The first Gnome 2.20.1 for Slackware 12.0 is ready to download, from Italian Slackware Community!!http://www.slacky.eu/

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2...hermataqh2.png

The iso is available from torrent! http://gnome.slacky.eu/gnome/12.0/2....1-i686.torrent


Or Ftp!! http://85.42.95.227/mirror/gnomeslk/slackware12.0/

http://slacky.uglyplace.org/repository/gnomeslk/

Download the Iso, run the install.sh script, select your favorite installation!!

Cool!
Here's the full release announcement
http://www.slacky.eu/index.php?optio...k=view&id=2475

By the way, is there any info on which packages are replaced? Or any uninstallation guide?

Yes a little installation guide is inside the iso-image! However this is a list of Slackware 12.0 replaced packages!

I was under the impression that they were all about not being "intrusive". That's a pretty long list for them not to be readily disclosing it. Are you sure it's correct? I get the feeling you're getting some of the details wrong there.

Either way, the claims they make are impossible. You can't have all of GNOME working the way it's supposed to without doing certain things, like upgrading packages Pat can't/won't update, or without adding PAM.

evilDagmar wrote:

I agree on that you have to update some packages from Slackware since up2date GNOME requires some up2date libs... Dropline is doing the same, maybe not that many packages but they also have to replace a few core packages (like GTK 2.12 for GNOME 2.20).

I agree also that the "non intrusive" comment (it's still in the README AFAIK) really make some people think they can install GNOME on Slackware without to replace any other packages.

Talking about PAM it would be nice to know which GNOME tools *really* require PAM. The GNOME Desktop itself works for me without PAM, HAL can automount devices as normal user, you can do admin stuff (add user, turn off services, change date&time) as normal user also, GnomeScreensaver works without PAM (i can lock screen and leave a message).

On the dropline forum i found this:
Well, for automount that is definitly wrong... but feel free to correct me.

I googled for a while and found lots of hints about that topic and how to fix problems with PAM, but no list of services that will not work *CORRECT* if PAM is not installed. One thing i know myself is auto-unlock the gnome-keyring during login using GDM... but that is just some extra comfort. I personally never used the keyring and never used GDM... i prefer KDM. But besides keyring, what else?

Don't get me wrong: If GNOME requires PAM for some useful stuff it might be a good idea to add it, but i'm using GNOME 2.20 (compiled from source) on my Notebook and what i need is working very well...

Please keep also in mind that a lot of people might not want to use GNOME, just some GNOME based applications. Do they really need to install PAM?

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but more info would be nice instead of just say 'certain things in GNOME will not work without PAM'. I'm not trying to start some flamewar about "PAM or not"... i just want to know what me is missing...

DV

P.S. Me is not a GSlacky developer... can't help you on problems related to GSlacky...

...and yet these guys are running off at the mouth about others being intrusive. There's nothing "intrusive" about making things work. The moment you make the decision that no one is ever allowed to replace any Slackware packages, you're no longer working in computer science, you're working in propaganda and dogma.

So, here we come back to the fundamental problem... Folks that don't actually know how things work are trying to pass judgement. I've documented the PAM stuff before, several times in fact, but I'll go over some of it again. I am not inclined to keep answering the same questions over and over and over again just because people can't be bothered to do their own research.

Dropline has PAM because that gets us pam_console functionality, which means when the first user logs in at the console, a few files get created in /var/run/console that indicate who has "ownership" of the console. It also goes around and chowns all the important hardware devices to that user for the duration of them being logged in (and chowns them back when the user logs out). This is more secure than using plugdev and all the group hacks usually going on in /etc/login.defs, especially since they can't actually happen when you're logging in through KDM or XDM.

While GNOME Screensaver might well lock the display without PAM, what it won't do is properly protect your keyring. The keyring functionality is quite tied into PAM now--I even just relinked passwd against PAM to make sure the master keyring password would stay in sync with the user's login password. Why you'd think that the note-leaving capability had anything to do with PAM is beyond me. That's entirely galago-stuff.

You don't have to be in plugdev for automount to work with Dropline. All you have to do is be logged in at the console. Again, this is more secure than the plugdev hack. Furthermore, with Slackware 11.0, that was entirely correct. You'll forgive me if I don't go back and try to fix all the historical forum postings.

Well, that's all nice and special. You don't use it so it doesn't matter. I, on the other hand, do use it because Evolution uses it. Nautilus uses it. Seahorse uses it. Basically, anything that has to handle credentials in GNOME uses it. In the semi-near future, NetworkManager is even likely going to be using it in a way that will require some advanced stuff, which will likely require some OS support, which is likely to happen through PAM. (Specifically, cases where it would make sense for the WEP/WPA keys to be shared among all users)

You're not looking as closely as we are, or using as much of GNOME as we are. (...and you're probably not getting the bug reports from people who want to know why things that should work, don't.)

No, but why should those people hold everyone else back? There's no obligation on us to cater to everyone, and even less of an obligation to make it so that people with no knowledge whatsoever and pick and choose what pieces they want without incident. Furthermore, none of Slackware works like that so why the hell should Dropline have to?

Oh, it's not okay for me to state a simple and undebatable fact, but it is apparently okay to snipe with this "it is teh intrusiv!" nonsense I keep seeing everywhere? From where I sit, it doesn't look like you're asking what you're missing... it looks like you've already made the decisions about that and that you're just looking to make everyone else believe it.

First of all: Thanks for the explanation...

I never liked that sentence... and for sure i would like to see these words go away too...

About your last words: No that is not correct... from what i can see PAM will bring some extra comfort, it will change the ownership of some hardware devices and it may secure the keyring stuff. On a multiuser system i would agree that this might be the better and more secure solution.

I do not wan't to make everyone believe in "PAM is bad" just that it is not really required. It is as optional as HAL is: You can run GNOME without HAL/PAM but you might loose some functionality/security. If you miss these features... get Dropline. If not then you can try something else... pretty simple. From here it looks like Dropline want to make people think "PAM is the only way"... but that is not true. It might be *one* way to get GNOME to work, but it is not the only way. Dropline developers should accept that some people don't want it or don't need it (for some reasons) as you want others to accept that you guys will stay with PAM for some (maybe better) reasons.

I don't have to make any decisions because me is using KDE on the Desktop. I could use GSlacky or Dropline on the mobile Notebook instead of my own source build, for sure i would not see any differences except the Wallpaper and the Icons since i only need a full DE supporting automounting of USB memory and digital cameras. So there is no need to getting rude about me... i'm not voting for any of these two projects.

But thanks again for your comments, they did help me to understand why dropline uses PAM and for what PAM can be used for on GNOME...

DV

P.S. There is no need to blame others work, both projects have pro and cons... let the user decide.

No one's forcing anyone to use Dropline. However, Dropline at least has the tact to not make a selling point of a gratuitous dig at other people's projects. That's not cool. It is rather astonishingly bad for a number of reasons actually.

...and actually, disabling HAL loses a lot of functionality now. Folks might as well just go back to using a 2.2.x kernel as do that.

Someone that's making packages for other people has a responsibility to consider how their work will perform when installed on someone's system--simply declaring that no official packages will be replaced not only creates a desynch (because Pat's upgrade/update policies will not be the same as theirs) that can cause harm and breakage, and is simply abdicating the responsibility of making those complex decisions. If the person making the packages isn't making these decisions, and (we know) the users installing them generally aren't, then for pete's sake who is making these decisions?

No problem.

Yes... that was just an example... i could also name libnotify or avahi... you will loose some functinality without these libs... but GNOME itself may still work

I think we can stop to discuss "simply declaring that no official packages will be replaced" because we both agree on that and i never said something different... Also me is the wrong person to discuss this with since me is not a GSlacky developer nor a GSlacky user

Your comment above also applies to complete projects like GSlacky or Dropline: Don't give users a chance to uncheck options from the installer if this will break other packages that will be installed... The maintainer of the setup/installer must, with your own words, 'consider about how their work will perform when installed on someone's system'. I know this takes a lot of time... but the project developers have some responsibility... you know what i mean.

That is going OffTopic now and worth another story, it has nothing to do with my original question that you have already awnsered. Thx again...

Have a nice day, DV

Thanks for the updated list. As this thread almost became a flamewar, and as it is the second thread in just a few weeks debating on what is "intrusive", it might be a good idea to put this list prominently on the GSlacky website.


And, of course, this is true for GSlacky and Dropline and, in fact, any other project to the same degree!

And I repeat: "Intrusive" is not a synonym for "bad". But in a professional environment it is simply important to know what is changed on a system when new software is installed. Because, as in this case, some important libraries won't be updated according to the update cycle of Slackware. Thus there is an impact on the system management the administrator has to know about.

@evilDagmar: You state that we are not working in computer science, if we consider the replacement of some libraries being "intrusive". Well, in computer *science", ie in an experimental or laboratory environment, your statement is valid. But in a business environment the way your reply can only be regarded immature. Which doesn't increase my faith in the work of the Dropline team, and confirms my decision to stick with KDE for the moment being.

gargamel

You've stated something so oversimplified it no longer resembles the original argument, so I'll simply say I said no such thing as that.

...and I've even less idea what you're talking about with respect to the latter issue. If you want a "professional" response, pay my consulting rate. Otherwise, you get what you pay for. Personally, I think it's just sour grapes.

To clarify an earlier point, I'll point out the distinction everyone seems to conveniently overlook... Whether or not a user is actually at the machine and how this relates to the Principle of Least Privilege. To get automounting to work under plain Slackware, the user must be permanently added to the plugdev group. This means they not only have the ability to get media mounted when they're at the machine, but that they also have the ability to have it mounted when they're not at the machine (because they're not going to insert it from miles away unless they can throw really well). Do they have an explicitly stated need to be able to mount removable media from a great distance away? Of course not--it makes no sense at all.

Now to take things out of the theoretical and into the practical, PAM allows the machine to have an idea of when the user is actually at the console, and allow them things like automatic mounting of removable media then, without also giving them the ability to mount or hijack someone else's media later when they're not at the physical console. Things like this are why you pay attention to the PLIP instead of waiting for the bad guys to find a way to exploit your failure to adhere to it.

All the better!

No, thanks. Really. ;-)



But maybe this is all based on a misunderstanding, so let me ask you one question. If replacing packages "in order to make them work" and thus taking them out of the "official" Slackware maintenance cycle, and adding something that changes the behaviour of a system in important aspects so fundamentally as PAM does, is not intrusive, what would YOU call intrusive, then?

Please, give an example, or help us non-native English speakers to find the right term for what we actually mean by saying "intrusive" or "invasive", ie: Which packages and files are replaced? How should we call this, in order not to drive Dropliners like you nuts?

(And, for the 3rd time: I'm not among those who say "intrusive" and mean "bad"; I understand the reasons for replacing packages. I just want to know which packages and which parts of my systems are affected, BEFORE I install something!)

And finally: You provided some very useful background information in this thread, but you also complain about being asked the very same questions ever again. Well, a time-saving approach for you and all the requesters would be to simply publish this very information on the Dropline homepage. What about documenting it there?

Regards

gargamel

I agree: It would be nice if the setup would tell the user (before the install will begin!) which packages will be replaced by which version... no one is reading the FAQ/README/INSTALL/HOWTO... believe me. BTW: This applies to both projects and i really would like to see a last message box telling me how many packages will be installed, replaced, removed. And some logfiles would be nice also... (about which packages really got touched, maybe the user did not select a full install).

That was why i was asking here for why GNOME requires PAM: I did nowhere find a really good explanation... before Dagmar told me here.

@Dagmar: This should be part of the Dropline-WIKI/FAQ.

To become "OnTopic" again:
@GSlacky-Team:
Why was the "mini" install removed? There were just a few packages missing to get it to work. Now there is only an extended "Basic" GNOME install which is not really "Basic". This way you only can do a "All or nothing"... plus the extra Option.

Anyway: Full install did work, menus did look much better this time then on the previous version.

DV

It does not change the behaviour in anything approaching a significant way. This is why I bitch about people using the word "intrusive" because it's being tossed about as a way to disparage without actually thinking or examining what's going on. People just love to try to look like they know something by condemning something complex that their noob friends can't easily see as a broken thing to be asserting.

Try "advanced", or perhaps "painstakingly assembled", or more to the point "put together with much more effort than any users are ever willing to put out".

So then look before you leap. The installer doesn't hide what it's doing. There's a "view updates" option specifically for people to be able to see a list of which packages are scheduled for replacement.

...because it's already on the Dropline Wiki.

I hope I made it clear that this is not the way I use the term. "Intrusive" is not "broken". To me it simply means, that the "original" is changed, instead of extended. Without a clarifying statement it is purely personal, if you here "broken" or "improved" when I say "changed".

Regarding your point about non-informed users, I won't follow your arguments. It almost seems as if you only want to see computer scientists as Dropline users.
Desktop environments like KDE and (even more) Gnome are mainly there to assist end-users. And end-users usually just want to have fun with their computers or need to get some job done efficiently. With the exception of (real and wannabe) computer scientists they just aren't interested in technical details. They just want a reliable, easy-to-use system with some easily accessible games and office applications. Do you really expect them to dive into the details why or why not they should upgrade stock libraries with Dropline libraries?
It's a fact that Linux becomes more popular among such people these days, and IMHO that's a good thing. Let's be a bit more patient with them. Except you really want only experts to become Dropline users. The question then would be: What for does an expert really need a desktop environment, when the CLI is his/her friend?

[QUOTE]
Try "advanced", or perhaps "painstakingly assembled", or more to the point "put together with much more effort than any users are ever willing to put out".
[\QUOTE]

As I said, I am not a native English speaker, but here it seems that you still take "intrusive" as a synonym for "bad", or "broken" while I use it in its (to my knowledge) original sense: My system will be changed, and I can't rely on "official" Slackware patches. Dropline or GSlacky patches may be just as reliable and good in quality, but it still means that I have to trust in (at least) two sources for patches instead of one. I may or may not get the faith over some time of using Dropline or GSlacky, depending on how well they are maintained. BTW, when I first installed Slackware it was not on my main machines. Only over several years it has become my primary system on all of my machines.

Good! May I suggest, that you provide the relevant hyperlink(s) then, when the next interested user asks the same "stupid" questions, how "advanced" (your suggestion, see above ;-)) Dropline is. BTW, if I had asked this question, would I have received a list of the packages being replaced? If not, it's not a synonym... ;-)

Anyway, I'll try one the two projects in the near future, and wish both of them big popularity and success. Because both of them are admirable community efforts, and it's good that there are people who invest a lot of time and effort in them in order to make the life easier for the rest of us.

Thanks for both your efforts!

gargamel