Are we grandfathers?
 

Thought you all might be interested in this short rant from techiemoe.com http://www.techiemoe.com/tech/slackware11.htm.

Moe apparently thinks that GUI installers and scripts that help do things to your system that you don't come close to understanding are a Good Thing, and therefore Slackware and Patrick are Bad.

Moe seems to miss the point that Linux has so many distributions because there are so many personal preferences involved in system choice. Apparently, every distro should be like Ubuntu or it won't get Moe's vote.

Frankly, I couldn't care less what Moe thinks.

Thats Moe and nothing more then an opinion. Who cares? I think Slack is fine and so do many other people. There are people who if wrote an article on any graphical installer would say the same thing about them. It's all bout choice! You like Slack....Use it...Mandriva....Use it...etc... Opinions are like *ssholes and everyone has one!

Regardless of what one thinks of Slackware the Linux distribution, the personal attacks against PV are totally uncalled for. Let's don't give this guy any more press than he's already received through the unfortunate decision of OSNews editors to prominently link to his article.

I think the fact that he can't get his mouse working in Slackware says it all. I say let those who want the distro to do everything for them chose Ubuntu or whatever they feel comfortable with. Slackware is not for everyone. Especially people that are uncomfprtable with the CLI and don't have enough Linux knowledge to manipulate a simple file like xorg.config.

So...he is too stupid to figure out how to properly configure the system, and therefore nobody else should use it?

I see.

For me, I prefer command-lines and scripts (and therefore Slackware's method of doing things) for several reasons, none of which include "understanding things better" - I understand the GUI as much as I do the CLI.

Control is the primary reason. Nothing lets you have control over what your computer does than a command line. Think about it. By the time you've gone into a GUI and it's booted all your programs, it's already run HUNDREDS of programs and settings, hit millions of lines of code, loaded all sorts of libraries and accessed all sorts of systems within the OS.

I want to be able to say to my computer: No. Don't do that. Don't load that. That hard disk is READ-ONLY. Don't touch that file. You don't need to load that program just to show me a mouse cursor.

I'm a professional - the GUI is just that - an interface - one of many possible interfaces. Some are MUCH better than others. I wouldn't want to have to edit a large image from the command-line. I wouldn't want to have to completely re-write my IP/DNS configuration from inside a GUI. I wouldn't want to have to remote-dial into a GUI-only system and I wouldn't want to perform lots of "trivial" file move operations from a command line (especially not with the folder structure that I generally use)... think about moving a random selection of files (say emails) into suitable directories (say, Read, Important, Spam etc.) - you can do it on the CLI, sure, but you can do it QUICKER in a GUI with subject-header preview, multiple windows, etc.

Similarly, it's much easier for me to update my Christmas list using the HTTP interface to some PHP scripts - it's simple, convenient and easy for everyone who needs to access it (and because it's MY Christmas list, I want EVERYONE to see it, even that dotty aunt who can only just type www!)

GUI's are totally impractical for remote-diagnosis of a problem within the "guts" of a system. A command-line is ten times simpler to log into and see what's wrong and fix it. The distro or even the OS has nothing to do with it.

Saying that the lack or otherwise of a GUI is reason enough not to use a particular distro tells you everything you need to know about this person. He's a Windows-Addict. If it doesn't have eight types of button, menu or widget he won't even look at it. He also never does anything "complicated", or if he does, he prefers to use the GUI way, EVERY TIME, even if that takes ten times longer.

Command-lines are THE BEST way to install an OS. Oh, how I miss the DOS-based installs of Windows - which I could recover from the worst atrocities by nothing more than a few tweaks of a BAT or INI file, or even just manual CLI registry backups which could be restored within even needing a bootdisk - Just bypass the AUTOEXEC, fix Windows and THEN boot the GUI.

CLI's don't need five dozen fully-working drivers just to get a desktop from which you can actually START working with the system (I can remember trying to install Windows 3 on Tseng and S3 cards which didn't have "standard" drivers included, pre-VESA standards).

When something goes wrong, even Windows resorts to a CLI, because it's the lowest level of access required to power the machine and fix any problems.

And then you have things that are utterly impossible in GUI's, or so complicated that it's not worth the effort. Locate, Grep and Sed will beat any Windows Find File function hands down, depending on the search you need to do. Why do you think that EVERY programming language is CLI-based, even if it comes with GUI-tools and a GUI-interface or even if you layout programs within it's GUI? Because it's the only way to get stuff done.

GUI's are nothing more than pretty shortcuts to do common tasks. Anyone who "needs" a GUI to install any OS is sadly lacking in computer skill and shouldn't be doing it - they should just go out and buy pre-installed stuff instead.

It's like shortcut keys vs menus. Sure, I like having menus in my word processor because I don't want to have to memorise seven hundred shortcuts. But also, Ctrl-C, Alt-Tab, Ctrl-V is a million times quicker than doing the equivalent with a mouse, no matter how fast you are at using the mouse, and works on Windows and X-Windows (at least KDE) alike. Equally, GUI drag-drop is a vast improvement over command-line methods in some cases.

Personally, I find Slackware's install process a major plus and was one reason why I chose Slackware. DOS was familiar to me at the time. Windows was nothing more than a few DOS shortcuts in pretty clothes. Even today, Slackware boots and installs on ANY computer, no matter how old, whether they've even got a display or not (wanna run a GUI over a serial cable? I think not!).

When something is even REMOTELY considering accessing the partition structure on my OS, I want to make absolutely sure that it's not defragging (or whatever) that same partition in the background and that a single mis-click won't result in wiping out Gb's of data. With a CLI, when it comes to partitioning, I can carefully type the entire line (with a safety # at the start just in case I hit enter accidentally), check it over several times and then execute when I'm ready. With a GUI, you get three options in a menu and you just click any one and it goes for it - Fine for when you're choosing your screensaver, not something I want to do when it's playing with the internals of a disk - a disk that it may even be running the GUI itself from!

If I'm doing a very complex command on a CLI several times over several disks, I can do it very carefully once and then just recall and change the partition name. You can't really do that from a GUI.

The CLI means that I'm in control. If I want to Ctrl-C in the middle of an install, I can. If I want it to pause after each package while I simultaneously clear up space via another virtual console, I can. If I want to set up a RAID to install on, whether or not the installer "could" do it for me, I can. GUI's only ever give you the options that their creators WANT you to have. Usually that means you end up with a canned config.

I don't WANT a canned config. It would be of no use to me at all. Every system I have is designed for a purpose and does it's job. A lot of the time that means that I want to control every aspect of the install, or that it can't even be DONE via GUI (serial installs, SSH installs etc.).

For the average Joe who wants Slackware to be Windows, of course they'll be disappointed. But for people who KNOW what they are doing, you can shove your GUI up your backside - I want to see what block size you've chosen, what you're installing onto, and change every tiny option that I like BEFORE you even start to install. The GUI's the last thing that I ever bother to get working on any system and at least 50% of the machines that I use don't even HAVE one.

Just another person that doesn't read the README or INSTALL file before doing it, he didn't install 2.6 modules which are needed to get mouse support with test26.s, big news...

I was initially angry with the vile article, particularly the name calling directed at Patrick. But, after reading the article I realized that the author is ignorant about Slackware.
Everyone has a right to their opinion.......even stupid people it seems. I'm surprised that osnews linked to that article.

I had read a couple of his previous Slackware reviews and just came to the conclusion that he just didn't quite get it. Looks like this is still the case.

I wasted 5 minutes of my life reading that crap.

What an idiot.
Apparently...

I think he does has some valid points.

Slackware is not perfect, and I don't believe that it is suitable for an everyday-use desktop or laptop system. It involves a lot of thinking to do relatively trivial tasks.

As for the installation, the Ncurses interface doesn't bother me. However, while it is not difficult to install the kernel modules after installation, why not automatically install them? If you select the huge26.s kernel, then why can't the installer install the relevant modules, or at least ask you "Do you want to install the kernel modules?" Also, why is only the 2.4 kernel source installed even if you select the huge26.s kernel?

Having said that, being command line based is a good thing. Command line always works, X11 can be tempermental. I think it would be nice if the package manager checked dependencies, like apt on Debian. Perhaps if slapt-get was an official part of Slackware, then we would have the best of both worlds.

I also think that the attacks on pat are uncalled for.

--Ian

Odd, I always though Slackware was by far the easiest distro to use. I always get utterly confused when it comes to all the user-friendly additions other distos include now-a-days.
I think he needs to read the General Info page about Slackware.

If it did I wouldn't use Slackware. I hate automated dependancy checking.

Slackware is what it is. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it.

TechieMoe??
 

What shits me is that both Newsforge and OS News linked to this FW like he had anything intelligent to say.

Personal Remarks = Immature FW = no credibility

Strange, I use Debian on my server and Slackware on my desktop and my laptop. I find it especially suitable for everyday use, and my girlfriend, who's only used to windows, has no problems using it every now and then without having to think a lot about it.

If you don't like text files, then what are you using Slackware for, you twat.

And that's what source code was invented for...

.

Drivel. I've been using Slackware exclusively for years, on desktops and laptops. What's the problem?

This is called "learning". Think. Learn. Do. Rinse and repeat. In any case, if you have to think, then it isn't trivial (for you). First you crawl, then you walk, then you run. Nobody can learn to walk for you.

Indeed. I attempted a quick install of Mandrake a year or so ago and couldn't even partition the drive the way I wanted. Within 20 seconds, I was sreaming for fdisk. 10 seconds later, I gave up.

Had similar problem with Mandriva about a year ago.

Also ncurses=GUI in my book.

its funny that the first half of the article he lists all the things i love about slackware, and the second half he complains that he doesnt know how to use linux without a gui making all the descisions for him.

Also:
"He doesn't include any scripts that might make using his system easier for those of us not interested in dicking around with text files every hour of every day..."

Personally I find that if I change a config file once, it stays that way, you know since there arent any scripts trying to change it back without my permission...

Aarrgh! Flashbacks of SuSEconfig. Nooooooooooooooo!

I think part of the issues raised by the article revolve around hardware. Obviously Moe has some quite modern hardware not supported by the 2.4 kernel, at least without much investigation. I've never had any problems with Slackware from Slackware 2.2 on, but I'm a programmer. Moe has a bit to learn, I fear. Slackware's stability, at least from my perspective, is wonderful, but I must admit, I grew up with the command line. I've always thought dragon's are mythical beasts, and have never understood why people often comment on the dragon drop characteristics of certain pieces of software.

Heh, I installed Mandrake 8 I believe. Found it hard to get things working. Installed Slack shortly later and been using it on my desktop for the last few years.

But in the same respect that we have a right to our own distro, he can say what he wants. Just like everything else in the Linux community we can choose to care. Personally I don't, just annoyed at having wasted the time reading it.

Hehe, same here. I know people who said they'd abandon Linux if they hadn't met Slackware. One of them was not an English speaker, so the majority of the web material wasn't available to him but with a bit of patience he learned all he needed to know (he uses Slack and BSD today, and helps others). This author is a bit on the lazy side it seems. Yes, Slack will not work out of the box as, say, Ubuntu does, but who said it will? Pat isn't trying to make Linux difficult, he's actually making it very easy for the more experienced users.

Some people think that GUI always makes things easier. It's like saying that calculators make math easier. They don't. They make the trivial tasks easy, but aren't good for anything else and they don't improve your knowledge or understanding a bit.

Basically, what I meant was that some tasks are easier on other distros - not necessarily GUI.

I love tinkering with Slackware - however I also have work to do. Slackware takes more effort than some other distros to get up and running as a desktop system.

A "trivial task" that I meant was installing software. apt-get makes it easy, Slackware's tgz packages make it unesesarily hard. Why can't there be a package manager such as slapt-get, that uses the same tgz packages. Slapt-get could do dependency checking, etc, while installpkg would still be there for those people who don't like this.

Another thing is installation - I did a "full install" of Slack 11, with everything except KDEI. Since I need the 2.6 kernel, why weren't the kernel modules installed during installation, or at least I could have been asked if I wanted them or not.

Once Slackware is up and running, it is great in terms of stability.

--Ian

I think PV realizes you can't possibly idiot-proof an OS and so he doesn't even try. Besides if you do try to idiot-proof your OS you'll only end up with something like Microsoft Windows. Thats an out-right lie. Just look through the Changelog and you'll see Pat thanking people for pointing out a better way to do something, writing a better script or fixing a bug.

The funny thing is, you can tell by reading this review that this guy would really love to be able to say "I use Slackware." But he's not smart enough to get it working and that is really what has him ticked at PV.

The real issue here is, the article got a public appearance. It wouldn't matter what he thought as long has he wasn't famously put on a pedestal for everyone to possibly think that he is correct. If anyone has noticed, the media thrives off of these kinds of things, extreme directions in thoughts and lots of emotion. They seem to think that people love to hear the hardships, brutality, and conspiracy. When someone like this comes along, they always get attention, because it's so "different". People really need to know the opposite, being more positive on things rather than the pessimism. It's important that us slackers report our happiness so that when someone like this that has the ambition, it's not so detrimental to people that would be discouraged by slackware without even trying it.

These sorts of people like whoever wrote the article, need help, not punishment. He needs articles, HOWTO's and testimonials that we have given, and maybe there will be light for him. Point is, we aren't helping slackware from taking a beating as long as we demean this person, so that when 11.2 comes out, he can't do it again.

Love thy enemy and honor his name, his conversion could end up a wealth of support for the slackware community. I challenge anyone who opposes this.

Sometimes the greatest love is to honestly tell him that he is an idiot, then help him gain enlightenment, whatever enlightenment means.

Not to mention that by trying to make it idiot proof, you only drive the evolution of more capable/destructive idiots.

The problem is, he's not *asking* for help. He's stating that Slackware doesn't work the way he wants/expects, therefore it's crap, which is nonsense. If he'd said, say, "Hey, I can't do this", or "I'm having trouble configuring that", then undoubtedly hordes or Slackware users would be more than happy to help, me included. As it is though, all he's doing is giving the impression that he's a moron and isn't worth the effort. The first step to enlightenment is accepting that your wild-assed assumptions might not actually be written in stone after all.

Personally, I find it to be the easiest to install, configure, and use, as I'm sure a lot of other Slack users do. Everything other distro I've used is obfuscating bloat in comparison (debian excluded). One is never sure what is actually going on behind all that fluffy installation gimmickery. I use Slackware because it stays out of my face and doesn't try to "magically" configure my system without telling me what's it's doing.

...

If you see someone crying do you comfort them without them asking? Or if someone is having problems, do you lend a hand only if they request it? I am seeing that the above is a cry for help. I don't see the point in "all he's doing is giving the impression that he's a moron" that statement. It seems too easy of an out. There is nothing wrong with compiling a list of "Here is x, x, x and after that you should have better luck with slackware." outcasting someone and calling them "moron" only separates them from us, when what we really want is people to agree that slackware IS a good distro, and Patrick is NOT what he is saying.

But I can't *see* him, that's the point. He lives on a different continent to me. Nobody can magically see into his house to ascertain if he's having problems installing Slackware.

"At this point I gave up."

Quite. No searching of forums, no posting queries anywhere. How is anyone supposed to help him if he doesn't let them know he needs help. The greatest strength of Linux is the user community, not some distros flashy installer. But I'm not telepathic and I don't know anyone who is, and in a community that communicates via email and the web, if you don't ask, you don't get.

Likely, I would.
There are a lot people so proud of themselves that prefer to eat dirt than get help to move on their problems.
If someone has a problem and has chosen be stucked in that problem and solve it himself, that is his own choice and I should not try to interfere with that. If that person chooses to ask for help, help he shall get and I would be willing for help him if I can. It's a matter of freedom, I wouldn't meddle with someone else's freedom. The least someone can do is to acknowledge his own weaknesses and ask for some support, it won't be denied, not in this community.

In a large way I agree with the notion that since he did not approach the community, then we cannot offer our generous services, only if I were to look through the prism of forums and e-mails and how help is distributed along with communication.

Since he did not ask nor deny help from his problems :

then it is not up to us that when people like him/her make public annoucements like he did, that he is useless, he is a "moron" and we should just label him that and give up. To think that there isn't anything left to be done here for this person and to just label him I think is a mistake. So that is why I think we have things a little misoriented here. What I mean by that is:

Most of us probably don't know him on a 1 to 1 personal level. that is fine. So when people like that speak up, we don't give them certain luxeries as if we would know him on a personal level. If a liked or loved one were to come off to you as "having a problem" wouldn't you say "I am here if you need me." ? Can't we do the same thing in this case with this persons problems?

His freedom was to openly reject some of the slackware software, and some of the community (mainly Patrick). It is our freedom to let him know "We are here if you have problems." Where as maybe other distros may not. I doubt that though. I am saying that we can do something, rather than making his name mud.

That is the only gripe I have with Slackware installations. But like you said, installing them after the fact is a fairly straight forward proccess.

I switched my server machine back over to Slackware from Ubuntu ( Was trying to decide if I liked it or not) as soon as SW11 came out and have not had one crash or hicup. Ubuntu was slow and IMHO confusing. I'm more at home using the CLI on Slackware then I am using a GUI interface on any Distro. The layout of Slackware is easy to understand and everything is where it should be, not buried somewhere.

I also switched my new laptop from Ubuntu to Slackware. Other then an issue (conflict somewhere) with SMP kernels, Nvidia drivers, and Ndiswrapper, it runs great. I am running a recompiled kernel based on the huge26.s config. I left out SMP support and it runs fine. I have read about a fix for it, but am not really that concerned about using an SMP kernel.

Ok - here's my two pence worth. I am right now on an Xp pro machine using iexplore as I'm not at my house on my Slack 11 box. I jumped in to this thread to pass comment on how my learning experience (re nix) has been enhanced by :-

(1.) The configurability of Slackware,
(2.) The amount of info available on Slackware/Linux in general and
(3.) The response from the community via a forum such as this.

Maybe a bit about my background will better put all this into perspective. I have over 20 years experience of IT in general on a X86 platform and (although I'm no expert) experience of x86 assembler, device driver development, C , Dos, Win SDK , etc. The freedom of information and the general camaraderie of the Linux community amazes me. Yes - my baptism by fire of Slackware ( I have been avidly using for about 3 months now ) has certainly enhanced my knowledge of how Linux works (i.e. the kernel, installing apps - dependencies , libraries how to get help etc.) Anyone who has come up through the ranks on a Msdos, Windows platform will agree that the 'lock in' proprietary nature of the traditional Wintel OS's made it nigh on impossible to get information on the low level workings of the OS. Oddly enough - this is my second attempt to post - on my first attempt after getting about this far - Xp told me "explorer has encountered a problem and needs to shutdown" - this was a modal window giving me no opportunity to copy my post so far ( as in save my typing) and paste to a text file before restart. On restart I got "drive D has not been formatted - format now" or words to that effect !!! Whoa -- I rest my case....

Cheers

Kingscriber, you make some fair points. But the bloke isn't doing himself any favours making unfounded assumptions and running off on some tangent. bgeddy highlights an important issue though; with the locked-in "keep everyone separated" paradigm of commercial software (especially MS software), I doubt that many Windows users feel like the're part of a community, so perhaps the're unaware of how much help and generosity there actually is over here in Free Software land. Anyway, you're right, we really ought to strive to "show him the way", though his somewhat blinkered attitude makes that harder than it should be.

What a useless article. Not to rehash what's already been said, but the guy seems to have a major chip on his shoulder about Patrick, and at least from my point of view he wrote the "review" more for the purposes of personally attacking PV than to objectively cover the Slack v11 release. As they say

I think the problem is he is jealous of Pat, wishing he could build a distro like him, but is unable to do so because either a lack of understanding, laziness, or both. I tried RH7&9, FC3&4, Debian Sarge, Mandrake, and SuSe before settling on Slackware. I even tried Arch and LFS, but got lost because I don't know the files etc, since I am coming from a Windows background. Slack was the one that got me up and running, with very intuitive process' for the install and setup. I am learning, bit by bit, how to administer a Linux box, and so far I am loving it. This guy just seems to want a free OS like Windows in which he has to do minimal effort for it to "just work".

What does it say when a 17-year old who'd never seen a Bourne shell in his life tried Linux for the first time on an old piece-of-crap Pentium, managed to get it working with his ability to read and Google, and has since been using the same distribution, having tried more than a few, ever since he got onto the Linux track?

Well, it says that I'm overqualified to be a technology columnist, I guess.

OSNews is the only news site I've seen that's so desperate for readers that they'll actually encourage flame wars to raise the number of comments.

Go figure.

I don't care for a lot of the things that Patrick does (and I, somewhat more than most, have reason to disagree) but this guy's "review" is just another bullshit diatribe against something the author doesn't like. It's amateurish, and probably best if people just ignored it. I somewhat doubt the author will find his work picked up by any serious news agencies any time soon.

Could you elaborate on that? I don't know if this is the correct place to do it...but if you can, would you? If not, is there a blog or some spot that I can goto that has your comments?

Weeeee loooook its Patrick's land when I install slack. The thing is, its closer to what my land should look like and I can change it so quite easily.

Anyone else who doesn't like Pat could go soak their head...he and his one man sucessful army quest!