[SOLVED] How to enable DRI on ATI X700 - Slackware 13.0
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barx@ferrari:~$ glxinfo
name of display: :0.0
display: :0 screen: 0
direct rendering: Yes
server glx vendor string: SGI
server glx version string: 1.2
server glx extensions:
GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap,
GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_MESA_copy_sub_buffer,
GLX_OML_swap_method, GLX_SGI_make_current_read, GLX_SGI_swap_control,
GLX_SGIS_multisample, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group
client glx vendor string: SGI
client glx version string: 1.4
client glx extensions:
GLX_ARB_get_proc_address, GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_EXT_import_context,
GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_MESA_allocate_memory,
GLX_MESA_copy_sub_buffer, GLX_MESA_swap_control,
GLX_MESA_swap_frame_usage, GLX_OML_swap_method, GLX_OML_sync_control,
GLX_SGI_make_current_read, GLX_SGI_swap_control, GLX_SGI_video_sync,
GLX_SGIS_multisample, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, GLX_SGIX_pbuffer,
GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap
GLX version: 1.2
GLX extensions:
GLX_ARB_get_proc_address, GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_EXT_import_context,
GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_OML_swap_method,
GLX_SGIS_multisample, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group
OpenGL vendor string: Mesa Project
OpenGL renderer string: Software Rasterizer
OpenGL version string: 2.1 Mesa 7.5
OpenGL shading language version string: 1.20
OpenGL extensions:
GL_ARB_depth_texture, GL_ARB_draw_buffers, GL_ARB_fragment_program,
GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow, GL_ARB_fragment_shader,
GL_ARB_framebuffer_object, GL_ARB_half_float_pixel, GL_ARB_imaging,
GL_ARB_multisample, GL_ARB_multitexture, GL_ARB_occlusion_query,
GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object, GL_ARB_point_parameters, GL_ARB_point_sprite,
GL_ARB_shader_objects, GL_ARB_shading_language_100,
GL_ARB_shading_language_120, GL_ARB_shadow, GL_ARB_shadow_ambient,
GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp, GL_ARB_texture_compression,
GL_ARB_texture_cube_map, GL_ARB_texture_env_add,
GL_ARB_texture_env_combine, GL_ARB_texture_env_crossbar,
GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3, GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat,
GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two, GL_ARB_texture_rectangle,
GL_ARB_transpose_matrix, GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object,
GL_ARB_vertex_program, GL_ARB_vertex_shader, GL_ARB_window_pos,
GL_EXT_abgr, GL_EXT_bgra, GL_EXT_blend_color,
GL_EXT_blend_equation_separate, GL_EXT_blend_func_separate,
GL_EXT_blend_logic_op, GL_EXT_blend_minmax, GL_EXT_blend_subtract,
GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array, GL_EXT_convolution, GL_EXT_copy_texture,
GL_EXT_depth_bounds_test, GL_EXT_draw_range_elements,
GL_EXT_framebuffer_object, GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit, GL_EXT_fog_coord,
GL_EXT_gpu_program_parameters, GL_EXT_histogram, GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays,
GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil, GL_EXT_packed_pixels,
GL_EXT_paletted_texture, GL_EXT_pixel_buffer_object,
GL_EXT_point_parameters, GL_EXT_polygon_offset, GL_EXT_rescale_normal,
GL_EXT_secondary_color, GL_EXT_separate_specular_color,
GL_EXT_shadow_funcs, GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette,
GL_EXT_stencil_two_side, GL_EXT_stencil_wrap, GL_EXT_subtexture,
GL_EXT_texture, GL_EXT_texture3D, GL_EXT_texture_edge_clamp,
GL_EXT_texture_env_add, GL_EXT_texture_env_combine,
GL_EXT_texture_env_dot3, GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias,
GL_EXT_texture_mirror_clamp, GL_EXT_texture_object,
GL_EXT_texture_rectangle, GL_EXT_texture_sRGB, GL_EXT_texture_swizzle,
GL_EXT_vertex_array, GL_EXT_vertex_array_bgra,
GL_3DFX_texture_compression_FXT1, GL_APPLE_packed_pixels,
GL_APPLE_vertex_array_object, GL_ATI_blend_equation_separate,
GL_ATI_envmap_bumpmap, GL_ATI_texture_env_combine3,
GL_ATI_texture_mirror_once, GL_ATI_fragment_shader,
GL_ATI_separate_stencil, GL_IBM_multimode_draw_arrays,
GL_IBM_rasterpos_clip, GL_IBM_texture_mirrored_repeat,
GL_INGR_blend_func_separate, GL_MESA_pack_invert, GL_MESA_resize_buffers,
GL_MESA_texture_array, GL_MESA_ycbcr_texture, GL_MESA_window_pos,
GL_NV_blend_square, GL_NV_fragment_program, GL_NV_light_max_exponent,
GL_NV_point_sprite, GL_NV_texture_env_combine4, GL_NV_texture_rectangle,
GL_NV_texgen_reflection, GL_NV_vertex_program, GL_NV_vertex_program1_1,
GL_OES_read_format, GL_SGI_color_matrix, GL_SGI_color_table,
GL_SGI_texture_color_table, GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap,
GL_SGIS_texture_border_clamp, GL_SGIS_texture_edge_clamp,
GL_SGIS_texture_lod, GL_SUN_multi_draw_arrays
16 GLX Visuals
visual x bf lv rg d st colorbuffer ax dp st accumbuffer ms cav
id dep cl sp sz l ci b ro r g b a bf th cl r g b a ns b eat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
0x21 24 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x22 24 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x80 24 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x81 24 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x82 24 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x83 24 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x84 24 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x85 24 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x86 24 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x87 24 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x88 24 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x89 24 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x8a 24 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x8b 24 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x8c 24 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x6f 32 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
16 GLXFBConfigs:
visual x bf lv rg d st colorbuffer ax dp st accumbuffer ms cav
id dep cl sp sz l ci b ro r g b a bf th cl r g b a ns b eat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
0x70 0 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x71 0 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x72 0 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x73 0 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x74 0 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x75 0 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x76 0 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x77 0 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x78 0 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x79 0 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x7a 0 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x7b 0 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x7c 0 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x7d 0 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x7e 0 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x7f 0 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
The strange thing is that direct rendering seem to be enabled, but the row "OpenGL renderer string: Software Rasterizer" doesn't sounds good.
In facts, if I run glxgears I get about 90 fps
At the moment I have no xorg.conf file. I tried to create it (using xorgconfig) to try to enable DRI but without success.
I have also tried to use ati drivers, but the last driver version for the X700 is 9.3 that can't be installed on slackware 13.0 (kernel and x.org too recent), and searching on google I have found that radeon open drivers are pretty good, so there's no need for ati drivers
And, if you read my sticky in this forum, you'd know that
Code:
xorgsetup
does a faster, easier job
Give it a shot. Then restart x/reboot, go into X, then post results of
Code:
/var/log/Xorg.0
/etc/X11/xorg.conf
glxinfo
Try reading my sticky. But it seems your card maybe too new for Ati. You maybe out-of-luck until they come up with something. (Another reason why Nvidia rules the Linux Vid world...They keep up on their Linux drivers MUCH better than Ati. Plus, ease of install)
And, if you read my sticky in this forum, you'd know that
Code:
xorgsetup
does a faster, easier job
Give it a shot. Then restart x/reboot, go into X, then post results of
Code:
/var/log/Xorg.0
/etc/X11/xorg.conf
glxinfo
Try reading my sticky. But it seems your card maybe too new for Ati. You maybe out-of-luck until they come up with something. (Another reason why Nvidia rules the Linux Vid world...They keep up on their Linux drivers MUCH better than Ati. Plus, ease of install)
Uhhh.. The x700 has been supported by the open source drivers for years now, so it most certainly is not too new.
In fact, it's been supported for so long, that it should just work out of the box on any up-to-date distribution. The fact that it doesn't work here is very odd.
Oh, and I personally consider 'Xorg -configure' a better method of generating an xorg.conf file :-)
Yeah, update your Mesa package. The one with the default Slackware 13.0 only has glxinfo as a symlink to glinfo. This was corrected after Slackware 13.0 was released and now glxinfo is now included with the Mesa package.
Note: this won't actually enable hardware DRI but it will give you better information output from glxinfo about direct rendering.
Ummm... The version of 'glxinfo' that the OP used is clearly 'glxinfo' and not 'glinfo'. 'glinfo' (or 'glxinfo' from the default Slackware 13 installation) gives completely different output.
Ummm... The version of 'glxinfo' that the OP used is clearly 'glxinfo' and not 'glinfo'. 'glinfo' (or 'glxinfo' from the default Slackware 13 installation) gives completely different output.
The current ATI closed driver (9.9) no longer supports X700. Last closed driver which supports X700 is 9.3 that doesn't install on Slackware 13.0
9.3 drivers requires an older kernel.
So I don't want to install closed driver, I'd like to have the open radeon working
I forgot to say that I'm running slack 13.0 WITH all patches installed (including mesa-7.5-i486-2.txz ) and NOT upgraded to current
In attach you can find there's the Xorg.0.log launching X WITHOUT a xorg.conf file. I wasn't able to paste here because the forum reports it's longer dan 30000 bytes
barx@ferrari:~$ glxinfo
name of display: :0.0
display: :0 screen: 0
direct rendering: Yes
server glx vendor string: SGI
server glx version string: 1.2
server glx extensions:
GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap,
GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_MESA_copy_sub_buffer,
GLX_OML_swap_method, GLX_SGI_make_current_read, GLX_SGI_swap_control,
GLX_SGIS_multisample, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group
client glx vendor string: SGI
client glx version string: 1.4
client glx extensions:
GLX_ARB_get_proc_address, GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_EXT_import_context,
GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_MESA_allocate_memory,
GLX_MESA_copy_sub_buffer, GLX_MESA_swap_control,
GLX_MESA_swap_frame_usage, GLX_OML_swap_method, GLX_OML_sync_control,
GLX_SGI_make_current_read, GLX_SGI_swap_control, GLX_SGI_video_sync,
GLX_SGIS_multisample, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, GLX_SGIX_pbuffer,
GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap
GLX version: 1.2
GLX extensions:
GLX_ARB_get_proc_address, GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_EXT_import_context,
GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_OML_swap_method,
GLX_SGIS_multisample, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group
OpenGL vendor string: Mesa Project
OpenGL renderer string: Software Rasterizer
OpenGL version string: 2.1 Mesa 7.5
OpenGL shading language version string: 1.20
OpenGL extensions:
GL_ARB_depth_texture, GL_ARB_draw_buffers, GL_ARB_fragment_program,
GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow, GL_ARB_fragment_shader,
GL_ARB_framebuffer_object, GL_ARB_half_float_pixel, GL_ARB_imaging,
GL_ARB_multisample, GL_ARB_multitexture, GL_ARB_occlusion_query,
GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object, GL_ARB_point_parameters, GL_ARB_point_sprite,
GL_ARB_shader_objects, GL_ARB_shading_language_100,
GL_ARB_shading_language_120, GL_ARB_shadow, GL_ARB_shadow_ambient,
GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp, GL_ARB_texture_compression,
GL_ARB_texture_cube_map, GL_ARB_texture_env_add,
GL_ARB_texture_env_combine, GL_ARB_texture_env_crossbar,
GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3, GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat,
GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two, GL_ARB_texture_rectangle,
GL_ARB_transpose_matrix, GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object,
GL_ARB_vertex_program, GL_ARB_vertex_shader, GL_ARB_window_pos,
GL_EXT_abgr, GL_EXT_bgra, GL_EXT_blend_color,
GL_EXT_blend_equation_separate, GL_EXT_blend_func_separate,
GL_EXT_blend_logic_op, GL_EXT_blend_minmax, GL_EXT_blend_subtract,
GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array, GL_EXT_convolution, GL_EXT_copy_texture,
GL_EXT_depth_bounds_test, GL_EXT_draw_range_elements,
GL_EXT_framebuffer_object, GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit, GL_EXT_fog_coord,
GL_EXT_gpu_program_parameters, GL_EXT_histogram, GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays,
GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil, GL_EXT_packed_pixels,
GL_EXT_paletted_texture, GL_EXT_pixel_buffer_object,
GL_EXT_point_parameters, GL_EXT_polygon_offset, GL_EXT_rescale_normal,
GL_EXT_secondary_color, GL_EXT_separate_specular_color,
GL_EXT_shadow_funcs, GL_EXT_shared_texture_palette,
GL_EXT_stencil_two_side, GL_EXT_stencil_wrap, GL_EXT_subtexture,
GL_EXT_texture, GL_EXT_texture3D, GL_EXT_texture_edge_clamp,
GL_EXT_texture_env_add, GL_EXT_texture_env_combine,
GL_EXT_texture_env_dot3, GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias,
GL_EXT_texture_mirror_clamp, GL_EXT_texture_object,
GL_EXT_texture_rectangle, GL_EXT_texture_sRGB, GL_EXT_texture_swizzle,
GL_EXT_vertex_array, GL_EXT_vertex_array_bgra,
GL_3DFX_texture_compression_FXT1, GL_APPLE_packed_pixels,
GL_APPLE_vertex_array_object, GL_ATI_blend_equation_separate,
GL_ATI_envmap_bumpmap, GL_ATI_texture_env_combine3,
GL_ATI_texture_mirror_once, GL_ATI_fragment_shader,
GL_ATI_separate_stencil, GL_IBM_multimode_draw_arrays,
GL_IBM_rasterpos_clip, GL_IBM_texture_mirrored_repeat,
GL_INGR_blend_func_separate, GL_MESA_pack_invert, GL_MESA_resize_buffers,
GL_MESA_texture_array, GL_MESA_ycbcr_texture, GL_MESA_window_pos,
GL_NV_blend_square, GL_NV_fragment_program, GL_NV_light_max_exponent,
GL_NV_point_sprite, GL_NV_texture_env_combine4, GL_NV_texture_rectangle,
GL_NV_texgen_reflection, GL_NV_vertex_program, GL_NV_vertex_program1_1,
GL_OES_read_format, GL_SGI_color_matrix, GL_SGI_color_table,
GL_SGI_texture_color_table, GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap,
GL_SGIS_texture_border_clamp, GL_SGIS_texture_edge_clamp,
GL_SGIS_texture_lod, GL_SUN_multi_draw_arrays
16 GLX Visuals
visual x bf lv rg d st colorbuffer ax dp st accumbuffer ms cav
id dep cl sp sz l ci b ro r g b a bf th cl r g b a ns b eat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
0x21 24 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x22 24 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x80 24 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x81 24 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x82 24 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x83 24 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x84 24 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x85 24 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x86 24 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x87 24 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x88 24 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x89 24 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x8a 24 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x8b 24 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x8c 24 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x6f 32 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
16 GLXFBConfigs:
visual x bf lv rg d st colorbuffer ax dp st accumbuffer ms cav
id dep cl sp sz l ci b ro r g b a bf th cl r g b a ns b eat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
0x70 0 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x71 0 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x72 0 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x73 0 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x74 0 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x75 0 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x76 0 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x77 0 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x78 0 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x79 0 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x7a 0 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x7b 0 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 0 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x7c 0 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x7d 0 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
0x7e 0 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 None
0x7f 0 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 24 8 16 16 16 16 0 0 Slow
I don't attach a new Xorg.0.log because it's 100% identical to the previous one
I also tried to generate an xorg.conf file using Xorg -configure ; the generated file (/root/xorg.conf.new) is 100% identical to the one generated by xorgsetup
Looking at your xorg.0.log, seems you have rendering problems with the XAA architecture on your videocard.
Code:
II) RADEON(0): Direct rendering enabled
(II) RADEON(0): XAA Render acceleration unsupported on Radeon 9500/9700 and newer. Please use EXA instead.
(II) RADEON(0): Render acceleration disabled
(II) RADEON(0): num quad-pipes is 2
(II) RADEON(0): Using XFree86 Acceleration Architecture (XAA)
Also I noticed both the ati and vesa modules were unloaded on top of the radeon module. Is that normal? I never used open Radeon drivers before.
EDIT: Try adding this to the device section of your xorg.conf file and see what happens:
Now EXA *seems* to be enabled, Xorg.0.log reports that EXA is active, but glxinfo still reports software rasterizer and running glxgears I get always about 90 fps
Alright, so direct rendering is enabled in the X server. That means this problem must be with Mesa. What is the full output of 'LIBGL_DEBUG=verbose glxinfo' ?
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