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Old 10-23-2014, 08:53 PM   #16
k3lt01
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I used Grub 2 when I was running Slackware, I will use Grub2 with LFS as well. It is not complex it is not bloated, it does what I and many others want it to do (just like lilo does for other people). It pretty much comes down to personal choice.
 
Old 10-23-2014, 09:24 PM   #17
Richard Cranium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckied View Post
Sorry, I don't mean to sound snarky or anything but if someone forgets to run lilo or upgrade-grub after boot, do they not deserve to learn the hard way to "do things right the first time". Just saying....
After the 3rd effing time from forgetting to "do things right the first time", I started using something that let me recover from effing up. YMMV.
 
Old 10-23-2014, 11:39 PM   #18
stf92
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Lilo for ever! I began some months ago to disassemble it, trying to follow the first stage, but now I realize I can get the sources if I like. ONly their most likely written in AT&T format and don't know any good AT&T to Intel translator. Also, at least the first stage uses the BIOS, understandable because it has to be supercompatible. I do not understand how a UEFI can be larger than a particle-collision simulator. They began by adding color to the BIOS and the size was doubling once a year!
 
Old 10-24-2014, 01:33 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saulgoode View Post
...
I'm not opposed to some degree of complexity, but using a 35MB package to load a 4MB kernel seems rather extreme.
Why care about package size? You're running slackware on embedded system with rather limited space or you have 20 gb hdd?
 
Old 10-24-2014, 02:00 AM   #20
chrisretusn
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It is worth it? Not in my opinion. Using grub with Slackware just ain't right, again that's my opinion. I prefer lilo, it simple and does the job. I don't normally forget to run lilo. Have I? Of course I have. I have another fall back last working kernel to boot from. There is always a boot disk. Recovery is always possible.

Last edited by chrisretusn; 10-24-2014 at 02:02 AM.
 
Old 10-24-2014, 02:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dad_ View Post
GRUB is far more flexible & convenient - for example you don't have to update its executable code(installed to MBR or partition) each time after you change something in your boot config - it just works. Also it has more powerful command line - you could even access filesystems at GRUB prompt. Why slackware still uses lilo - I don't know, IMHO it's obsolete for many years already. But if you're not annoyed with the lilo inconvenience then it's not a problem.
Have you tried installing GRUB to a partition? It does not just work.

I hope Slackware never gets on the GRUB bandwagon. My experience of LILO is that it's far more flexible and easy to use than GRUB. GRUB is easy if you follow the staked-out path. If you want to do anything special, no matter how insignificant, it's like tying your shoelaces with boxing gloves.

It may be worth using GRUB with some distribution if LILO is not available or doesn't work for some reason, but LILO is the standard boot loader in Slackware. It's usually safest to go with the standard. And it's easier to find documentation and help.
 
Old 10-24-2014, 02:42 AM   #22
Didier Spaier
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Lilliput against Blefuscu again?

Live and let live!
 
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:24 AM   #23
dad_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soderlund View Post
Have you tried installing GRUB to a partition? It does not just work.
I don't remember . I had troubles with grub legacy on some older hardware - that's true. I started using grub with distributions where it goes out of the box(debian for example) and I liked it . I haven't tried it on Slackware AFAIR, now I have EFI so I don't use lilo any more. (elilo is another story, I also want to get rid of it). For me the only benefit of lilo on Slackware is that it is installed by default - you don't have to care about the first installation. But if Slackware supplied GRUB(or a choice of grub/lilo on installation) some time ago - it would be more adequate IMHO.
 
Old 10-24-2014, 03:31 AM   #24
Richard Cranium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisretusn View Post
It is worth it? Not in my opinion. Using grub with Slackware just ain't right, again that's my opinion. I prefer lilo, it simple and does the job. I don't normally forget to run lilo. Have I? Of course I have. I have another fall back last working kernel to boot from. There is always a boot disk. Recovery is always possible.
It's possible to move 5 tons of earth with a spoon, too. I just don't care to do that.

Obviously, the choice of using lilo over grub/grub2 isn't as silly as attempting to use a spoon in place of a bulldozer/bucketloader. The way that *I* work, it's normally best to be able to easily recover from screwing up a kernel upgrade. Grub/grub2 allows me to do that without changing the way that I do things. Lilo forces me to find the installation DVD, remember the commands to make LVM volumes visible, and remember the commands to mount everything with the proper chroot invocation.

Oddly, I have done that enough times that I pretty much remember how to do it. It's a hell of a lot easier to tab complete in the grub command line to find the correct entries to bring up the system.

If you don't want to use grub/grub2, that's fine. I actually still use lilo on some of my systems (which is why I remember all those commands). I'm not claiming that you should grub/grub2, but there are a lot of cases where using grub/grub2 make sense.

Your mileage may vary.
 
Old 10-24-2014, 04:04 AM   #25
Drakeo
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From hating to loving grub2

I have absolutely no problems with lilo but when grub2 became part of the full install I knew Pat had done it right he did not mess with it and it runs like it is suppose to. I find it better for what I need and has allowed me to learn grub2 the way it should be used vanilla. I have stopped using lilo and have been very happy with Grub2.
for kernel upgrades edit the grub2 at boot up. Thank you Pat for giving me back my Slack.

There is a security reason why grub legacy was only an extra. And Pat pointed it out.

Last edited by Drakeo; 10-24-2014 at 04:06 AM.
 
Old 10-24-2014, 08:04 AM   #26
saulgoode
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dad_ View Post
Why care about package size? You're running slackware on embedded system with rather limited space or you have 20 gb hdd?
You are correct that memory/disk space is not really an issue in and of itself, but it does serve as an indicant of the complexity of the design. If a program is 30 times the size of another, it is likely much more complex and the chances of my misunderstanding what its configuration is and what it's doing are that much greater.

With the simplicity of lilo, I can understand everything that it's going to do without needing to worry about device numbers, partitions, filesystems, or DMA support. If my configuration fails, it is almost certainly owing to my having made a mistake, and not due to a misapprehension of some nuance of the bootloader's usage or of unexpected hardware behavior. And -- this may not be the case for everyone -- I am much better at resolving problems of misapplying knowledge that I have than I am at discovering an area of deficiency in my knowledge. (I am also typically better at discovering bugs I have created than at tracking down bugs caused by others, but for the sake of argument I won't go into how a more complex design is generally more likely to encounter bugs than a simpler one.)


If someone wishes to use GRUB for their bootloader, doing so certainly does not confront me. Nonetheless, I am glad lilo is available as it better suits my sensibilities.
 
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Old 10-24-2014, 12:54 PM   #27
Drakeo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckied View Post
Sorry, I don't mean to sound snarky or anything but if someone forgets to run lilo or upgrade-grub after boot, do they not deserve to learn the hard way to "do things right the first time". Just saying....
you just update grub boom after a kernel update boom your done right. Are you running slackware. If you are then I never update grub till after I reboot with huge vmlinuz make my intrid. since grub2 really does not use the map I update grub when I feel like it. or just edit the grub.cfg. It is only Ubuntu that does all that stuff after a update. and I never use ubuntu's grub2.

grub2 is pretty much a small system and is able to sync with any fstab just like grub/legacy.

I haven't done a grub-mkconfig in so long i just open my editor and handle it there. I have way to many systems and hard drives for some generic program to start doing all my editing for me. Grub2 is great for a lot of today's hotswap systems and syncing with when you have it set up and running.
Snarky oh may be.
This way I always have a grub menu for vmlinuz that points to vmlinuz-huge. we have had three kernel upgrades in current in the last 6 months trust me you need that huge.

Last edited by Drakeo; 10-24-2014 at 01:01 PM.
 
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Old 10-25-2014, 12:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigint-ninja View Post
i know lilo is old and less functional than grub
It's still being actively developed, it seems to boot the system and I'm not sure what else it's supposed to do? grub is a bootloader and a whole lot more, if you like it, install it. The main man seems to be ok with lilo since the 90s, so it must do something right.

When I made a mess and couldn't boot, I'd just boot from the slackware disc chroot in, fix it - done.

Last edited by cynwulf; 10-25-2014 at 12:46 PM.
 
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Old 10-26-2014, 11:58 PM   #29
chrisretusn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
It's possible to move 5 tons of earth with a spoon, too. I just don't care to do that.

Obviously, the choice of using lilo over grub/grub2 isn't as silly as attempting to use a spoon in place of a bulldozer/bucketloader. The way that *I* work, it's normally best to be able to easily recover from screwing up a kernel upgrade. Grub/grub2 allows me to do that without changing the way that I do things. Lilo forces me to find the installation DVD, remember the commands to make LVM volumes visible, and remember the commands to mount everything with the proper chroot invocation.

Oddly, I have done that enough times that I pretty much remember how to do it. It's a hell of a lot easier to tab complete in the grub command line to find the correct entries to bring up the system.

If you don't want to use grub/grub2, that's fine. I actually still use lilo on some of my systems (which is why I remember all those commands). I'm not claiming that you should grub/grub2, but there are a lot of cases where using grub/grub2 make sense.

Your mileage may vary.
Why use a bulldozer/bucket loader when a spoon will do.

Lilo fits with the way I do things. It's been a very long time since I had to "recover" from a kernel "upgrade". Actually I "install" the new kernel so I don't replace the previous working kernel. I am fairly certain the last "recover" was my fault, forgot to run lilo probably. I cannot remember the last time I had to fall back to the working kernel because the new one had issues. No need to find my boot CD, just select the last working kernel on boot up. All of my systems are set up this way. If I really messed up, then I can use the boot CD, it's easy to find or I can just boot to the network install.

In my humble opinion, lilo is a natural fit to Slackware, grub over complicates things. As I already stated, for me Slackware without lilo just ain't right. That said if I ever run in to a situation were grub is needed, I will us it. To date, for me, that has not happened. (I am referring to both grub/grub2 in general when using grub.)
 
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Old 10-27-2014, 12:20 AM   #30
ruario
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You could all do yourselves a favour and use extlinux, a component of syslinux as your boot loader. Very simple config format and no need to do any update after installing a new kernel.
 
  


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