Excellent post!
Extremely well written.
Thank you.

My situation is similar. My desktop runs 12.2 very well, but falls down with -current due to graphics limitations. My feelings regarding KDE4 aside, the recent issues regarding the intel drivers have likely sealed the fate of this box to run 12.2 as the last Slackware release. In truth, I have been slower and slower to upgrade anyway over the years and was really unwilling to mess with a great setup here anyway.

My laptop is a different story and as a result, I have created a multi-boot system with XP, 12.2, and what will be 13.0. This has worked well for me and is perhaps one reason why, despite sharing you feelings with respect to KDE4, I do not share your sense of abandonment.

Given the fact that Slackware has always funtioned extremely well as the foundation for a customized system, it can be difficult for Slackers to accept anyone telling them "you can't have that", so I understand where you're coming from. I don't think the Gnome situation is a fair comparison though. When Gnome went from 1.4 to 2.0, I don't think you saw Distros offering both. Slackware dropping Gnome was a choice by Slackware and Gnome users were abandoned. Yes XFCE was an alternative, but it was not Gnome.

I see this more along the lines of the end of the 2.4.x kernel support.

In my opinion, 2.6 was ready long before it was included in Slackware. KDE4 on the other hand was not and I think this is really the issue. The distinction that I think should be made here is that KDE developement is a KDE concern, not a Slackware decision. KDE4 is ready or not ready regardless of what Distro you install it with. I don't see switching Distros as an option here any more that I see it as an option to use another distro to run KDE 3.5. Is that even an option? And is it better than sticking with 12.2 until 13.1 is released?

In my opinion, you are placing too much responsibility on Slackware for your disatisfaction with the progress in KDE developement. I also see any continued support of a dying project (KDE 3.5) to not be in the best interest of Slackware, which has been accused (usually by the uninformed) of being behind the times in many aspects of it's philosophy.

Isn't that begging the question?
In other words, you are saying throw out what works and use what doesn't work (as well) just because it is "new and modern" so Slackware is not considered "behind the times"?

Why not give the users the option, during the installation, of using KDE 3.5.10 or KDE 4.whatever? Make it another selection included in the list of desktop options already available and offered during the setup/installation.

From Changelog on Wed Jun 10 13:23:30 CDT 2009
It`s not that complicated and the dev team have the knowledge to give us some space to improve the system. If you cut some kde`s ties with x, rebuild both and also rebuild all the graphic system, you can keep 3.5.x with new kernels, modules and drivers.

Almost all main distributions are adopting kde4. It`s time to move on, seriously. I`m giving it a real try and calmly setting the system. Had some minor trouble as I have some stuff manually packaged and installed.

Still a bit lost with all those shinning things popping around but making the way without much pain...

Well, let me ask this. I see nothing that makes me feel like I would need to move to 13.0 despite being forced to give up KDE 3.5.10 (in the case of my desktop). But that's just me and I'm sure others feel they do need to upgrade for reasons not KDE related - thus the reason for this and other threads.

Just wanting other people's ideas of what they think they need in the upcoming release (non KDE related) that would prevent staying with 12.2 from being an option. Slackware64 is clearly one (and a more recent factor than the origination of these threads), but I was wondering if there are others.

I'm not saying that your idea to have the choice isn't without merit, I'm just wonder why sticking with 12.2 for another release can't be an option for those who want to wait for the missing peices to be included in KDE4.

This is welcome news for me, Eric as having a non-functional version of k3b would be a deal breaker for me. Good to hear that k3b from KDE3 will work with Slackware 13.0.
I am looking forward to KDE4. I am running KDE 4.2.2 on my FreeBSD 7.2-amd64 partition on my main Slackware 12.2 work station and I love it.
In my opinion KDE 4.2.4 will be a welcome addition to the stable branch of Slackware.

Well, it can certainly be an option. While I would like to try Slackware64, I'll probably stay with 12.2 until I've read the applications I use daily are equal to their KDE 3.5.10 predecessors.
Slamd64 12.2 is also an option.

The Kde 3.5 series won't be dying anytime soon. There is a lot of fuss on the KDE site aimed at the KDE developers. So they will maintain bug fixes. If I recall correctly it was said there would be a 3.5.11. There was news about Linus ditching Fedora because he was upgraded automatically to KDE 4 a couple of months back. My family didn't seem to like KDE 4 when I tested it. We did try it on an Nvidia chipset, latest driver.

I read the K3B guy was getting help from Mandriva developers?

I don't know how everyone else feels but I'll probably skip the 13 release. I've never been one that upgraded everytime pat.v graced us with a release. I don't mean to sound negative, I just am.

I ran 9.2 I think for what? about 3 years. May have been 4 years. I was a big on WindowMaker and abiword.


On topic, as I've tried out current.
1. Colour Graidents and Blending are missing from the Desktop Customizations. If you didn't use these I do and it looks awesome when enabled. Red-Black with Contrast on purples and pinks wow. Basically you are missing a package.
2. KOffice is just inadequate, for quacks sake go ahead and include OpenOffice. I mean yall have packages. Abiword / Gnucalc are loads better than this crap. It's got new features that get in the way of typing.
3. Wicd should be default. I give up hoping for Knetworkmanager on a default install.
4. Hi, it's 2009 and it'd totally be nice to have a default .xmodmaprc which included multimedia keys. It's so simple I can write one with my eyes almost shut and no manpage. 174, 160, 176 mute, volup, and voldown. Who's still not using a multimedia keyboard????
5. How about a backport for the new file formats -- not kde specific -- so us adament on sticking with a 12.2 base will be able to use the newer packages.
6. Where's Quanta?
7. Kastroids is missing?
8. All the copy-To and move-To short cuts were nice. Sadly they are delegated to features of Dolphin. Which are disabled by default.
9. Remember my aforemention of WindowMaker? It's sad that it has more usability than the actual desktop usabilility of Plasma. Plasma is only feisable if you are willing to accept the 1990's paradyme of a desktop.

Partially true. The developer of K3B *is* employed by Mandriva, but he is busy working on Nepomuk, so Mandriva decided to let someone else work on K3B, which ultimately led to the original developer doing some work there as well.

Basically, most notebook and server users.

I don't see are reason to backport new features to old releases. If you want txz, use 13.0 or compile the required packages yourself.

In development

Unmaintained

That's just bullshit. A main target of plasma was to not stick to
the 1990's desktop paradigm. The current implementation looks very much like it, because most user *wanted* it to look like it. That's
why the plasma developers first concentrated on implementing a traditional desktop. But there's a lot more to come.
Take a look at the special containments for netbooks or for teachers.
There's even a media center in development. Plasma is *way* more than just a 1990's desktop.

Good news! As I reported in my original thread, I tested the 2.6.30 kernel and the problem is history. The 2.6.30 forcedeth.c source code contains a noticeable comment in one section about the NIC "persisting after reboot." I warm rebooted several times. No lock-ups, no latching of the router.

I would welcome such news, but I would like to see some links to provide evidence of such claims. Most of what I have read indicates the KDE developers practically no longer acknowledge the existence of 3.5.x. Regardless, if you want to help people continue using 3.5.10 with Slackware, there is a thread already available to post solutions. So far the only significant nuisance bug is the lack of support for the new package formats in Ark. If you can provide help in that area several people here would be grateful.

I would like to see Ark 3.5.10 patched to support the newer formats. I suspect the patch Robbie W. graciously posted is very close to working. We simply need some more attention on the issue from some folks.

Installing and using packages with the newer formats is a non-issue. Install the new xz and pkgtools packages from 13.0. Without patching Ark won't help view the new package format contents, but installing the xz and pkgtools packages will allow people to install packages using the new formats.

I have not spent any time testing KDE4, but I find such a statement questionable. Everything I have read in reviews about KDE4 suggests KDE4 is highly customizable and more future-proof than existing desktops. Not to mention cross-platform potentials through QT4.

To me the question never was about the eventual stability or potential of KDE4 but the completeness. Although I have been critical of the wide-scale early adoption of KDE4, I never have closed the doors to migrating. I think KDE4 is quite nice on the eyes, but not yet ready for my desktop. When all third-party apps are fully KDE4 compliant and when I notice people no longer are complaining en masse about KDE4 bugs and design issues (such as with the newer Amarok), then I'll be content and ready to seriously look at KDE4. My desire to continue with 3.5.10 is short-term, probably for another 12 months or so. Considering the pace at which development moves with KDE4, possibly by the end of the calendar year the desktop will be in fine shape, robust, and very stable. Thus, I can see myself moving to KDE4 sooner, although I am in no rush.

Venting is normal and usually healthy, but I also believe that those who vent should be ready to help find solutions. I'm known for my contrarian opinions, but typically I roll up my sleeves and then get to work. I have been posting the results of my efforts. That is the essential spirit of free/libre software. This transition from KDE 3.5 to 4.x is short-term. In the end KDE 4 will be a fine desktop and 3.5 will be history, much like Windows 3.x, Windows NT, etc. In the mean time I would like to see the general complaining stop and notice people focusing constructively on both sides of the issue by providing solutions for both types of users.

Akonadi is annoying... First time Amarok ran, I almost pulled the cable when the lyrics showed up

To me KDE4 is A huge improvement in every way over KDE3 From a usability stand point. Especially For normal users. We power users have learned all the quirks and how to navigate around them. Normal users can learn to dodge the Quirks to, but it frustrates them. I have used KDE for years along with my family. It is a big change and its not easy to make change. I also concede its not as mature as 3.10 and that shows in many ways. I applaud the KDE team and cheer them on for the Excellent improvements in usability for the regular users they have made (that includes ME!). KDE4 is Great!
I remember always wanting the newest kde Hopeing it would fix problems I was having with it.

Woodsman,

Just curious, but why do your LQ links posted in threads begin with https?

LQ is slow enough to load without the SSL layer.

Hopefully, there will be bugfixes, too, not only security patches.

Regarding the thread topic: I have had a 64-bit computer running OpenSuSE 11.1 with KDE 4, and I liked it so much, that I couldn't almost stand the waiting for a 64-bit Slackware. When the RC was announced I immediately tested it, and finally installed it on this 64-bit machine, replacing the OpenSuSE 11.1 (which is an excellent distro, just Slackware 13.0 RC is even better in some details important for me).

Programs like digikam run so much better in KDE4 on 64-bit hardware, that I don't miss 3.5. Currently, I use the 64-bit machine for multimedia purposes, but all my tests with other applications indicate that it is already very stable, including KDE 4.

As much as I accept the point that KDE 4 may lack one or another feature, I am still much more productive with it. I don't miss the dropped configuration attributes from 3.5, as KDE 4 is just right out of the box for me. Its defaults are what I had to set up manually in every 3.x release myself. Also, the whole KDE 4 desktop can be used much more intuitively than 3.5 by an unexperienced user (and by dummies like me). It may not do all the things the latest incarnations of KDE 3.x do, but it does almost anything it does better, i. e. more user-friendly, faster and generally more efficient, than its predecessor.

Most important though: KDE 4 has this certain WOW effect!
Finally I feel the fascination of Unix again, that went away when I stopped using FVWM2 and started using KDE 3. KDE 4 is simply appealing!
BTW, I have Windows 7, here, too, which is the best Windows ever. For the first time in history, it seems, that Microsoft has listened to end-users. The Windows 7 desktop is excellent. Only snag: KDE 4 is even better!

But if you are just used to the way KDE 3.5 works, you now have to re-learn, which is much harder than to learn something completely new for the first time.

Now the question here is: What do you do with users who don't upgrade? Will there be security and bugfixes for KDE 3.5.10? I would think so, because Slackware has always had a good reputation for long-term maintenance. But doesn't this mean that there must be a repository, anyway?
If so, why not provide a little script or tool converting .tgz to .txz, so that users of Slackware 13 can use the packages, too?
Just an idea.

This would be a simple solution offering users the chance to decide when to migrate, themselves.

But, of course, the goal of every migration is to eliminate the old solution.

gargamel

As to KOffice, I second what others have said. It's pretty useless, as long as it does not even produce proper RTF documents. All the versions I tested including early 2.0 development snapshots were unable to import and write back documents produced with MS Office or OpenOffice.org without modifying the file and rendering it unreadable for the original application.

KOffice has good usability and features, but as long as it destroys documents it is no option. If it would only support one portable document format it would be good enough. A good decision could be to concentrate exclusively on ODF, instead of trying to support each and every format there is, and not getting a single one right.

For the time being, it means, that a Slackware release with KOffice is no better than a Slackware release without an office suite, at all, unfortunately.

Including KOffice, but not apps like the excellent and highly popular Digikam, or OpenOffice.org is therefore questionable, but, of course, these apps can be simply installed from various sources.

gargamel