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Old 08-25-2019, 12:39 AM   #361
drgibbon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivandi View Post
If Slackware ships systemd tomorrow the wannabe geeks wont even notice. They blindly run slackpkg anyway. The fanatics will instantly change their tune because BOB told them so and will prize "Slackware's systemd - the best in the world".
Hardly. Slackware's rejection of systemd is a drawcard for people that want to avoid it.
 
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Old 08-25-2019, 02:15 AM   #362
ZhaoLin1457
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Originally Posted by drgibbon View Post
Slackware's rejection of systemd is a drawcard for people that want to avoid it.
Yes, but those "who want to avoid it" are few and they barely pay, if they even pay...

At the end of day, is there a market for the "systemd free" solutions?

The single reason for the lack of a frenetic development of "separate components" which now forms this systemd is that no one pays for this development.

Last edited by ZhaoLin1457; 08-25-2019 at 02:44 AM.
 
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Old 08-25-2019, 04:20 AM   #363
zeebra
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Originally Posted by ZhaoLin1457 View Post
At the end of day, is there a market for the "systemd free" solutions?
There is, this thread among others (alot of them) and content online and distroes and such speaks loudly for the "systemd free" solutions, then you have all the people who say nothing but think the same way, who is a much larger group than the loud ones. For example those who by very conscious choice are running a systemd free distro. The fact it even has a term.

Then you have those who lean against systemd, but for some reason or another use it. Then you have the distroes themselves, take the whole Debian debate and devuan etc, just one example. Some distroes would use a better alternative, but felt forced to use systemd and has done so partly unwillingly. There is absolutely a market for systemd free systems, and I think it is much larger than you realize.
 
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Old 08-25-2019, 04:41 AM   #364
LuckyCyborg
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Greg Kroah-Hartman. This is the man who invented and maintained UDEV for years, before it was integrated in systemd.

Also Mr. Kroah-Hartman is a well payed programmer, and the rumors says that he earns at least $1000000 per year. I say "rumors" just because we do not know for sure from official sources, compared with Mr. Torvalds' public declared $3000000 per year. BUT, we know who payed Mr. Kroah-Hartman to develop that UDEV in that particular era: Novell, Inc. - the company behind SuSE.

And that's only a part of what is today that systemd. Then I wonder how much costs to challenge systemd? Several millions of dollars every year, to be payed to very skilled programmers?

You people talk about philosophy, when behind is about astonishing sums of money which someone should pay to satisfy your philosophical complains.

Guess what? Nobody bothers yet to pay millions just for the sake of a bunch of "cyber-Luddites" like you, who are insignificant as customers, because you make a point of pride from making a Linux operating system unusable in business.

Last edited by LuckyCyborg; 08-25-2019 at 05:16 AM.
 
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Old 08-25-2019, 05:39 AM   #365
zeebra
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Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
Greg Kroah-Hartman. This is the man who invented and maintained UDEV for years, before it was integrated in systemd.

Also Mr. Kroah-Hartman is a well payed programmer, and the rumors says that he earns at least $1000000 per year. I say "rumors" just because we do not know for sure from official sources, compared with Mr. Torvalds' public declared $3000000 per year. BUT, we know who payed Mr. Kroah-Hartman to develop that UDEV in that particular era: Novell, Inc. - the company behind SuSE.

And that's only a part of what is today that systemd. Then I wonder how much costs to challenge systemd? Several millions of dollars every year, to be payed to very skilled programmers?

You people talk about philosophy, when behind is about astonishing sums of money which someone should pay to satisfy your philosophical complains.

Guess what? Nobody bothers yet to pay millions just for the sake of a bunch of "cyber-Luddites" like you, who are insignificant as customers, because you make a point of pride from making a Linux operating system unusable in business.
I think you are wrong. It doesn't take that much at all. In fact, born out of this thread is my own thread and idea about a systemd replacement.
https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...acement-38056/

Have a look into that. Think whatever you may, but I think it is possible to make a systemd replacement with less than "millions" as you say. I've talked a little bit about it in that thread, but not mentioned specific amounts. But I have something in mind and I think it could be possible. We are in a community of people, some users and some coders, some advanced, some less advanced. To draw their interest into a specific project would not necessarily be hugely expensive to "compete" with systemd and their corporate millions. Some people would do it for free even, some people have already done parts of it for free. Some people really WANT to do it for free, purely for ideological reasons. It would just need to gather enough interests, including some of those people who would not do it for free only, but perhaps be encouraged by some rewards. Once non-payed and payed development interest would peek, the first version would be ready and the "end cost" would not be in the millions.
 
Old 08-25-2019, 10:43 AM   #366
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Here's an annoying case I've just got involved in (but I think I'm already out of my depth!). The OP, a newbie who strikes me as an intelligent and cooperative person, is running Debian and can't boot after an update and an emergency fsck. The kernel panics. The panic message is "Attempted to kill init", so clearly systemd was found and launched successfully but then crashed for some reason. If the disk couldn't be read because of filesystem corruption, he would have had that other message about init not being found.

We have established that the crash occurred before the journal could be written out, so no information is available from there. A fsck carried out from the live installation image found nothing untoward on the disk.

Now if that had been a sysvinit distro, he could simply boot into a shell and test out the scripts and find out if there was a blockage somewhere. That's certainly what I would do in Slackware or LFS. But what the heck do you do if systemd crashes?

Last edited by hazel; 08-25-2019 at 10:45 AM.
 
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:04 AM   #367
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
But what the heck do you do if systemd crashes?
Reinstall.
 
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:10 AM   #368
ZhaoLin1457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Here's an annoying case I've just got involved in (but I think I'm already out of my depth!). The OP, a newbie who strikes me as an intelligent and cooperative person, is running Debian and can't boot after an update and an emergency fsck. The kernel panics. The panic message is "Attempted to kill init", so clearly systemd was found and launched successfully but then crashed for some reason. If the disk couldn't be read because of filesystem corruption, he would have had that other message about init not being found.

We have established that the crash occurred before the journal could be written out, so no information is available from there. A fsck carried out from the live installation image found nothing untoward on the disk.

Now if that had been a sysvinit distro, he could simply boot into a shell and test out the scripts and find out if there was a blockage somewhere. That's certainly what I would do in Slackware or LFS. But what the heck do you do if systemd crashes?
I think that this particular OP got a corrupted operating system, because of a faulty hard drive.

Those "linux error reading block inode force rewrite" messages from the fsck announces its intention to write zeroes on particular sectors from this hard drive, overriding the content from whatever files.

I believe that the best way is to reinstall the operating system, after replacing this faulty hard drive.

At least, this way I did myself, after having a corrupted Slackware installation in a faulty hard drive.

Yes, also Slackware (or any other operating system) could be put down in a similar way with the one described in that thread, no matter which init system is used.

Last edited by ZhaoLin1457; 08-25-2019 at 11:16 AM.
 
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Old 08-25-2019, 12:40 PM   #369
ivandi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
Slackware has been described as the distribution of the "cyber-luddite", and such people are way more trustful of long-tested, stable technology.
I just finished another CRUX installation and that reminded me of this statement. Actually CRUX is a "cyber-luddite's" distribution, not Slackware. Slackware users want the latest Plasma, but without systemd. They resemble more a bunch of "grumpy old men" than "cyber-luddites"


Cheers
 
Old 08-25-2019, 12:45 PM   #370
hazel
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I've always liked Crux. I used it for years. And it is very similar to Slackware in its philosophy. But it is source based, and building from source is becoming more and more difficult with things like rust increasingly being necessary. That's why I reluctantly gave it up.

As far as choice of software is concerned, the basic idea is that the official repos contain only simple packages (so no big DE's) but there are private repos that provide those.
 
Old 08-25-2019, 01:02 PM   #371
ZhaoLin1457
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Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I've always liked Crux. I used it for years. And it is very similar to Slackware in its philosophy. But it is source based, and building from source is becoming more and more difficult with things like rust increasingly being necessary. That's why I reluctantly gave it up.
Excuse me, but CRUX Linux uses binary packages and have, just like the Slackware, a packages management, see: https://crux.nu/Main/Handbook3-5#ntoc13
 
Old 08-25-2019, 01:10 PM   #372
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZhaoLin1457 View Post
Excuse me, but CRUX Linux uses binary packages and have, just like the Slackware, a packages management, see: https://crux.nu/Main/Handbook3-5#ntoc13
No, you've misunderstood the handbook. Crux has a package management system like any other distro, complete with dependency resolution (though it doesn't have a central dependency database like Debian), but the packages come down the line as source code and are built locally in a completely automated fashion. In that respect it's very like Gentoo. The difference is that Gentoo has bleeding edge software and aims to provide users with the highest degree of choice, whereas Crux has stable software and aims at simplicity of structure.
 
Old 08-25-2019, 01:11 PM   #373
upnort
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Hey ivandi, please consider updating your profile list of distros to include spaces. Without the space the formatting of threads are disjointed. Some of us don't have monitors as big as a TV.

AS IS:
CRUX,Tumbleweed,Fedora,Slackware64-current

CHANGE TO:
CRUX, Tumbleweed, Fedora, Slackware64-current

Thanks!
 
Old 08-25-2019, 01:20 PM   #374
abga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivandi View Post
I just finished another CRUX installation and that reminded me of this statement. Actually CRUX is a "cyber-luddite's" distribution, not Slackware. Slackware users want the latest Plasma, but without systemd. They resemble more a bunch of "grumpy old men" than "cyber-luddites"


Cheers
It's the second time in this thread you falsely generalize and suggest Slackware users are somewhat retarded. While I don't find any value in your posts, considering to add you to the ignore list, I'm trying to be a little empathic with you and your suffering: please try not to judge the world based on your condition, seek professional help instead.

/ignore

Last edited by abga; 08-25-2019 at 01:57 PM.
 
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Old 08-25-2019, 01:21 PM   #375
ZhaoLin1457
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Originally Posted by hazel View Post
No, you've misunderstood the handbook.
I am afraid that I understand quite well the CRUX handbook.

And I have just downloaded the ISO of latest CRUX 3.5 to be sure that nothing changed since I used CRUX, then I found in the installation kit those usual CRUX packages with the extension "pkg.tar.xz"

True, they ships an ISO with the dimensions of a CD, and CRUX itself is really minimalist - or how @ivandi said, made for the real cyber-Luddites.

Last edited by ZhaoLin1457; 08-25-2019 at 01:27 PM.
 
  


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