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Old 08-16-2019, 11:27 AM   #256
khronosschoty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bifferos View Post
- Lack of integrated X support.
- Lack of single, decent package manager that works (Brew is *not* that)
- Stupid version of LibreSSL, without any of the optimisations compiled in, that doesn't do everything OpenSSL does.
- Ancient version of Python, even on Mojave.
- No properly supported TAP device.
- Weird problems with otherwise perfectly useful programs, e.g. socat "Operation not supported on socket" from certain argument combos
- Tar files riddled with extra MacOS related nonsense unless you use obscure options to avoid it.
- Different programs/systems using different ways to resolve DNS addresses.

To name but a few.
I haven't experienced all of those issues; but I'm aware of most of them, in some shape or other. I don't ever intend on wasting anymore of my life trying out OS X or an Mac OS. Like I said its nice in ways, but over all its negatives, negate the few nice things about it.
 
Old 08-16-2019, 12:07 PM   #257
Gerard Lally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khronosschoty View Post
In a lot of ways OS X (MacOS) is a nice OS; it has problems for sure -- its main ones (in my opinion) are: its not open enough, it appears from my limited perspective to be intentionally designed so that some of what is open is practically unusable anywhere beyond Apples own defined wall. All that said, some of what they have open has been useful to many of us. I'm not endorsing them by any means; I think the negatives, negate the positives; despite this, however, I acknowledge some of the things it does right.
I think in most cases it's the apps that make the OS. MacOS has great apps. So does iOS. So does Linux. And so does Windows. But in each of these cases the OS is going downhill. Linux isn't even going backwards, which would be an improvement.
 
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:14 PM   #258
jakedp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
jakedp, while you're lucky I've even giving your post #229 any further response, and again, I don't intend on continuing with this discussion given the way the thread is going...

A few things:

2. I make up my own mind based on the experiences I have with the software concerned, and I will not be "just believing" what others say (for or against). I certainly will not be confusing opinions with facts.

3. My point about the "UNIX way" was this: UNIX was an advanced system and quite a revolutionary system for it's time. There are no more "pure UNIX's" left in the world - it's either Linux or one of the BSD's. The BSD's are far closer to pure UNIX than Linux has ever been. systemd is very much Linux software, and is not used in the BSD's, and likely never will be. There also seems to be different ideas about what the "UNIX way" means to different people. One person might say systemd is counter to the "UNIX way", and others (like systemd's own developers) clearly have different ideas - I'm not going to debate with you which "version" of that is correct and which isn't BTW. UNIX itself is dead, and has been for many years, if not decades now. So again, I've not heard any clear (or good) reason as to why, and given the above, Linux distro's are obligated to follow whatever you wish to describe as the "UNIX way". And again, my point of view is that Linux is about choice, indeed "free software" is about choice. It's your choice not to like systemd, fair enough, each to their own, fine. It's my choice not to be a fan anymore than a hater of it.

I'd also suggest that if people find your "directness" rude, then perhaps you should try and make your points in a more respectful manner - that doesn't mean you have to agree with them either. As there is actually a difference between being "direct" and being "rude" - it's called "playing the ball, not the man". And most people in this thread, even those opposed to systemd have made some very good points, and in a very respectful, and intelligent manner too - so I was referring to your comments, not anyone else's comments. And no, I've got no interest in debating that with you either.

That's all I have to say about this subject, happy debating.

0. Lucky? How? How many times has it to be repeated that someone else' s experience is not an opinion and because it is an experience it is a fact. Even if it disagrees with your opinion.



1. If unix is dead then I wonder how the NetBSD, and OpenBSD projects are still going strong. Or AIX. Now luck is you not having trouble with an init, you always do if you use an OS to it' s full. How someone has not had trouble with systemd is beyond me, but maybe you think what is a problem is not a problem for you. <shrug>



2. You have never played the sports have you? Of course you play the man and not the ball, wether it is football, hockey, soccer. After you play the position, you play your position first. It was a comment is all and not going to be brow beaten into submission as Linus was. When I made it I was thinking of the couple of years I spent on and off reading unix history and old mailing lists from the 90s. My manner is quite mild compared to some of the flame wars and was fun to read. Now it is boring and any technical arguments quickly turn into a woman' s circle of not saying what you think and everybody minding everybody else' s business on how they should think or talk.
 
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Old 08-16-2019, 02:33 PM   #259
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
Well, I don't know what you expected. The same old tired arguments from both sides are always presented in these threads.

The only way to find out if it can work for you is to try it. Download a distro that comes with it and install it in a VM.

Good luck.
I fully grasp how it is possible that you or anyone didn't read through the thread but with all due respect this isn't and doesn't have to be the case. I have already tried distros with systemd over nearly a decade (not my main though) to see what the fuss was all about and it seems a tempest in a teapot - it works but nothing much is even different, let alone better and there is a not minor learning curve for means, procedures and naming conventions for what feels like no gain.

My expectations were/ are that after a decade of actual experience there really is zero need for The Soapbox and chest-beating. It serves no purpose whatsoever since it obviously didn't fall flat on it's face, those distros that adopted systemd still use it and those that don't still get along just fine. In viewing the video I linked in the original post there were benefits listed I'd never heard before and didn't fully understand who benefited and for what use case. All I expected was to hear from people who have more experience and perhaps a better, or at least different, code base than me. I frankly don't understand the passionate fervor (and with little or no experience/evidence) some have demonstrated after nearly 10 years.

I am sincerely disappointed in over half of the responses and if I could lock or close the thread I would.

Last edited by enorbet; 08-16-2019 at 02:38 PM.
 
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Old 08-16-2019, 03:32 PM   #260
bifferos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I am sincerely disappointed in over half of the responses and if I could lock or close the thread I would.
If someone does lock this thread can we have a poll?

"Will you continue to use Slackware after it moves to systemd?"

I'd genuinely like to know the answer. Because if most people will quit then that's decided, and no more discussion of the merits of systemd required
 
Old 08-16-2019, 03:33 PM   #261
Skaperen
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i'm now making use of Xubuntu 18.04 LTS as my main desktop on a laptop. i still love hacking around with Slackware, but these days, in my retirement from the mess others call "IT", it is more convenient to do it in a VM.

systemd seems to work when i leave my hands off of it. and i still need to use them to eat so i leave them off. the one issue i have had with systemd is that it totally confuses me when i try to diagnose why something isn't working right, which i try to do before asking for help online.

but one thing has not happened. Slackware and OpenBSD have not failed in their respective virtual machines.

now, you can close the thread.
 
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Old 08-16-2019, 04:32 PM   #262
LuckyCyborg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bifferos View Post
If someone does lock this thread can we have a poll?

"Will you continue to use Slackware after it moves to systemd?"

I'd genuinely like to know the answer. Because if most people will quit then that's decided, and no more discussion of the merits of systemd required
First of all, I do not think that this forum represents a consistent share of the Slackware users. It will be very sad that "the Slackware community" to be formed just from those around 150 forum members who visit periodically this site, and who usually vote in polls. However, from what I know, those 150 users may represent no more than 1% - if not much less, from the real number of Slackware users on the World.

For example:

how many Russians are here? I can count them on the fingers from a single hand, but I believe that only in Russia are tens of thousands those who use Slackware.
how many Romanians are here? Was the long term forum member Darth Vader and I noticed another Romanian in the near past. But I believe that only in Romania are tens of thousands those who use Slackware.
how many French are there? Did you really believe that Mr. Spaier and Mr. Novak are the only people using or used Slackware in France?

And I can continue worth of several pages...

In few words, I think that those 150 (including me) represents an insignificant count, compared with the real dimensions of Slackware community. And even everybody here will quit from a reason or other, nothing will happen. Most likely, another fresh wave of forum users will come around, attracted by the privilege of direct talking with the important members of Slackware team, and even with The Man.

So, what will happen if Slackware will adopt systemd? Honestly, I believe that nothing will happen.

Probably we will see some dramatic quits with theatrical goodbyes, and the Debian refugees will tuck their tail between legs and ran away to another systemd free place - and I think this may be in the end a good thing, because they did a real nasty thing to this community, driving away seasoned and experienced members, while returning almost nothing back excluding "politics" and the Debianish way to silent the "incommode" members reporting them to moderators. In campaigns.

In the end, I think nothing will happen in this forum and in the whole community.

However, I believe that much bigger issues probably will be generated right on the Slackware team by the fact that an important member and heavy lifter who is Mr. Hameleers is also a confessed systemd hater.

Certainly, we will see what position will adopt Mr. Hameleers in the eventuality that Slackware will adopt systemd.

Last edited by LuckyCyborg; 08-16-2019 at 04:50 PM.
 
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:07 PM   #263
bifferos
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First you make the perhaps reasonable point that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
I do not think that this forum represents a consistent share of the Slackware users
And then later you say:

Quote:
So, what will happen if Slackware will adopt systemd? Honestly, I believe that nothing will happen.
On the one hand you're happy to state your opinion as if it's significant whilst at the same time dismissing the idea of a poll.

Quote:
.... Mr. Hameleers is also a confessed systemd hater.
Can I have some references for this?

Quote:
Certainly, we will see what position will adopt Mr. Hameleers in the eventuality that Slackware will adopt systemd.
I don't believe we will, since Slackware will not be using it. I'm still interested in the poll result. Even if it's limited, that's what every poll is. It's not a vote.
 
Old 08-16-2019, 06:10 PM   #264
fido_dogstoyevsky
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Off topic, but (emphasis mine)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakedp View Post
...You have never played the sports have you? Of course you play the man and not the ball, wether it is football, hockey, soccer...
Only if you want to spend a lot of time in the sin bin. Speaking as an ex player and referee.
 
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:15 PM   #265
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bifferos View Post
I don't believe we will, since Slackware will not be using it.
Sums it up entirely. The whole question of Slackware using systemd any time in the near future amounts to little more than self-gratifying hobbyist debate, nothing more.
 
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:46 PM   #266
crts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
First of all, I do not think that this forum represents a consistent share of the Slackware users. It will be very sad that "the Slackware community" to be formed just from those around 150 forum members who visit periodically this site, and who usually vote in polls.
You do a lot of criticising in your post that this community is not representative for all Slackware users, yet you fail entirely to provide a "better" solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
However, from what I know, those 150 users may represent no more than 1% - if not much less, from the real number of Slackware users on the World.
... I can count them on the fingers from a single hand, but I believe that only in Russia are tens of thousands those who use Slackware.
... But I believe that only in Romania are tens of thousands those who use Slackware.
... Did you really believe that Mr. Spaier and Mr. Novak are the only people using or used Slackware in France?
... I think that those 150 (including me) represents an insignificant count, compared with the real dimensions of Slackware community.
You state that you know that this community is too small to represent all Slackware users but admit several times afterwards that you actually only believe that other users are misrepresented. You present no facts, at all. Such arguments are easily countered:
You can believe whatever you want, I believe you are wrong! If only you would have presented some facts ...

Seriously, though, linuxquestions is mentioned several times on the Slackware website, especially:
Quote:
Thanks to the Slackware team for all the hard work getting 14.2 ready for action! And of course, thanks to all the open source developers upstream, and to the Slackware community on linuxquestions.org for all the help with bug reports, suggestions, and patches. We couldn't have done it without you.
Anyone who wants to get involved with Slackware will navigate to the Slackware's homepage and inevitably find the forum. Everyone is free to register and voice his opinion. If one does not do this then the only conclusion is that he/she is satisfied with the way things are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
... attracted by the privilege of direct talking with the important members of Slackware team, and even with The Man.
Sorry, but that is just nonsense. Every distribution/software development team provides some means to contact the maintainers/developers, e.g. mailing lists, bugtrackers etc. Getting in touch with "important members" or "The Man" is not exclusive to Slackware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
Probably we will see some dramatic quits with theatrical goodbyes, and the Debian refugees will tuck their tail between legs and ran away to another systemd free place ...
You do realize that you are being quite theatrical yourself right now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
And I can continue worth of several pages...
Yeah, if you are going to make the same type of argument like before then you should write an algorithm. Here is some pseudocode:
Code:
Print "I believe that in:"
Print select_random_country()
Print "there are several"
Print pick_one_of('1000s', 'tens of thousands', 'hundredthousands', 'like a gazillion or so')
Print "people that are not represented here."
It will save you a lot of typing and probably prevent Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.
 
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:52 PM   #267
ttk
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Not a poll, but it has been discussed before:

https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...md-4175523380/

The consensus seemed to be that most users trust Patrick's judgment and would continue to use Slackware.

On the other hand, even though most users would continue to use Slackware, I expect there would also be a fork of the distribution which used traditional init (which would be fine -- forked distributions are a sign of a healthy community, IMO).
 
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:09 PM   #268
Richard Cranium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttk View Post
Not a poll, but it has been discussed before:

https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...md-4175523380/

The consensus seemed to be that most users trust Patrick's judgment and would continue to use Slackware.

On the other hand, even though most users would continue to use Slackware, I expect there would also be a fork of the distribution which used traditional init (which would be fine -- forked distributions are a sign of a healthy community, IMO).
Hell, I might retire before/around that happening; I'd try to use S6 in a fork in that case.
 
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:19 AM   #269
allend
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Quote:
First of all, I do not think that this forum represents a consistent share of the Slackware users. It will be very sad that "the Slackware community" to be formed just from those around 150 forum members who visit periodically this site, and who usually vote in polls. However, from what I know, those 150 users may represent no more than 1% - if not much less, from the real number of Slackware users on the World.
From 'cat /etc/os-release'
Code:
SUPPORT_URL="http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/"
BUG_REPORT_URL="http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/"
So, less than 1% need support or need to report bugs.
 
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:30 AM   #270
Didier Spaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allend View Post
So, less than 1% need support or need to report bugs.
If 100% read /etc/os-release, which I wouldn't assume. But probably more read http://www.slackware.com/support/

As the saying goes: small lies, big lies, and statistics.
 
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