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Old 01-04-2011, 09:48 PM   #1
slkrover
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Is the next Slackware32B(14?) going to have large memory capability enabled?


Just wondering now I see computers everywhere with 6G of ram or more if the new 32b kernels are going to be setup for large amounts of ram or will they still need to be recompiled? Also will there be better ssd support for things like "trim"? I know you edit the fstab to get the Linux version of trim but I am just wondering if stuff like that will just be automatic or if I will continue to need to tweak. I like to tweak but sometimes its the lack of need for tweaking that makes me like slack. It just works with no headaches.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 04:34 AM   #2
davidsrsb
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Maybe 14 (not the next one) will be 64 bit only. I believe that a very high proportion of developers already use 64 bit as their main systems these days. This must make 32 bit builds increasingly under-tested.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 04:51 AM   #3
GazL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsrsb View Post
Maybe 14 (not the next one) will be 64 bit only. I believe that a very high proportion of developers already use 64 bit as their main systems these days. This must make 32 bit builds increasingly under-tested.
That would be highly unlikely.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 05:01 AM   #4
enorbet
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Automatic?

@dacidsrb You misunderstood. 32 bit Linux can address 64GB of ram with PAE enabled in the kernel. Look here

@slkrover If you read the above wiki you will see that some applications have difficulties when ram addressing exceeds certain limits. High Memory support in the Linux 32 bit kernel is divided into 3 options 1) Off 2)4GB and 3)64GB. Consider which option makes the best default?

Unlike Windoze, unless you're running a fairly massive server with lots of workstations it is highly unlikely you will ever max out even 2GB ram. If you are running software with those requirements or a server of that demand then you will find selecting the appropriate support level and recompiling not only trivial, but an important privilege also impossible in Windoze. This is the very reason, or at least a big one, that Linux outstrips Windoze on servers and embedded systems - flexibility, scaleability and choice. I don't see any option but "Off" being default any time soon.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 09:41 AM   #5
lumak
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PAE use isn't even recommended by the Linux Kernel developers. It almost seems like it was a feature added for completeness. It's stability in Linux is questionable. Though, if you did have a problem with it, you may not even know. A memory problem could happen and a program my freak out or return an invalid result. You would never know if it was the Kernel or the program. However, many people that use it claim that they have never had a problem. To them I say, how do you know?

Aside from that, almost everything is 64bit compatible and if it isn't, there is always multi-lib which seems to function reasonably well. I would suspect that only the things using assembly would be stuck. For example, zsnes can not be compiled in a 64bit environment. However, it is possible to compile it in a 32bit environment and run it on 64bit multi-lib.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 09:52 AM   #6
davidsrsb
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Exactly, PAE is a bit of a bodge at best.
Sooner or later 64 bit is going to become the norm, maybe by the end of this year? I am still on 32 bit myself, but hope to try 64 bit fairly soon.
When you look at servers, then 64 bit is already becoming the standard as MS Windows Server has jumped.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 10:30 AM   #7
Alien Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GazL View Post
That would be highly unlikely.
Never going to happen is a better statement.

The Slackware team use 32-bit as much as 64-bit Slackware on their computers. The initial package builds are usually done for 64-bit because that exposes any "lib versus lib64" bugs in the build, but other than that, 32-bit Slackware gets as much testing as 64-bit.

There will be 32-bit computer hardware for a long time to come. And in the past year I have seen a few prorietary programs that started offering 64-bit binaries but a lot of others are still 32-bit only. I do not foresee that that is going to change any time soon.

Eric
 
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:47 AM   #8
Darth Vader
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Good old debate about PAE ...

PAE will eat your dog? God will punish you, because you use PAE?

My opinion: there's nothing evil in PAE and it works very well in Linux.

It is true, it is a somewhat slower memory access (estimated at 25% differences), but the memory is not the slowest in your system. The impact is minimal, because many other components are considerably slower. First of all, the champions are the hard disks, with an honor award for the PCI bus.

If, before moving on PAE and use all 8G of your system in Slackware32, you want an overview, here is a synthetic test, made by Phoronix:

Ubuntu 32-bit, 32-bit PAE, 64-bit Kernel Benchmarks

And last but not least, PAE provides NX, which is an excellent protection against the exploits and buffer overflow attacks. If a PAE/NX kernel, in a mysterious way, will kill your process, you can be sure that a programmer has done something stupid. Don't blame the kernel, blame the application developer.

Perhaps it would not be so painful for the Slackware distribution, also to ship a set of PAE/NX kernels for those who want to stay in Slackware32, and they have more than 3G memory on the system (almost all the relative new computers).

Last edited by Darth Vader; 01-05-2011 at 11:06 AM.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 11:26 AM   #9
Petri Kaukasoina
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Linus in linux-kernel: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/900604

The conclusion: "There's a reason I personally refuse to even care about >2GB 32-bit machines. There's just no excuse these days to do that."
 
Old 01-05-2011, 12:25 PM   #10
Darth Vader
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petri Kaukasoina View Post
Linus in linux-kernel: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/900604

The conclusion: "There's a reason I personally refuse to even care about >2GB 32-bit machines. There's just no excuse these days to do that."
Everyone knows about PAE/NX Linus's views. For this kernel's PAE/NX support, Linus is the child's stepfather, because it complicates the memory management. However, the kernel has a perfect PAE/NX support, because today there are plenty of pure x86 servers, with more than 2G memory. And RedHat and Novell will support them. You known, today, we eat what RedHat and Novell cook.

The real problem of PAE compared to x86_64, is that you have a 4G memory limit, to allocate to a process, of total maximum of 64G. This can become a problem for applications such as 3D RENDERS, for example. But not everyone has a Pixar Render Farm at home, right?

Anyway, my personal solution is to use an x86_64 kernel, on top of Slackware32, because I don't like Multi-Lib and I hit the 4G memory limit per process. It may be so.

But if we debate the PAE/NX, I do not think that's a bad choice ...

Last edited by Darth Vader; 01-05-2011 at 12:42 PM.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 12:36 PM   #11
GazL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Never going to happen is a better statement.

The Slackware team use 32-bit as much as 64-bit Slackware on their computers. The initial package builds are usually done for 64-bit because that exposes any "lib versus lib64" bugs in the build, but other than that, 32-bit Slackware gets as much testing as 64-bit.

There will be 32-bit computer hardware for a long time to come. And in the past year I have seen a few prorietary programs that started offering 64-bit binaries but a lot of others are still 32-bit only. I do not foresee that that is going to change any time soon.

Eric
That's what I was hinitng at, but 'never' is a long time.

I've still got a working P3-800 that dates back to ~ 2000, but all of the purchases I've made after that seem to have blown capacitors or suffered other fatalities somewhere around the 3-5 year mark. They just don't make electronics to the same standards they used to. I doubt much of our current 32bit only kit will still be functional 10 years from now.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 12:40 PM   #12
guanx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petri Kaukasoina View Post
Linus in linux-kernel: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/900604

The conclusion: "There's a reason I personally refuse to even care about >2GB 32-bit machines. There's just no excuse these days to do that."
I don't see any reason to forbid me from using more than 4GB memory with my Intel Core Duo CPU. However, if Linus can give me a Core 2 Duo for free, I will agree with him.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 05:06 PM   #13
onebuck
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Hi,

I too expect 32bit to be around for a long time. Not everyone in this world has the latest and greatest hardware. Loads of people still using fully functional equipment long past the time table of the marketing people.

If it ain't broke don't fix it, let it keep running on and on....

As is a tale, so is life: not how long it is, but how good it is, is what matters.”- Seneca

 
Old 01-05-2011, 05:21 PM   #14
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guanx View Post
I don't see any reason to forbid me from using more than 4GB memory with my Intel Core Duo CPU. However, if Linus can give me a Core 2 Duo for free, I will agree with him.
I think there is a difference between forbidding something and saying "I personally refuse". No one will forbid you to use as much RAM as you want.
 
Old 01-05-2011, 05:31 PM   #15
guanx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
I think there is a difference between forbidding something and saying "I personally refuse". No one will forbid you to use as much RAM as you want.
If the major maintainer(s) refuse to care about sth., it's under the risk of being forbidden. -- Though in principle anyone can fork their own Linu>< versions.
 
  


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