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Old 01-08-2019, 05:06 PM   #16
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
No the latency is not inherent in ALSA. Where did you ever get such a ridiculous notion?
It isn't a ridiculous notion. ALSA runs in software, so it will always have latency issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
As for the next sentence BSD is not a viable alternative for many reasons
I've investigated my options for the day when the init-whose-name-shall-not-be-mentioned is no longer avoidable in Linux. You should too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I like ALSA and you don't and I very much don't like diminishing options
I agree, but this is just history repeating itself. I felt the same way when they deprecated OSS for the chunk of smelly mud they call ALSA. Where was the option there?
 
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Old 01-08-2019, 05:10 PM   #17
rkelsen
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Originally Posted by ttk
So, it's only 14.2 which suffers from the narrow defect of defaulting to PA and requiring some effort to revert everything to ALSA, and 15.0 seems likely to come fairly soon.

This makes it a transient problem, unworthy (IMO) of strenuous complaint. The issue was recognized, a good solution is already developed, and soon it will just be a bad memory.

IMO we should chill out and focus on doing the right thing with what's in front of us....
Sing it brother!


Last edited by rkelsen; 01-08-2019 at 06:53 PM.
 
Old 01-08-2019, 11:54 PM   #18
Richard Cranium
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At some point, applications will stop looking for a fallback from PA. After all, how many applications will work with OSS now?

I'm not claiming that's a good thing, but when you have limited time and/or other resources, you'll focus on what is most likely to work now and support what used to work to the extent that you aren't getting many bug reports over it. Sometime after that, the "this used to work with X" bugs get tagged with WONTFIX.
 
Old 01-09-2019, 04:09 AM   #19
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
It isn't a ridiculous notion. ALSA runs in software, so it will always have latency issues.
Of course all software has some latency but evn on Mt Olympus there are Levels. ALSA is far lower latency than Pulse by an order of magnitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
I've investigated my options for the day when the init-whose-name-shall-not-be-mentioned is no longer avoidable in Linux. You should too.
I prefer to trust that not all of Linux will go that route. I think we saw the massive migration to systemd because of Linux attempting to court newly migrant users and the success that many, starting possibly with Ubuntu, had with that tack. Whatever else Ubuntu is it did massively increase the number of Linux users.

That doesn't change who is at the core of Linux. I don't like the direction that systemd takes Linux but I find Pulse to be far more intrusive. Just as it took less than a year for The Core to provide an easy alternative, I'm actually hoping, and posting in this thread for exactly that reason, that ALSA and Pulse can "come to agreeable terms" since whatever else the fact remains that ALSA works without Pulse but Pulse cannot work without ALSA or something like it. I don't care whether Pulse becomes less mandatory and starts to play nicer with ALSA or something entirely new develops that is more Unix-like and fixes the many issues that exist in the Linux audio system. Pulseaudio has done us what may be an important good by showing everyone that ALSA is missing something important in a mass market. I'm optimistic this will be resolved in a manner that provides an easy default as well as deep power and configurability without one excluding the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
I agree, but this is just history repeating itself. I felt the same way when they deprecated OSS for the chunk of smelly mud they call ALSA. Where was the option there?
This may even lend some credence to my previous statements above. OSS was great because it was very simple but that implied it was also very limited and ALSA became the "go to guy" because it solved that. Pulse showed that ALSA has limitations, too. I'm hoping with enough discussions like we are having here someone(s) with a lot deeper knowledge than I have will learn from this history and make the next step.
 
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Old 01-09-2019, 04:25 AM   #20
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
At some point, applications will stop looking for a fallback from PA. After all, how many applications will work with OSS now?

I'm not claiming that's a good thing, but when you have limited time and/or other resources, you'll focus on what is most likely to work now and support what used to work to the extent that you aren't getting many bug reports over it. Sometime after that, the "this used to work with X" bugs get tagged with WONTFIX.
There is an important difference. ALSA was and is capable of completely replacing OSS. Pulse cannot replace ALSA. It does not have direct access to hardware.

This will be a rare exception because I am about to applaud Microsoft for whom I have little but enmity and disregard but I have to give credit where credit is deserved. The big break between MS and IBM came about largely over MS desires to allow some applications to sidestep the premptive operating system and have direct access to hardware. IBM was absolutely horrified at this since OS/2 was being used where vast sums of money and even lives were at stake if a system crashed. This became completely obvious when MS actions to allow direct access resulted in the birth and long-lasting reign of The BSOD. However despite many things I actually hate about Windows and it's development path, they have managed to develop an elegantly simple sound system that does bypass the OpSys providing extreme quality with very low latency and without causing GPFs or BSODs

There's an old adage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by some observant coder
Unix is for people who love computers. Linux is for people who hate Microsoft Windows
I'm hoping and there is some evidence this is actually evolving in this manner, that Linux's raison d'etre has matured enough to become far more than that and that just as Windows owes considerable to FOSS (and Apple damned near everything), perhaps Linux can begin to learn from Windows without the scorn that so often implies. I truly don't want Free Windows, but it is silly to not skim the cream wherever it is found. Frankly I heartily wish fixing the audio system of Linux was on Linus's bucket list, but I'm betting it is on someones.
 
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Old 01-09-2019, 04:48 AM   #21
Didier Spaier
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Please folks, do not compare ALSA and PulseAudio, that's comparing apples and oranges. Let's rememeber that ALSA is part of the kernel, being the core of the Linux Sound Subsystem, cf. https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.15/sound/index.html whereas PulseAudio is a user space application. But you are allowed to compare PulseAudio and JACK, also a user space application. Of course both are useful, they just target different use cases. Obviously both need ALSA.
 
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:29 PM   #22
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
ALSA is far lower latency than Pulse by an order of magnitude.
Right, but OSS ran in the kernel... There was no latency. None. Zip. Nada.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
I prefer to trust that not all of Linux will go that route.
That is blind naivete on your part, my friend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
OSS was great because it was very simple but that implied it was also very limited and ALSA became the "go to guy" because it solved that.
That was not the case at all. If you don't know the history you can't just invent it. OSS was technically superior to ALSA. It was not the first time a technically great technology was removed from (or denied entry to) the Linux kernel for political reasons.
 
Old 01-09-2019, 03:39 PM   #23
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
There's an old adage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by some observant coder
Unix is for people who love computers. Linux is for people who hate Microsoft Windows
That is a great quote.
 
Old 01-09-2019, 04:04 PM   #24
Didier Spaier
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To those who think that big software like PulseAudio provides features hard to use, I remind that Linux is not immune of that tendency. Just type "man capabilities" to see what I mean. As an aside, capabilities are not specified by POSIX. Granted, they can be disabled.

At least SpeechDispatcher tries to restrict itself to features specified by POSIX for the sake of portability, so it can be used e.g. in NetBSD, FreeBSD and also in Mac OSX.

Last edited by Didier Spaier; 01-09-2019 at 04:05 PM.
 
Old 01-09-2019, 04:04 PM   #25
enorbet
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@rkelsen - ALSA runs in the kernel as of 2.5.x which in both cases does not lift them from the throes of latency. They both add to latency, though only slightly. As for knowing the history I lived it in that when I began using Linux it was on a 2.2x kernel... no ALSA.

As for OSS being superior I know some people hated OSS becoming deprecated and blamed ALSA and assumed it was somehow inferior winning out unfairly. That was not the case. Here is a excerpt from Wikipedia on OSS issues and though I care little about Lennart's opinion Paul Davis is one of the most brilliant programmers in the field of Linux sound in the entire world

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia-OSS
OSS both as API and as software has been criticized by some developers, such as Paul Davis and Lennart Poettering.[11][12] Often heard arguments against OSS are: the API is practically impossible to virtualize, it lacks support for modern audio features such as timer-based scheduling or proper surround sound support, inability of its developers to work with the Linux kernel community, lack of integration with modern kernel features such as the device model, too low-level interface, as well as general rejection of its design with moving a lot of signal processing code into the kernel.[citation needed] Most of these criticisms were either specific to the Linux implementation and not to the OSS API itself, or have been addressed in OSS
You like it. That's your choice. With all due respect, I have no interest in it or furthering this discussion with you. The situation of ALSA supplanting OSS is NOT parallel to that of Pulseaudio for several important reasons. If you want to diuscuss those points feel free to start a thread on that subject. I would participate in that but I don't wish to sidetrack this thread anymore than I have already.

Last edited by enorbet; 01-09-2019 at 04:06 PM.
 
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Old 01-09-2019, 05:13 PM   #26
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
As for OSS being superior I know some people hated OSS becoming deprecated and blamed ALSA and assumed it was somehow inferior winning out unfairly. That was not the case.
OSS was removed from the kernel because it's developer tried to make version 4 proprietary. It had nothing to do with features or capabilities.

And while Lennart's opinion of modern-day OSS may be technically correct, it may not have been if OSS had been maintained and continued to be developed within the Linux kernel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
The situation of ALSA supplanting OSS is NOT parallel to that of Pulseaudio for several important reasons.
You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I want the damned freedom and Pulse is one piece trying to diminish that and it makes me sad and angry.
I'll admit that it was me that drew the parallel based upon your comment, and surely you can see why.

Last edited by rkelsen; 01-09-2019 at 06:07 PM.
 
Old 01-10-2019, 12:57 AM   #27
Richard Cranium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
There is an important difference. ALSA was and is capable of completely replacing OSS. Pulse cannot replace ALSA. It does not have direct access to hardware.
That's important to you. That's different than it being important to the software weasels writing/supporting those applications which need access to sound. If a vast majority of those applications don't give a fliegender Fick (I'm sure Google translate got that wrong for any German speakers reading this) about direct access to hardware, then I suspect that you'll end up SOL. I most assuredly could be wrong about that and it would be nice if I were.

The world that should be isn't always the world that is.
 
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:40 AM   #28
enorbet
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@rkelsen - Isn't it possible to use OSS with Pulse? I've never had reason to check, and still don't really, but I'm now curious.

@RichardCranium - <sigh> you could be correct since bureaucracy seems to go viral, often resulting in tumors. If that turns out to be so, then the only choice remaining to me will be a dedicated DAW install sans browser. That's a limitation and inconvenience but with pre-planning or running my laptop simultaneously would be viable nonetheless. Rebooting isn't a huge loss of time. The problem still remains that Pulse not only doesn't play nice with ALSA, it takes over in software what my card can do far more efficiently in firmware and hardware.
 
Old 01-10-2019, 09:56 AM   #29
Gerard Lally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
If a vast majority of those applications don't give a fliegender Fick (I'm sure Google translate got that wrong for any German speakers reading this) ...
fliegende

In the context "gender" just adds to the confusion.
 
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:31 PM   #30
abga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerard Lally View Post
fliegende

In the context "gender" just adds to the confusion.
fliegender because Fick is masculine
Fickerei would actually substitute F*ck better, as the activity, and that is indeed feminine (fliegende).

Hope the mods don't speak German
 
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