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Old 08-10-2019, 05:06 PM   #151
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
If anybody has more questions for me, I've already created a thread where you're welcome to ask them as the OP suggested. 1 reply that was just trolling, 237 views-- You've probably already seen it. The OP asked me to drop this thread and I have, so don't make a liar out of me, I'm done here. Thanks.
Minor correction: I didn't ask you to drop MY thread just stick to systemd if you wish to post in this thread. It's not that I mind M$/Windows bashing since I rather enjoy that myself. It's just that it muddies the waters of the specifics here. Apart from that, thank you for your integrity. I sincerely appreciate it.
 
Old 08-10-2019, 05:13 PM   #152
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZhaoLin1457 View Post
Just an inoffensive question:

this apply also to the people who derogatory calls a well-known RedHat programmer as "Lennart Voldemort" ?
Would you please explain why you find that questionable, let alone offensive? The reason I used that term IN JEST is because so often he is treated as "the one whose name must not be spoken". Sheeesh! It is more a slam against those that resort to such foolishness than against Mr. Poettering. I already pointed out that because of the video I linked in the opening post that my respect for LP has grown, not diminished. So I would assume the exact opposite conclusion of some ad hominem attack.

Last edited by enorbet; 08-10-2019 at 05:19 PM.
 
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Old 08-10-2019, 05:22 PM   #153
freemedia2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Minor correction: I didn't ask you to drop MY thread just stick to systemd if you wish to post in this thread. It's not that I mind M$/Windows bashing since I rather enjoy that myself. It's just that it muddies the waters of the specifics here. Apart from that, thank you for your integrity. I sincerely appreciate it.
Cheers-- sorry about the personal comments. I try to reserve attacks for people I think are being unfair, not simply mistaken or differing in opinion, and even then the risk is always of attacking someone who is merely perceived (or misunderstood) as being unfair-- and that's nobody's fault but my own. Thanks for clarifying.

As an aside I have never personally called Lennart "Voldemort." Saboteur, but not "Voldemort." I have also called him arrogant, which by itself would be irrelevant if it didn't seem to affect everything he does and says, including sabotaging the free software ecosystem (which I suppose is merely a common "opinion" until it is proven conclusively, but I think it has at least reached the point of relevance.) If it weren't for the takeover of systemd, it would not bother me at all that the software is rubbish. People are entitled to write rubbish software, I don't like the way it is foisted on people (which is also debated, but a common opinion again.) It's far more relevant that the software is "less optional" than many of us are accustomed to, before it really even matters that it sucks.

Last edited by freemedia2018; 08-10-2019 at 05:30 PM.
 
Old 08-11-2019, 08:52 AM   #154
chrisVV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GazL View Post
[snip]
My reaction to that code was over-stated, I'll give you that, but I still stand by my belief that it's an ugly style. Again, you are free to disagree, however I'd ask you to disagree sans the personal attacks in future.

Anyway, no one is interested in this argument, especially me, so I'm done arguing with you here.
So, you said "... OMG I just looked at it. The switch statement at 132 has a return statement at the end of every single case in it instead of a break, and then at the end of the function where one should return, it's left implicit. I'd be embarrassed to have written that... There's probably worse in there, I was too traumatised to look any further." When I responded indicating that I disagreed and that "it is likely I would be traumatised by looking at your code (if you actually write any) if that is the standard you go by", you responded that there was "no need to get nasty about it" and you still complain about "personal attacks".

That seems a bit like the boy who returns home from school and says "Mummy, it's not fair, he hit me back".

Anyway, I agree that this has gone past the point of any interest.
 
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:03 AM   #155
Regnad Kcin
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The problem is that there is an increasing amount of software for Linux that requires "systemd" as a dependency.

For me, the concept of a "Dlackware" that patches Slackware so that a Slacker can run systemd requiring software,
perhaps by "spoofing" what ever it is that systemd provides (and the app is looking for) would be a reasonable thing.

However, I have tried Dlackware and was not able to figure out how to make it work, and particularly not with -current,
it seems.

It's not because of what I want, per se, but because of what others whom I want to interact with are doing.

They use Skype, so I need Skype (systemd dependent).

They are outside and inside constantly shifting and mutating firewalls, so I need a "smart VPN" (systemd dependent).

Maybe in the sweet by and by, systemd will fizzle out and no longer be a problem,
but it is a barrier in the nasty now and now.
 
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Old 08-12-2019, 04:34 AM   #156
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
They use Skype, so I need Skype (systemd dependent).
Why not use the web-based client?
 
Old 08-12-2019, 05:26 AM   #157
bifferos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
The problem is that there is an increasing amount of software for Linux that requires "systemd" as a dependency.

For me, the concept of a "Dlackware" that patches Slackware so that a Slacker can run systemd requiring software,
perhaps by "spoofing" what ever it is that systemd provides (and the app is looking for) would be a reasonable thing.
Yes, this is also interesting to me because I've been blocked from using Slackware for some applications due to systemd requirements. It was a question I was going to ask on this thread (until I realised it's getting a bit long). We should focus on practical solutions instead of arguments for or against Poettering/systemd.
 
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Old 08-12-2019, 05:30 AM   #158
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post

They use Skype, so I need Skype (systemd dependent).
Use this script made by ruario, it fools the build into thinking the relevant systemd packages are there. Works perfectly.

https://gist.github.com/ruario/f3ee6...c938732aa31b55
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Old 08-12-2019, 05:53 AM   #159
freemedia2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bifferos View Post
We should focus on practical solutions instead of arguments for or against Poettering/systemd.
The biggest problem systemd really has is the dearth of solutions it leaves in its wake. I think it's by design, on some level (not every level-- even poor Lennart probably doesn't get it, but then he really didn't design it, it's a fanfiction of other corporate init systems) though you can't find practical solutions until you understand the practical problems.

What's the biggest help to systemd and the biggest problem to overcome? IMO it's that people think it's a good thing, because "features." By the time all of that is sorted out, it will have cost 10 years of time that could have really been better spent making things that aren't crap. Giant timesink of a thing, costing years of development. Practical Solution? Focus on alternatives. But then how do you get more people to do that, if the whole thing is (largely speaking) a lie, and people believe it?

"Here's a problem."

"What do you want me to do with it?"

"Fix it."

"I have other things to do, I don't need this and I never did."

"Well, let's focus on practical solutions, not arguments for or against it."

"But that is my practical solution!"

Last edited by freemedia2018; 08-12-2019 at 05:55 AM.
 
Old 08-12-2019, 08:07 AM   #160
bifferos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
"Well, let's focus on practical solutions, not arguments for or against it."

"But that is my practical solution!"
The practical solution is to get your sh*t working with minimal effort. If said effort involves convincing the world to use a different init system then good luck with that. It's going to be easier to fake out systemd to satisfy the needs of commercial installers. The FreeBSD world figured this out with the Linux compatibility layer.

Some of us want to continue using Slackware in a corporate setting instead of just at home. That is becoming increasingly difficult. We can get over the inevitable ridicule from using a distro that hasn't seen an official release in donkey's years, we can also get over the lack of systemd, however the requirement to install certain mandated software can't be argued around. Slackware eventually goes in the bin if it can't keep up and just gets relegated to something we tinker with at home, and that's going to be a terrible shame because it's so damned good at what it does.
 
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:22 AM   #161
ttk
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I've been trying to keep track of software which requires systemd, so that its impact can be observed, tracked and reasoned about in a quantitative way, but it's been hard to find. Mostly I've seen projects with optional support for systemd (like MySQL).

It would help a lot if folks could name the software projects with a systemd dependency. I'll maintain a list in a publicly browsable location.
 
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:32 AM   #162
hazel
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Have a look at the AntiX nonsystemd repository. It contains alternative versions of packages that have systemd dependency in Debian.
 
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:36 AM   #163
ttk
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That's a great idea! Thank you :-)
 
Old 08-12-2019, 12:05 PM   #164
ttk
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Looking through the packages in http://la.mxrepo.com/antix/sid/pool/nosystemd/ just now, most of them do not have a required dependency on systemd; the dependency seems to be in the Debian package metadata, or require a configure flag to add systemd support.

Still, "most" is not "all". I'm downloading all of these packages and will examine their systemd support more closely. If some of them have a hard systemd dependency, finding them will be worth the effort.

What I'd like to do is come up with an automated way to detect systemd dependencies so I can set up a system which just sweeps through GitHub or other upstream sources and compiles reports.

Thanks again for suggesting this approach.
 
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:18 PM   #165
TheRealGrogan
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Since this thread is still going, I recently had a friend in another forum have a kubuntu install blow up during updates because systemd didn't reload.

This is your init program (on some distros it's a copy of, on others it's a symlink to), systemd. Do you really want "init" to have all these dependencies? Mind you a lot of them are inherited, but still:

Code:
grogan@getstuffed ~]$ ls -l /sbin/init
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 Jul 21 01:38 /sbin/init -> ../lib/systemd/systemd

[grogan@getstuffed ~]$ ldd /lib/systemd/systemd
	linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffd509a3000)
	libc.so.6 => /usr/lib/libc.so.6 (0x00007f4b51887000)
	libsystemd-shared-242.so => /usr/lib/systemd/libsystemd-shared-242.so (0x00007f4b515fa000)
	librt.so.1 => /usr/lib/librt.so.1 (0x00007f4b515ef000)
	libseccomp.so.2 => /usr/lib/libseccomp.so.2 (0x00007f4b515a6000)
	libmount.so.1 => /usr/lib/libmount.so.1 (0x00007f4b51546000)
	libpam.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpam.so.0 (0x00007f4b51338000)
	libaudit.so.1 => /usr/lib/libaudit.so.1 (0x00007f4b5130f000)
	libkmod.so.2 => /usr/lib/libkmod.so.2 (0x00007f4b512f6000)
	/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 => /usr/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f4b51bef000)
	libcap.so.2 => /usr/lib/libcap.so.2 (0x00007f4b512ef000)
	libacl.so.1 => /usr/lib/libacl.so.1 (0x00007f4b510e7000)
	libcryptsetup.so.12 => /usr/lib/libcryptsetup.so.12 (0x00007f4b5108d000)
	libgcrypt.so.20 => /usr/lib/libgcrypt.so.20 (0x00007f4b50f6e000)
	libip4tc.so.2 => /usr/lib/libip4tc.so.2 (0x00007f4b50f62000)
	libidn2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libidn2.so.0 (0x00007f4b50f43000)
	liblzma.so.5 => /usr/lib/liblzma.so.5 (0x00007f4b50d1d000)
	liblz4.so.1 => /usr/lib/liblz4.so.1 (0x00007f4b50cfc000)
	libblkid.so.1 => /usr/lib/libblkid.so.1 (0x00007f4b50ca6000)
	libpthread.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007f4b50c85000)
	libdl.so.2 => /usr/lib/libdl.so.2 (0x00007f4b50c7e000)
	libcap-ng.so.0 => /usr/lib/libcap-ng.so.0 (0x00007f4b50a79000)
	libz.so.1 => /usr/lib/libz.so.1 (0x00007f4b50862000)
	libcrypto.so.1.1 => /usr/lib/libcrypto.so.1.1 (0x00007f4b5058e000)
	libattr.so.1 => /usr/lib/libattr.so.1 (0x00007f4b50389000)
	libuuid.so.1 => /usr/lib/libuuid.so.1 (0x00007f4b50380000)
	libdevmapper.so.1.02 => /usr/lib/libdevmapper.so.1.02 (0x00007f4b50326000)
	libgpg-error.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgpg-error.so.0 (0x00007f4b50303000)
	libargon2.so.1 => /usr/lib/libargon2.so.1 (0x00007f4b502f9000)
	libjson-c.so.4 => /usr/lib/libjson-c.so.4 (0x00007f4b502e7000)
	libunistring.so.2 => /usr/lib/libunistring.so.2 (0x00007f4b4ff67000)
	libudev.so.1 => /usr/lib/libudev.so.1 (0x00007f4b4ff3b000)
	libm.so.6 => /usr/lib/libm.so.6 (0x00007f4b4fdf5000)
Contrast this with old fashioned init from good old Slackware:

Code:
[grogan@getstuffed:~]$ ls -l /sbin/init
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 48768 Jun 16 23:08 /sbin/init*
[grogan@getstuffed:~]$ ldd /sbin/init
	linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffcadb5b000)
	libc.so.6 => /lib64/libc.so.6 (0x00007f1c3eb5a000)
	/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f1c3ed74000)
It's impractical to statically link libc these days, so that's a necessary evil, but that's it.

(and by the way, that "usr merge" symlink scheme that most distros are using these days is utterly foolish. Using symlinks like that is very bad practice in my books and I hope Slackware doesn't succumb to that)
 
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