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Old 07-26-2012, 11:29 PM   #76
dTd
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As well as version issues and picking a repository to get packages. Imagine you find the "uber cool app" package at "Joe's Package Emporium" but it requires a new version of glibc, or Xlib, or Xft. There's a million ways automatic dependency resolving package managers can really mess up your system. Now imagine it's Gnome you're trying to install with it's huge pile of dependencies, but you want the latest beta, or even alpha, and crazy Joe has put up a whole load of packages... meh I can't even think about it anymore. I did this route on a redhat box more times than I want to admit while all along my slackware boxes ran perfectly.
 
Old 07-27-2012, 12:01 AM   #77
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Maybe if automatic dependency resolution is what is wanted, just install VirtualBox on a Slackware host so when ADR borks there's still a machine that works? lol

Just a joke, please don't flame me!
 
Old 07-27-2012, 12:05 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damgar View Post
Maybe if automatic dependency resolution is what is wanted, just install VirtualBox on a Slackware host so when ADR borks there's still a machine that works? lol

Just a joke, please don't flame me!

Damn, beat me to it

Still an advocate for an intelligent and robust system for DR though.

Last edited by vdemuth; 07-27-2012 at 12:20 AM.
 
Old 07-27-2012, 03:26 AM   #79
brianL
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I've said this before in similar threads, and I'll say it again. Slackware is one of the few unique distros out of the 300+ that are active. Let's keep it that way. Don't turn it into a Debian/Fedora clone. If you want something badly that some other distro offers, use that other distro. If you prefer steak to chicken, don't keep eating chicken and wishing it tasted like steak.
 
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:03 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
There is more to automatic DR than just installing packages from a list. It also involves compatibility checking, alternative systems (software A needs a function that can be delivered by software B or software C, but you can't install both) and then there is the whole part of removing software. ...
Well thereyago. Once all that extra stuff is attempted, it's no suprise that things can go horribly wrong very quickly. Once a package manager starts trying to sort out problems on it's own, that's when I'd rather have something to say about it myself. Automation is for things that can be done automatically. AI doesn't exist, if there are tricky decisions to make, I'd rather make them myself.

Hey, do I sound like a natural born Slacker ;-)
 
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:27 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by brianL View Post
I've said this before in similar threads, and I'll say it again. Slackware is one of the few unique distros out of the 300+ that are active. Let's keep it that way. Don't turn it into a Debian/Fedora clone. If you want something badly that some other distro offers, use that other distro. If you prefer steak to chicken, don't keep eating chicken and wishing it tasted like steak.
But, if (if!) there was some intelligent, robust, package manager (vdemuth) with DR for Slackware, surely it would be optional to use it. Surely one could do things the Olde Way if one wanted to. Who would contemplate changing that? I don't think anyone wants Slackware to become a clone of something else. Me, I run a Debian clone right now, and I'm looking to get *away* from it. But it seems that the 'drive' for DR is so strong that it has spawned fragmentation (Salix) maybe for that reason alone. And yes, if I like Salix I should use Salix, but personally I think there's far too much fragmentation in Linux and I'd like the Slackware universe to be unified. Debian lends itself to fragmentation, Slackware does not. If that means some *optional* DR system, then why not? Isn't sbopkg a step in that direction already? And I hear talk of 'slapt-get'--sounds like even dedicated Slackers are hankering for something that emulates apt-get. If existing package managers produce disasters (they do!) then let's fix it. I'd like chicken please, but I'd like to be able to eat it with a knife and fork, and have it cooked first. Folks who like it raw, can always eat it raw, and good for them.

Last edited by rayandrews; 07-27-2012 at 11:29 AM.
 
Old 07-27-2012, 11:41 AM   #82
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayandrews View Post
But, if (if!) there was some intelligent, robust, package manager (vdemuth) with DR for Slackware, surely it would be optional to use it. Surely one could do things the Olde Way if one wanted to. Who would contemplate changing that? I don't think anyone wants Slackware to become a clone of something else. Me, I run a Debian clone right now, and I'm looking to get *away* from it. But it seems that the 'drive' for DR is so strong that it has spawned fragmentation (Salix) maybe for that reason alone. And yes, if I like Salix I should use Salix, but personally I think there's far too much fragmentation in Linux and I'd like the Slackware universe to be unified. Debian lends itself to fragmentation, Slackware does not. If that means some *optional* DR system, then why not? Isn't sbopkg a step in that direction already? And I hear talk of 'slapt-get'--sounds like even dedicated Slackers are hankering for something that emulates apt-get. If existing package managers produce disasters (they do!) then let's fix it. I'd like chicken please, but I'd like to be able to eat it with a knife and fork, and have it cooked first. Folks who like it raw, can always eat it raw, and good for them.
Feel free to implement an intelligent robust package manager for Slackware that has DR and use it. Keep in mind that you have to deliver the complete dependency chain for this package manager, including packages that come from SBo and other third parties. Also, you have not only to convince the Slackware team, but also the SlackBuild maintainers. There was recently a discussion on their mailing list if it would be possible to create a standard way of displaying the dependencies in their scripts' README files, so that they can be parsed by programs. Many of the maintainers don't even want to make that effort. Have fun trying to convince them that there should be an option for DR.

There is also a point that wasn't mentioned here (if I didn't overlook it): DR may make sense on repositories like the ones from Debian with more than 30.000 packages or even the much smaller Arch repository. but it makes not really sense on Slackware's repository. It is anyway recommended to install (almost) the complete repository, so what do you need DR for?

Last edited by TobiSGD; 07-27-2012 at 11:45 AM.
 
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:42 AM   #83
brianL
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If? As an old workmate ("Wigan" Jack) used to say: "If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle."
 
Old 07-27-2012, 12:03 PM   #84
hitest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayandrews View Post
But, if (if!) there was some intelligent, robust, package manager (vdemuth) with DR for Slackware, surely it would be optional to use it.
The lack of dependency resolution in Slackware is a strength, not a deficit. I enjoy the complete control that I have with my Slackware boxes. In my opinion Slackware will never have a dependency resolving package manager. This is a very good thing. You have all of the source files and are of course welcome to write your own package manager.
If it ain't broke, why fix it?
 
Old 07-27-2012, 12:08 PM   #85
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Only 85 posts in this thread so far, mine included... Too bad, I guess that some slackers are on vacation :sigh:

Last edited by Didier Spaier; 07-27-2012 at 12:10 PM.
 
Old 07-27-2012, 12:17 PM   #86
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I'll just throw it out there, why not implementing a package system like crux where the package manager does not keep track of dependecies but they are listed in the build script as "dependecies" (for core ones) and "nice having" (for the optional ones) and the prt-get script simply read the file and install all of them (so it resolves the dependecies) if you want to automate or you can simply handle the single packages yoursef (which doesn't break anything since there's no dependencies tracking).

Last edited by clod89; 07-27-2012 at 12:20 PM.
 
Old 07-27-2012, 12:28 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Feel free to implement an intelligent robust package manager for Slackware that has DR and use it. Keep in mind that you have to deliver the complete dependency chain for this package manager, including packages that come from SBo and other third parties.
Actually, I would say that an intelligent and robust package manager with DR would raise Slackware above any of the efforts currently available from Red Hat, Ubuntu, debian et al and it would also mean the maintainers at SBo and Slackbuilds would have to raise their game to a higher standard, so it would be up to them to deliver the goods to the standard required.

And believe me, if I was clever enough to do so I would do. I could certainly draw the flow and process control diagram, but when it comes to programming, I have neither the skills, nor the time to learn them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Also, you have not only to convince the Slackware team,
Here's the real stumbling block, but dragging them kicking and screaming into the 21st century seems a lost cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
but also the SlackBuild maintainers. There was recently a discussion on their mailing list if it would be possible to create a standard way of displaying the dependencies in their scripts' README files, so that they can be parsed by programs. Many of the maintainers don't even want to make that effort.
What can I say. To easy to be lazy and uninterested in change for the greater good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Have fun trying to convince them that there should be an option for DR.
Not even going there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
There is also a point that wasn't mentioned here (if I didn't overlook it): DR may make sense on repositories like the ones from Debian with more than 30.000 packages or even the much smaller Arch repository. but it makes not really sense on Slackware's repository. It is anyway recommended to install (almost) the complete repository, so what do you need DR for?
Even a full install leaves things out. Don't forget, the full install is what Patrick thinks people might want, not necessarily what they will want.
 
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:54 PM   #88
brianL
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If you find so many faults with Slackware, why are you using it? Is someone holding a gun to your head?
 
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Old 07-27-2012, 01:07 PM   #89
brianL
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"Help! I've been abducted by aliens. They've probed my orifices, and now they're making me run Slackware!!!"
 
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Old 07-27-2012, 01:16 PM   #90
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The Slackware developers team has safely entered the 21st century and still is of the opinion that a package manager should not do any dependency checking. You lose more by DR than you gain. Believe me. Try Ubuntu for a few months, and then report back here. Honest advice, not meant to be arrogant.

Vdemuth - lazy does not even start describing the work of a packager. No matter whether you create a package with dependency information or not, you still have to inform your users of the requirements and dependencies. Lazy people depend on the package manager to process that information for him. Smart people process that information themselves when deciding to install new software they need. You will gain immensely by knowing how your computer's software parts work together.

Eric
 
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