I've been reading many posts recently that disappoint me. People seem to be flaming each other more recently than I have ever seen on this forum. This forum has, in the past, been a very nice place for people who are new to Slackware to get insightful and useful information on getting our favorite distro up and running smoothly. That's what I got out of it. And that's what keeps me coming back -- the possibility of using some of the knowledge that I have gained from all of the people here and from just using Slackware every day.

I just don't want to see this forum turn into a place where any new Gnu/Linux user who pokes his face in gets RTFM stuffed into his/her face. Most of these people wouldn't even know what RTFM means. Let's not be cryptic. Just focus on the goals that the Linux community should have -- the conversion of every Windows user to a user of free software.

If you don't agree on this as a goal, that's also your prerogative. Hey, it's a free internet, right? Please do, however, respect those new users. They might, some day, contribute some extremely useful piece of software, documentation, or other information that you won't be able to live without. Even Pat Volkerding was a new user once. (So were you!)

If I'm inviting the flames here, so be it. But, I think, if you're going to be snotty, save it for usenet. You'll have lots of friends there.

I have not been here for long. hence, i have not noticed this
change in mentality you speak of. i am a fellow slackware user,
and have found most of my answers to problems i had in these
forums; i even started some threads of my own, and some of
them were replied to constructively, leading me to salvation.
i agree though; flaming is not a good thing; it wastes time,
causes aggrivation and just plain messes up threads which could
have been something useful.

i somewhat disagree with the focus you mention; converting
users from windows to linux. in my opinion this community is
there to help those who have switched or are thinking of
switching.. perhaps passively helping users switch or convincing
them to do so by hearing success-stories from their linux-using
friends frequenting these forums... not actively pulling windows
users to linux; in my opinion this conversion should go spontain-
iously. when a windows user is ready and has prepared him or
herself for the leap of faith; then they should switch. not
because linux is great or a cool thing to show to friends and
colleagues.

linux might be cool.. but problems caused by people switching
before they know what they are doing and what they want,
are definately not. preparation is very important when switching.
no proper preparation means headaches galore :D and loss of
hair (pulling it out), and such.

so let people switch in their own time. don't help them across
the street unless they tell you they want to cross.

hmm.. and i'm wandering a bit off subject. sorry for that.

i'll hush now.

In my opinion main target of this forum is not to convert people from Windows to Linux, but to help Slackware newbies to solve their probems and make their life easier (you are right, neenee). Personal experience of forum members is sometimes more valuable then all of these "man" and "info" pages.
I really can't understand why many Linux users treats Microsoft and Windows like something worse. In my opinion Windows (I use Windows 2000 and Slackware9 on dual-boot machine) is another OS, in some parts better, in another worse than Linux and it is just personal choice, which one to use for various tasks.
Why these two communities can't live with respect to each other?

i dont like windows alot after i changed but windows is better for games and for newbies so windows is better on games but linux is much better in everything else!!!

cheers

erling

Im not an expert by any standard, but Ive tried to embrace linux as much as possible, and im a smarter person for it.

People come here (and in any other forum) and want the EXACT same thing as windows, but free. They refuse to learn anything new and complain when theres not an easy way to do things.

Every OS is different, and if you dont want to change your habits, dont switch, and dont complain when people say RTFM, people use to yell this at me all the time (and they still do), and ive learned that most of the time that the "FM" will have the answer. Now sometimes, the manual doesnt have the answer, and people seem to be very eager to help you in that case.

Not everyone is like that, ive met a lot of Windows users that spend hundreds of hours learning Linux, and embrace change, and they very quickly learn the basics, and learn that anything is possible and they love Linux for its possibilities.

</rant>

Now how did a post about netiquette turn
into a pro-/contra Windows one? :D

As for the flame-wars that DocGonzo
sees... either you must have a rather thin
skin, or our mods must be insensitive klutzes :}

/me runs in panic...

Serious, I don't think we have a lot of
trouble with flaming, particularly not in
the Slack-forum... or maybe I just happen
never to open any of the threads that
you are referring to.

As for the RTFM: I still believe that our
focus should be similar to Sokrates approach:
help people to help themselves. Not carrying
them to where they want to go but showing them
the way / teaching them to walk.

Again, as Contra pointed out, many of the n00bs
pop straight into the forums, never even bothering
to read the rules of LQ, never considering to try
a search first. I'm certainly not an old timer in terms
of LQ membership, but I've been doing "voluntary
support of software" on FIDO/Internet for over 13
years now, have been an IRC Op, and in my not
so humble opinion the attitude that a majority of
users these days display is absolutely shocking.

I don't see myself as a Linux-Evangelist. I'm not
out there trying to "sell" Linux to people. If someone
asks me about what I use or why I don't use MS
stuff I'll gladly tell them. I am here to help n00bs
to become mature Linux-Users. And I know from
experience that solving the problem for them won't
do that trick. It's about literacy: people might appreciate
me reading them a story every night, but REALLY
they should learn to read ;)

Here, that's my 2 cents ;)

Cheers,
Tink

hmmmm,

Maybe it would be a good idea to put somewhere prominent a link to the page describing how to ask good questions. So many times people ask something that is nigh on impossible for anyone to answer, e.g.

"this doesn't work, how do i fix it !!!!"

I have a feeling that questions that one has to read several times to find a question, that have barely any info in to diagnose problems and people just asking for a quick fix all lead to a flame style response. Slackware is one of those distros which really does rely on one learning linux by youself and RTFM so this forum probably does suffer from this condition the most.

This site has an FAQ but last time I checked there was nothing relating to this matter and its not placed in the most easy to find position. It really should be the first thing one should read before thinking about question. Often, it even helps you solve something since it forces you to go through the motions yourself.

I admit that certain situations call for a short question. If you want a link or don't understand how something works then fine, but the majority of irritating posts are not of this nature.

I shall just go and post something along these lines in the website comments and suggestions forum.

and there's my two pence worth.....

Alex

P.S. Not meaning to be picky but this should be in the 'general' forum not slackware forum...........

I thought that it belonged in the Slackware forun because I was noticing the posts IN the Slackware forum. Just seemed to make sense to me.

As far as RTFM goes, I do agree that reading is the best way to figure stuff out. I have this wonderful book called Linux: The Complete Reference (and I'm sure some of you have seen it). I read as much online documentation as I can. However, there are just some times when you need an actual Person to help you out. I remember, when I was first getting along in Linux, how overwhelming it was. I remember wishing that I could call one of my friends to ask them to show me around a little. And, sometimes, in the quagmire that is the Linux documentation world, it becomes just a little too difficult to find the right, most current documentation. I just think it's good for users to have a positive experience with it the first go around, and that comes from the people who answer questions on this forum as much as it comes from the OS itself.

As far as the evangelism thing goes, that wasn't really how I had meant it. I just meant that we needed to keep everybody who gets curious about it. They will, all of them, eventually have no need for Windows. We can encourage it.

By the way, I have more games able to run on Linux than I have hard drive space and time to play. There are quite a few fun games that run natively (UT2003, for example) and also many games that you can run, DirectX and all, under winex. -- www.transgaming.com -- You can even run MS Office, if you want to, with CrossOver Office. -- www.codeweavers.com --

There really is very little that can't be done on Gnu/Linux these days.

Not everyone is right for switching. I know plenty of people that would have a seisure if faced w/ Linux.

IMO:
Linux - for computer users who enjoy using/fixing computers
Windows - for people who hate computers and use them only as a tool.
OS X - for those l33t bastards.

Well, Doc,

I see your point :) as for the the "friendly
approach" ...

However, I *do* believe that a pointer
on how to seek information or where to
read documentation is more important
than the actual info. I don't believe
in the "cosmic principle of laziness"
as a rule to live your life by. ;)

Maybe we just have a different level
of tolerance towards the lack of will to
find out for yourself....

Anyway, I hope you didn't refer to any
of my posts here as "flaming" ;)

Cheers,
Tink

In my opinion, flaming is an important and, at times entertaining, aspect of any forum or usenet. While I personally prefer to ignore rather than flame, I feel that the prospect of being soundly criticized for not following proper netiquet is what keeps these sites from drowning in useless and repetitive drivel. Keep in mind that every questionable thread on a fast moving board shoves other threads (maybe even yours) off the top page, reducing the effectiveness of the site to those who only have time to scan the first one or two pages of a forum.

I think that this site is as good as it is because of the way the mods and the veteran members step in when needed. And lets face it, some people just don't respond to niceness or subtlety.

Anyway, if you find someone particularly offensive, there's allways the ignore list - PLONK

/me chuckles ... "Good one, Franklin!"

I have to admit that I love the
"challenge" of a nice mud-wrestling
every now and then :}

Specially in the more "philosophical"
threads like "Why is Linux better than
Windows" or "Should Linux be easier to
use for n00bs?" ;)

Cheers,
Tink

I'm with you Tink....I very much like to follow the "teach a man to fish..." approach. Although lately, (maybe its just stress ) I find that I'm losing patience with the people I run into that just want a quick handout (I don't necessarily mean on here tho...because for the most part, I find that the people I've seen DO want to learn)...

But I really can't understand why there's such a HUGE number of people (and usually on their FIRST post) who post up a "Why linux?" thread or "Convince me linux is better than windows" thread...for the love of god WHY??? I mean just a quick peruse of the site shows many many many threads on this.....

Yes, but I mostly attribute those to trolls.

The things that irritate me (and I haven't seen much of these lately) are the threads about "I tried, but I'm going back to windows" or some such.

Like, dude, why are you telling me about it? I can't imagine myself posting on a windows forum how I'm switching to linux. I think when we stop seeing you post we'll get the message.

But, to keep more on topic with the thread (and to agree on some level with the OP here), I do find it a bit inappropriate for someone with like 23 posts to majorly flame someone. I don't care how many years they've used linux before joining the forum. I'm of the opinion that a person needs to do some time before they have the right to throw their weight around - even if they are right. It just makes the flamer look bad.

On the other hand, if someone with 6000+ posts want's to rip me a new one then I'd be honored

Heck, I'd even save it and use it as wall paper

ah h*ll, I had forgotten about those....yeah, those are pretty annoying as well. drama queens what are ya gonna do?