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Old 08-09-2018, 10:29 AM   #31
jostber
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Some more suggestions:

- Update this site http://www.slackware.com/about/ with the latest technical information and the web site contributors.

- Publish the written updates from the Changelog to the News site. The existing News information should be renamed to "Releases information" instead.

- Partner with OSDisk to make Distro DVDs, USB sticks and related if the production of this can't be continued with the existing Slackware store, example:

https://www.linuxmint.com/store_cds.php

- Make a more detailed Contributions/Get Involved/Participate site on the web site like the Linux Mint page:

https://www.linuxmint.com/getinvolved.php

- Some of the FAQ pages should also be updated with information that is relevant for the latest Slackware version.

Last edited by jostber; 08-09-2018 at 01:27 PM.
 
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:56 PM   #32
mralk3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
The two are similar, but not the same. I pay homage to Adrien's git repository, he has been tracking -current in git for years and it has been quite useful at times to look back at prior changes.
My own git repository is still young but it attempts to do several things which I found lacking in Adrien's git repository.
I forgot that your git repository now tracks current too. I remember reading something about it some time ago but I guess I didn't bookmark it. Sorry about that!

I like that it not only tracks older releases of Slackware, but also adds tags for each update to -current.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 04:11 PM   #33
cgorac
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It's just today that I actually read all the relevant threads - I noticed the problem mentioned in the change log some time ago, but even this log message haven't shed enough light to the seriousness of issues (was even sort of colored optimistically), so frankly I haven't paid deserved attention...

Overall, I'd say I'm pessimistic. The ongoing buzz will probably generate enough help for Pat to overcome his current issues, but this is not sustainable. And I'm afraid the time is long gone for Slackware to try to get a share on Linux market, I just don't see it used much by anyone else except for its long term users, so in my opinion chances are tiny to build some kind of business model on top of it. So in my opinion, the only possible way to proceed would be to open the development, so that burden is shared between more people, and that Pat could try to find some additional, more stable, source of income. Some good suggestions in that direction are already proposed on this thread: start a Git repo for the project, create mailing lists (frankly, while there are many great people on this forum, there are some others that are just toxic, and for this reason I don't like to come here that often), etc. - it's well known how successful open source projects are managed these days. However, I have also to say that I don't see this happening, Pat just seems like person that has to keep everything under his tight control - I certainly don't blame him for that, as I'm just that kind of person too, but it seems like fact. So I guess we see each other again in this very same situation in couple months or hopefully couple years, and let's just hope that by then enough of us will stay to provide another boost for Pat to keep it rolling.
 
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:41 PM   #34
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgorac View Post
It's just today that I actually read all the relevant threads - I noticed the problem mentioned in the change log some time ago, but even this log message haven't shed enough light to the seriousness of issues (was even sort of colored optimistically), so frankly I haven't paid deserved attention...

Overall, I'd say I'm pessimistic. The ongoing buzz will probably generate enough help for Pat to overcome his current issues, but this is not sustainable. And I'm afraid the time is long gone for Slackware to try to get a share on Linux market, I just don't see it used much by anyone else except for its long term users, so in my opinion chances are tiny to build some kind of business model on top of it. So in my opinion, the only possible way to proceed would be to open the development, so that burden is shared between more people, and that Pat could try to find some additional, more stable, source of income. Some good suggestions in that direction are already proposed on this thread: start a Git repo for the project, create mailing lists (frankly, while there are many great people on this forum, there are some others that are just toxic, and for this reason I don't like to come here that often), etc. - it's well known how successful open source projects are managed these days. However, I have also to say that I don't see this happening, Pat just seems like person that has to keep everything under his tight control - I certainly don't blame him for that, as I'm just that kind of person too, but it seems like fact. So I guess we see each other again in this very same situation in couple months or hopefully couple years, and let's just hope that by then enough of us will stay to provide another boost for Pat to keep it rolling.
Thats a big negative, I know many people who have switched since the unmentionable Pottering fork of Linux a few years ago. I suspect more people will look for and find Slackware as they search for a sane Linux distro..
 
Old 08-09-2018, 04:43 PM   #35
Drakeo
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cgorac
I respectfully Disagree there is a huge market for Slackware. You may need a wide angle lens. Reason I say that is many of us in our mid to late 50's have grown and matured with slackware.
Patrick is not as tight as you think. He has a direction and it works well with the others.
I am unable to find a person that works in Cloud computing Rackspace etc. all over the world that has not embraced the KISS.
When Pat asks for help from the community it isn't a little thing.
We understand his honesty and passion he has put fourth.
When the pipe needs to smoke it will be there. If it became a private stock option to buy. Hundreds of us are ready to be part of it.
Click click.

Last edited by Drakeo; 08-09-2018 at 05:11 PM. Reason: spelling
 
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:37 PM   #36
Alien Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mralk3 View Post
I forgot that your git repository now tracks current too. I remember reading something about it some time ago but I guess I didn't bookmark it. Sorry about that!

I like that it not only tracks older releases of Slackware, but also adds tags for each update to -current.
It also tracks the whole tree, not just ./source
And all .patch.gz and .diff.gz files are unzipped before adding to git. The same is done with the skeleton tarball for the installer, and any _packagename.tar.gz file which is present in a package source directory.
All that makes tracking updates a lot easier.
And yes, every commit has a tag. And that tag is used in a RSS file which is also generated and committed to git. So you can add https://git.slackware.nl/current/plain/ChangeLog.rss to your RSS feed reader of choice and have a very nice way to get the ChangeLog.txt updates pushed to you, accompanied by a URL which brings you straight to the actual git commit.
 
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:11 PM   #37
jostber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jostber View Post
Some more suggestions:

- Update this site http://www.slackware.com/about/ with the latest technical information and the web site contributors.
Some technical and statistics information can be taken from here:

https://server.easycounter.com/slackware.com
https://www.easycounter.com/report/slackware.com
 
Old 08-10-2018, 05:44 AM   #38
cgorac
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Let's hope that I'm wrong and you guys are right, however again I'm not optimistic, I mean the very fact that this ongoing situation happened at all doesn't help to install faith in the whole process...

But let me try to be more constructive. An idea that comes to my mind is to reorganize Slackware packaging, so that Pat takes care on core stuff only, and that some kind of lieutenants get officially appointed to take care of larger, related groups of packages. Like: development tools, network servers, KDE/Xfce/... desktop environments, TeX, etc. This also may help in overcoming the sharp gap between what's in Slackware and what's not. I mean, limiting the size of distribution by the size of DVD nowadays is really meaningless. And while it's true that guys over there at SBo are doing great job, users still have to build packages from source themselves, so why not provide binary packages for everything?

Another domain where I see Slackware could improve a lot is containers. I mean, as soon as starting to ponder Linux for business, one would encounter containers, they are everywhere nowadays. And what we have in Slackware related to containers? We have a SlackBuild for Docker at SBo, and if trying really hard, one can find only one Dockerfile to build Docker container for Slackware at Docker Hub, written by vbatts. So why not make Docker and possibly other containerization platforms (for example, I'm using Singularity, and it's fantastic for scientific computing type of work), part of default Slackware install? Then, why not work on very lean minimal Slackware install, that could be then used to run network servers in containerized environment (this is in line with what I mentioned in my paragraph above)? And also maybe even to try to make Slackware as good as possible for hosting containers, something along the line of what RH is trying to do with Project Atomic?
 
Old 08-10-2018, 06:50 AM   #39
jostber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgorac View Post
Let's hope that I'm wrong and you guys are right, however again I'm not optimistic, I mean the very fact that this ongoing situation happened at all doesn't help to install faith in the whole process...

But let me try to be more constructive. An idea that comes to my mind is to reorganize Slackware packaging, so that Pat takes care on core stuff only, and that some kind of lieutenants get officially appointed to take care of larger, related groups of packages. Like: development tools, network servers, KDE/Xfce/... desktop environments, TeX, etc. This also may help in overcoming the sharp gap between what's in Slackware and what's not. I mean, limiting the size of distribution by the size of DVD nowadays is really meaningless. And while it's true that guys over there at SBo are doing great job, users still have to build packages from source themselves, so why not provide binary packages for everything?

Another domain where I see Slackware could improve a lot is containers. I mean, as soon as starting to ponder Linux for business, one would encounter containers, they are everywhere nowadays. And what we have in Slackware related to containers? We have a SlackBuild for Docker at SBo, and if trying really hard, one can find only one Dockerfile to build Docker container for Slackware at Docker Hub, written by vbatts. So why not make Docker and possibly other containerization platforms (for example, I'm using Singularity, and it's fantastic for scientific computing type of work), part of default Slackware install? Then, why not work on very lean minimal Slackware install, that could be then used to run network servers in containerized environment (this is in line with what I mentioned in my paragraph above)? And also maybe even to try to make Slackware as good as possible for hosting containers, something along the line of what RH is trying to do with Project Atomic?

If you use SBo slackbuilds with sqg you will not have to resolve dependencies or build anything. Just install and go. The same for slackbuilds+. You will not need any binary packages then.

For minimal installations it is very easy to do this in Slackware. Check out these:

http://aboredcoder.com/post/a_easy_m...laptop_install
https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...-a-4175586921/
 
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:03 AM   #40
cgorac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jostber View Post
If you use SBo slackbuilds with sqg you will not have to resolve dependencies or build anything. Just install and go. The same for slackbuilds+. You will not need any binary packages then.

For minimal installations it is very easy to do this in Slackware. Check out these:

http://aboredcoder.com/post/a_easy_m...laptop_install
https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...-a-4175586921/
That was not my point - by now, I know all this, but random newbie doesn't. And for example, under RH-derived distribution, a newbie just need to learn how to add another packages repo, and then yum works with this repo just like with the main repo, and my suggestion is that Slackware "officially" supports something alike. Ditto for minimal install, procedures described on links you provided are all fine, but there is still work required, why not have an option, say "tiny", in Slackware installer that would install bare minimum of packages?

Last edited by cgorac; 08-10-2018 at 07:09 AM.
 
Old 08-10-2018, 07:51 AM   #41
zakame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgorac View Post
That was not my point - by now, I know all this, but random newbie doesn't. And for example, under RH-derived distribution, a newbie just need to learn how to add another packages repo, and then yum works with this repo just like with the main repo, and my suggestion is that Slackware "officially" supports something alike. Ditto for minimal install, procedures described on links you provided are all fine, but there is still work required, why not have an option, say "tiny", in Slackware installer that would install bare minimum of packages?
For Docker, I've attempted a minimal Slackware before as well, and I also learned enough from Vincent Batt's work to make a SlackBuild out of the official static builds for Docker. I don't really have an opinion of whether Docker should be in Slackware or not (might be worth putting in extra/ perhaps,) but at any rate, integration is easy.

What we already have in Slackware though, is LXC; I believe ponce can tell more.
 
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:52 AM   #42
mralk3
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I'm open to suggestions at this point - P.V.

Slackware comes with LXC for containers and has a default minimal template included in all Slackware installations. Please be informed before being critical.

What makes you think that Pat doesn't already have Slackware packaging spliced off into sections and that people aren't already attending to it all?
 
Old 08-10-2018, 08:31 AM   #43
cgorac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mralk3 View Post
Slackware comes with LXC for containers and has a default minimal template included in all Slackware installations. Please be informed before being critical.

What makes you think that Pat doesn't already have Slackware packaging spliced off into sections and that people aren't already attending to it all?

This really pinpoints why I don't like tracking this forum regularly - whenever a suggestion comes to change anything, there will be people popping up claiming that everything is fine, nothing should be changed, that Pat and the rest of the small team know it best, etc. And if an ad hominem remark could be made along the way, even better. Thus, sorry but I see no point to even start discussing with you what makes you think that I'm "uninformed", is there a simple "minimal install" option in Slackware installer or not, do you know about market share of Docker vs. LXC, and so on.

As for Docker itself: Again, if Pat and core team are not interested, and see no value in improving support for containerization in Slackware, that's perfectly fine. It was not my point to say that Slackware must go this way, nor that there is for certain business case for Slackware there. I just suggested that a sustainable option for future may be to find some niche where Slackware could have some market value, to concentrate efforts there, and to try to share burden of ongoing daily maintenance with more people.
 
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:18 PM   #44
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgorac View Post
This really pinpoints why I don't like tracking this forum regularly - whenever a suggestion comes to change anything, there will be people popping up claiming that everything is fine, nothing should be changed, that Pat and the rest of the small team know it best, etc. And if an ad hominem remark could be made along the way, even better. Thus, sorry but I see no point to even start discussing with you what makes you think that I'm "uninformed", is there a simple "minimal install" option in Slackware installer or not, do you know about market share of Docker vs. LXC, and so on.

As for Docker itself: Again, if Pat and core team are not interested, and see no value in improving support for containerization in Slackware, that's perfectly fine. It was not my point to say that Slackware must go this way, nor that there is for certain business case for Slackware there. I just suggested that a sustainable option for future may be to find some niche where Slackware could have some market value, to concentrate efforts there, and to try to share burden of ongoing daily maintenance with more people.
cg, you are trying to pigeon hole Slackware into a distro it is not. Use Slackware for what it provides and how it provides it, otherwise, use something else. Can't be anymore KISS then that. SBo and SlackBuilds is one of the beauties of Slackware, its part of what makes it so modular.
 
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:13 PM   #45
ttk
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As much as cgorac gets wrong, they make good points regarding containerization and Slackware's ill fit with enterprise IT practices.

On one hand, Slackware's architecture makes containerization less necessary. It hearkens back to a time when infrastructure was expected to have a well-defined platform, and applications which needed to run on the infrastructure would be ported to the platform, so that they played nice with everything else.

Slackware is a well-defined platform, which is part and parcel with it being such a fat install. Services which have been ported to Slackware can run together on the same "metal" host, using a common set of libraries and other dependencies, avoiding the releng problems which led the industry to go deep on containerization and virtualization.

On the other hand, it doesn't matter. Corporate IT today expects to deploy infrastructure as single-purpose application servers, as lightweight virtual instances stacked like cordwood on blade servers and backup solutions. That's not going to change just because Slackware offers a better way.

By "stacked like cordwood", I mean a typical appserver instance might have 4GB of RAM and 8GB of filesystem space, total. This means dozens or hundreds of VM backup images can fit in a single Netapp, and migrating VM instances between hosts is very fast.

With instances expected to be tiny, Slackware's fat install is a liability, and puts people off to using it in such environments. While RHEL derivatives are the norm for corporate use, when IT professionals look at alternatives, they are going for super-slim server-oriented linux distributions like Alpine.

If Slackware wishes to play in this space, providing a selection of slimmed-down single-function installations would help a lot.

On the other other hand, I do not think it would be in Patrick's interests (nor that of the wider Slackware community) to take Slackware in this direction. To be a serious contender in the enterprise market, Slackware would need to make a whole raft of other changes which would turn it into something most of its users do not want, and add a lot of work to Patrick's burden for dubious returns.

I say that reluctantly, because I would absolutely love to see Slackware in more widespread use in corporate environments. Its transparency, KISS, flexibility and stability would be tremendous assets, and would make my own professional life easier.

But regardless of what I want, what Patrick needs is ways to revitalize the business he has built around Slackware, and quickly, so he can dig himself out of the financial hole the store's dishonest owners have put him in. Alienating Slackware's existing userbase by turning the distribution into something it is not does not seem like the smartest move right now. (Just IMO!)

Last edited by ttk; 08-10-2018 at 03:51 PM. Reason: oops, misspelled cgorac's nick, fixed
 
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