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Old 08-24-2019, 04:14 AM   #346
zeebra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Systemd is not the equivalent of heroin. People are free to choose it or not choose it with no pain, no blatant loss or gain.
I never said it was, I've said systemd is the tyrant.

Sorry about the overly weird metaphor.
 
Old 08-24-2019, 04:19 AM   #347
zeebra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitest View Post
Exactly. Use whatever OS or init system that meets your needs. Live and let live.
It seems that this topic is akin to politics and religion. People really get fired up about this issue.
I guess it splits the people into those who understand the fundamentals of GNU/Linux including the freedom and choice aspect, and those who don't or don't care.

It is politics as well, and even religion for some. But "do one thing and do it well" IS POLITICAL, it's not inherent to code projects, it's the politics of GNU/Linux, and so is choice, it's policy. Both with long history and tradition in the GNU/Linux environment. That's just an example, but there are many policies deeply ingrained into the GNU/Linux environment (/people) and it's history and traditions.

Someone with a blatant lack of respect for all that, is causing issues, so it's natural to discuss systemd on a "political level", because it's highly political.

Last edited by zeebra; 08-24-2019 at 04:21 AM.
 
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Old 08-24-2019, 07:45 AM   #348
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivandi View Post
If Slackware ships systemd tomorrow the wannabe geeks wont even notice. They blindly run slackpkg anyway. The fanatics will instantly change their tune because BOB told them so and will prize "Slackware's systemd - the best in the world". And the few remaining Linux users will use the skills they already have.
I disagree, pretty much everyone who uses Slackware would notice. It would be clear from boot, and it would be clear from how certain hardware drivers were or weren't loaded [emphasis on "weren't" for me]. More to the point, maybe you want to flag if people would care. I think they would, primarily because Slackware appeals to the kind of person who appreciates older technological principles and to the kind of person who is inherently, as a result, suspicious of newer technologies unless proven harmless and under control of the user.

systemd has not been proven harmless, neither have the intentions of its developer[s]. If anything, there is more reason to be suspicious of systemd than not. Slackware has been described as the distribution of the "cyber-luddite", and such people are way more trustful of long-tested, stable technology. Remember that each distro is not a mere distro but a mindset and an ethic, and for systemd to be integrated into Slackware would be to change the very ethos of the distribution. If Slackware were going to adopt systemd, it may as well call itself something else, because it would effectively be like having HRT, changing its gender and 'identifying' as another distribution. But this is all academic seeing as Eric has already said recently that there is "no need" to adopt systemd in Slackware.

Slackware is very good at remaining true to itself, and that's one of the things that makes it so long-lasting and healthy. And that's a lesson that goes beyond just computing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivandi View Post
The hard truth is that unless you come up with better code systemd is here to stay.
You are absolutely correct on this, and if it weren't systemd it would be something similar. Poettering just got there first. Something like systemd was inevitable because it's a human trait to make technology increasingly controlling. It doesn't mean that such technology has to be adopted by everyone.

Last edited by Lysander666; 08-24-2019 at 07:50 AM.
 
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Old 08-24-2019, 01:05 PM   #349
blancamolinos
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Knoppix abandons systemd

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tec...andon-systemd/
 
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Old 08-24-2019, 01:21 PM   #350
hazel
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I didn't even know they used it. I haven't used Knoppix in donkey's years but I have fond memories of it. My first Linux (Red Hat 6) was so messed up by the friend who installed it for me that it was completely unbootable. So he gave me a Knoppix CD to use to straighten things out, which turned out to be easier than I expected. In those days Knoppix was probably the only live distro around.
 
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Old 08-24-2019, 02:17 PM   #351
philanc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
(...) So he gave me a Knoppix CD to use to straighten things out, which turned out to be easier than I expected. In those days Knoppix was probably the only live distro around.
Here, the best known live distro is Alien Bob's Slackware Live Edition!! :-)

It is still actively maintained (latest is dated 2019-07-13) and closely follows Slackware current (an easy way to test Current on any PC). It provides persistence, optionally encrypted.

To the best of my knowledge, it was the first to use the regular kernel "OverlayFS" union filesystem, instead of aufs which is used in many live distros (including Knoppix?)

See doc at
https://alien.slackbook.org/blog/sla...-live-edition/


Download at
http://bear.alienbase.nl/mirrors/slackware-live/

Please Eric correct these links if they are not the preferred ones (especially the doc which points to a page dated Nov 2015 -- is it still the good one?)
 
Old 08-24-2019, 02:22 PM   #352
hitest
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
Slackware is very good at remaining true to itself, and that's one of the things that makes it so long-lasting and healthy. And that's a lesson that goes beyond just computing.
Indeed! I've been a Slacker since 2004(version 10.0). Patrick continues to keep Slackware simple, robust and secure.
Praise Bob.
 
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:34 PM   #353
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivandi View Post
This thread resembles the reports my wife writes for the government. Somehow she is able to write pages without saying anything. And they like it.
If Slackware ships systemd tomorrow the wannabe geeks wont even notice. They blindly run slackpkg anyway. The fanatics will instantly change their tune because BOB told them so and will prize "Slackware's systemd - the best in the world". And the few remaining Linux users will use the skills they already have.


Cheers
Good to see the Slackware threads are still your catnip.
 
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:40 PM   #354
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
I disagree, pretty much everyone who uses Slackware would notice. It would be clear from boot, and it would be clear from how certain hardware drivers were or weren't loaded [emphasis on "weren't" for me]. More to the point, maybe you want to flag if people would care. I think they would, primarily because Slackware appeals to the kind of person who appreciates older technological principles and to the kind of person who is inherently, as a result, suspicious of newer technologies unless proven harmless and under control of the user.

systemd has not been proven harmless, neither have the intentions of its developer[s]. If anything, there is more reason to be suspicious of systemd than not. Slackware has been described as the distribution of the "cyber-luddite", and such people are way more trustful of long-tested, stable technology. Remember that each distro is not a mere distro but a mindset and an ethic, and for systemd to be integrated into Slackware would be to change the very ethos of the distribution. If Slackware were going to adopt systemd, it may as well call itself something else, because it would effectively be like having HRT, changing its gender and 'identifying' as another distribution. But this is all academic seeing as Eric has already said recently that there is "no need" to adopt systemd in Slackware.

Slackware is very good at remaining true to itself, and that's one of the things that makes it so long-lasting and healthy. And that's a lesson that goes beyond just computing.



You are absolutely correct on this, and if it weren't systemd it would be something similar. Poettering just got there first. Something like systemd was inevitable because it's a human trait to make technology increasingly controlling. It doesn't mean that such technology has to be adopted by everyone.
Great points, it's more likely the people who blindly accepted systemd are of the group/crowd mentality of ...I turn on the computer and use what loads. Or on many computers I wake up the device and use whats there. Those who are against/apprehensive/suspicious etc... of systemd are usually the ones who like to dig deeper and understand more.

Two very good reads on group think:

Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds
https://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary.../dp/051788433X

The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/04...t_bibl_vppi_i0
 
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Old 08-24-2019, 07:30 PM   #355
upnort
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Quote:
Two very good reads on group think:
Not to forget the classic The True Believer by Eric Hoffer.
 
Old 08-24-2019, 09:20 PM   #356
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivandi View Post
The hard truth is that unless you come up with better code systemd is here to stay.
My use cases show no need for systemd. I don't have any of the "perceived problems" which systemd supposedly fixes... and it's cosy in my basement.

With that said, people smarter than me are working on this problem:
Quote:
Originally Posted by blancamolinos
Thank you for posting this blancamolinos!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus Knopper
"This bypasses systemd's interference with many system components and reduces the complexity of the overall system."
I love it! Knoppix was part of my toolbox for a very long time (until I discovered Alien Bob's live Slackware versions). I'm off to download Knoppix 8.6 right now. Don't fret AB. Your Slackware live distro will still be my #1!

@enorbet The answers to your questions will likely be found by reading/listening to the opinions of a distributor who packaged systemd for 5 years before finding effective ways to remove it from his Debian based distribution:
http://www.linux-magazine.com/Issues...moving-systemd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDXsw2ijRkw&t=17m06s
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666
Slackware is very good at remaining true to itself, and that's one of the things that makes it so long-lasting and healthy. And that's a lesson that goes beyond just computing.
Well said Lysander.

Last edited by rkelsen; 08-24-2019 at 09:57 PM.
 
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Old 08-24-2019, 10:54 PM   #357
ivandi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
Slackware is very good at remaining true to itself, and that's one of the things that makes it so long-lasting and healthy. And that's a lesson that goes beyond just computing.
So far the low number of "cyber-luddites" supporting the project teaches the lesson that usability is more valuable than philosophy.


Cheers.
 
Old 08-24-2019, 11:32 PM   #358
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Corleone
Just when I thought I was out they pull me right back in!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
@enorbet The answers to your questions will likely be found by reading/listening to the opinions of a distributor who packaged systemd for 5 years before finding effective ways to remove it from his Debian based distribution:
http://www.linux-magazine.com/Issues...moving-systemd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDXsw2ijRkw&t=17m06s
Thanks for the links but I was already familiar with the nightmare on Debian of installing no-systemd.deb and removing systemd. I just didn't know enough to fix the nightmare and gave up in disgust.

Creating this thread did lead me to some newer videos and papers that have clarified for me that systemd has very little to do with SOHO Desktop, which is apparently why the only plus I've ever witnessed, and even then only on some systems with some hardware, is the oft quoted but rarely realized "faster boot times" which I don't give a hoot about anyway.

Enterprise Server Administration however does seem to have a longer list of benefits to enjoy from systemd, which is beginning to get through to me more of why the switch to systemd was nearly universal and so sudden. Just as most schools require a uniform program if not also the underlying system upon which it was developed so that a teacher/professor does not have to convert to a format that each and every individual student prefers, Enterprise values uniformity. They always have, even to ridiculous degrees. (Aside: I read that IBM employees were once "called up on the carpet" for not wearing garters on their approved socks! ) Apart from the ridiculous there is the consonant advantages of system-wide upgrades and improved security on every single workstation accomplished extremely quickly. I have to admit that this is not trivial nor is it the end of the benefits to Enterprise.

I'm no longer even a candidate for really large business systems, so I don't really "have a dog in that race". The largest system I ever admin'd was just under 200 workstations and these days I'm down to roughly a dozen since I'm all but fully retired.

Anyway judging from the gist of this thread and the reception, or lack thereof, of the original video here's one that gets a lot more specific about the value to Enterprise. Maybe 1 or 2 will actually watch it.

--- Systemd - The Good Parts ---
 
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Old 08-25-2019, 12:07 AM   #359
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Thanks for the links but I was already familiar with the nightmare on Debian of installing no-systemd.deb and removing systemd. I just didn't know enough to fix the nightmare and gave up in disgust.
That wasn't really the point. It was more to give you his reasons for making the change, rather than the difficulties he faced... which is why the Youtube link starts 17 minutes in... that's the part of the video where he gives his reasons for switching away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Creating this thread did lead me to some newer videos and papers that have clarified for me that systemd has very little to do with SOHO Desktop, which is apparently why the only plus I've ever witnessed, and even then only on some systems with some hardware, is the oft quoted but rarely realized "faster boot times" which I don't give a hoot about anyway.
Strangely enough, slow boot times on real hardware was one of Mr. Knopper's reasons for removing systemd.

Last edited by rkelsen; 08-25-2019 at 12:10 AM.
 
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Old 08-25-2019, 12:26 AM   #360
abga
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I could tolerate systemd if it would have been developed as an opt-in framework, I'd opt out and don't bother.
Speaking of its development, initiated and mainly dictated/driven by that failed endeavor (sold out), what was the name? RedHat..., I put systemd in the same boat with pulseaudio, same non-transparency, low quality code and bad documentation.

As for features, I watched half of the video enorbert posted "--- Systemd - The Good Parts --- " , got bored and stopped, couldn't find anything interesting, other than the dbus stuff (really useful?), nothing you couldn't easily resolve with some basic bash scripting.
 
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