by trying to mimic the actual setup, following 3 guidelines for the design, focus mainly on the "well being" of the missing stakeholder and maybe use some crystal ball - guess work when in doubt.
 
  


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